Schackenborg Castle, Tønder

[Duc_et_Pair]

I see. It would have been a fantastic residence for Princess Isabella, Prince Vincent or Princess Joséphine. Too bad that Shackenborg is now lost for the royal family.

 

[princess gertrude]

Well, I don't see why Joachim should pay to Alexandra. She got her share of the worth of the estate when she divorced Joachim. Not only that but she is in the process of being divorced from her second husband. Why should the first husband keep paying?

After all if Joachim is supposed to pay Alexandra's full apanage for the rest of her life, he'll soon have no fortune to hand over to his children.

It is however an additional argument for stripping Alexandra of her apanage. Since Joachim and Alexandra combined should surely be able to ensure Nikolai and Felix grow up in a "suitable lifestyle befitting their status".
But still I don't think that will happen until Felix turn eighteen.



QUOTE] I completely agree. The minute she said "I do" to Martin the her apanage should have stopped. I can certainly understand child support for Nikolai and Felix, but I don't think she should be getting any money from Joachim. And quite right, if he keeps paying her, the kids will have no inheritance.

 

[polyesco]

yeah. I agree somewhat.
Definitely by the time Felix turns 18.
I just don't think the government should pay anymore for Joachim's first wife, when he is now a very wealthy man. It would earn him some "brownie" points with the public if Alexandra's appendage would stop.
right or wrong, but Alexandra receiving money from the state still reflects (badly) on Joachim, I think.

Dont get me wrong, Im not saying he should pay off her debt or a new home or anything like that, but if he comes out and says, I dont know, that he would now be the one covering the appendage or something similar for his sons. Alexandra already got a good deal and that should be it.

on another note, will the sales of the lands be taxed? or all profits go to Joachim

 

[Jacknch]

I think it's a shame that the lands are being sold, but I guess if no one is prepared to farm them from the estate it would make sense to sell the parcels to someone who will.

 

[Muhler]

I don't know how much it reflects on Joachim that Alexandra keeps getting her apanage. There are of course some who think Joachim should pay, but it's my clear impression that it's mainly Alexandra herself who gets the heat, when the topic is raised from time to time.

It will increasingly be more and more difficult to justify Alexandra's apanage once Felix has turned eighteen. But until then I think she will left alone from the politicians, even though several have voiced the idea of having a look at her apanage.

It's fair that Joachim pay half the expenses for his children, should Alexandra lose her apanage. And I'm sure he does foot his part of the bill of Nikolai going to boarding school, but Alexandra receive more and apanage than Mary! Nikolai in Felix don't cost more than two million DKK a year, in schooling, food, clothing and so on. That would be around eight times the average income of an ordinary adult working Dane. I flatly refuse to believe the expenses for Nikolai and Felix amounts to that much.
So most of the money would go to Alexandra.
And Joachim is not even her ex-husband anymore, he's her ex-ex-husband. Why should he pay? Especially as she's hardly living in a two-room flat in a social housing complex.

 

[polyesco]

thanks Muhler.
I agree it shouldn't reflect on Joachim but indirectly at least for me when I think of Alexandra and her appendage, I think of Joachim. and with more articles on his large wealth and articles on his ex-wife's still receiving money ..well the two intertwine a bit

But yes. Definitely by the time Felix is 18.
and wow more than Mary?, maybe Mary needs to ask for a raise

will the sales of the lands be taxed?

 

[Terri Terri]

Ok! So Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik paid a a great deal of money for this estate originally, right? So I would imagine that Prince Joachim would have repaid his parents that money since he is now so wealthy? At least, I hope he has. He did put the amount that he and Alexandra received for a wedding gift back into the fund established for the sale of the estate. And what about the time of his divorce from Alexandra...didn't his parents also assist him financially? So I would imagine he could well afford to repay his parents now as well.
I know this is not the right topic...but isn't CP Frederik supposed to inherit the private estate in the south of France - Chateaux de Caix, since Joachim had Shakenborg? I would think that a wine estate in the south of France would worth more that a farm in southern Denmark if Caix was sold in the future.
As for Mary receiving less appanage than Alexandra....remember that Mary has the use of the palaces, cars, staff etc that is paid by Frederik's appanage. I think that Alexandra's appanage has to pay for all of those things out of her state funded income, which is also taxed.

 

[Muhler]

Mary had, has and is expected to have considerable more commitments than Alexandra
Alexandra got divorced at a time when the economy was booming and I think that reflects on the generous deal she got.

As for paying back his parents. Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't.
I mean it wasn't Joachim who decided he was to take over Schackenborg and it wasn't Joachim who should have kept a closer eye on the state of the estate. - "Here you are, son. This ruin is now yours. Have a nice life".
Perhaps Joachim got the help as a kind of advance on his inheritance? And now he doesn't need it.

It would indeed be nice to see Schackenborg being taken over by Nikolai, Felix, Henrik or Athena.
But the value of the estate would have to be divided into four parts upon the death of J&M. Even a family foundation would be doubtful. I'm far from sure Schackenborg would have been able to support four families. Two perhaps, but not four.

As for Cayx. Well, I think it was decided that while a prince consort can find time to look after a chateau in France, there is no way a very active king and queen can.
And Joachim may have wowed never ever to have anything to do with running a manor or a chateau again!

I think it's realistic to hope that eventually M&F's children will settle more or less permanently with their families at Marselisborg, Gråsten and Sorgenfri and perhaps Kancellihuset at Fredensborg as well. - But not all four. I believe at least one of them will marry and settle abroad somewhere. - Perhaps Australia?

As for Joachim paying taxes of his income of Schackenborg. I don't know.
And I don't know how many tax-deductions he would have been able to make if he did. (Quite a few I'd imagine!)

 

[tommy100]

I think maybe the Queen and Henrik hoped that Schackenborg would solve a few problems, provide a suitable royal home for that side of the family, provide and income to Joachim and his family and give him something to look after and work on. Unfortunately it all seems to have been too much for Joachim to cope with, especially financially. I agree that with 4 children for Joachim now it would be harder to give the estate away in a way that would provide something usable to the next generation - if Joachim only had 2 kids Nikolai could have moved into the main house and Felix could have been accommodated in another house on the Estate with maybe both of them running it. Now though a 4 way split would be too hard.

I think, IMO, its ridiculous that Alex gets an allowance from the State for her divorce, I think it would be a wonderful thing for Joachim to offer her a lump sum (from the sale of their former home) to invest in return for giving up her allowance, but I know this isn't going to happen. But to me its not Alex's fault that the DRF agreed a deal for the state to pay her after her divorce.

Out of interest does Joachim have other property/investments to rely on for income or, now he has sold Schackenborg, does he only have his allowance from the State to provide income?

 

[rebbevb]

Where do TRH'S live now ?

 

[Muhler]

In a large villa, north of Copenhagen. You will find info and location in the general thread, because there is no specific thread for their new home.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Schackenborg Castle has extensive gardens and a working farm. This includes a Christmas tree farm.
Schackenborg Palace – The Royal Post

 

[Muhler]

This is interesting!

Joachim has for the first time spoken about the reasons behind the sale of Schackenborg and he is IMO pretty frank.
Prins Joachim har for første gang kommenteret sin flytning til København - Indland

He gave an interview to the financial magazine Børsen (the DK equivalent of Financial Times in regards to seriousness). I'll look for that article later when I get more time.

In that interview Joachim is quoted for saying: (Danish and translation):

Det var et opgør med egne ambitioner og illusioner, at det, man egentlig havde sat sig for skulle være ens livsgerning og renommé, ikke bare skulle tages op til revision, men faktisk også ændres. Det var at stå ansigt til ansigt med en virkelighed, som de færreste måske var helt klar over,«

"It was taking a stand with you own ambitions and illusions and the fact that what you intended should be the accomplishment of your life/your work for life/life's work and reputation, not only had to be taken up for review, but actually also changed.
That was facing a reality that few perhaps realized".

Prins Joachim siger, at han »af 10 millioner gode grunde« ikke var nok til stede i sin virksomhed på slottet.
»Måske skulle jeg have gjort op noget før: Står det her mål med virkeligheden? Er der hold i det her?,« siger han.


Prince Joachim says that he "for 10 million good reasons wasn't there enough in his business at the manor.
Perhaps I should have taken stock before: Is this compatible with the real world? Does it swim", he says.

 

[polyesco]

interesting.
I thought one of the reasons stated years ago was that Joachim wanted to pick up more royal duties (which really has not happened) or that it was hard to do both the farm and royal duties.

Now he is doing courses with the army defense.
thanks for the article

 

[lyndaW]

think after 20-years he really tried...............don't forget he has always suffered from asthma....he could and would do well if the Queen would let he and Marie do more...................but he could NEVER ever over shaddow his brother & his wife...that is rather hard
He has always been for want is best for Denmark and its culture & tradition...............he is very articulate in several languages (Danish,French,English,German,wee bit of Spanish------------------------------not sure about Greenlands language).........
Now he Danish media keeps knocking him down-for what ever reason..actually I do not understand why he gets just poor media attention
is it ONLY to beef up his brother and his wife............

 

[Muhler]

Joachim is a man who has his demeanor against him. - In other words: He is not easy to like.

You have to take a closer look at him and no doubt get to know him, before you realize that he is perhaps not so arrogant as he appears.
Joachim is not folksy. He is not a peoples-person and he is also a bit old-fashioned.
On top of that he is very intelligent and very articulate - that can make it difficult to find him endearing as well... unfortunately.
That makes him easy to dislike and as we all know, every good soap-opera needs a villain or at least an unlikable character. - That character is Joachim.

Joachim is IMO a complicated person who deserve a better press than what he is getting. But that is unlikely to happen until someone come along who suits the role as the dislikable member of the DRF better.

And I agree with you.
Joachim was told as a child that you are going to get a manor and be a farmer. That's your life - regardless of your dreams, interests and abilities.
On top of that Schackenborg was neglected and worn down.

So yes, Joachim tried and failed. Better and more talented men than him have failed too in a similar situation.

It didn't exactly help either that he had to sell off a considerable asset in order to finance Alexandra's house after the divorce.

Yet, Schackenborg was modernized, restructured and rationalized - at a huge cost due to investments.
And with four children, it's difficult to divide a manor (with debts) into four portions.

I see elsewhere that Joachim seems to have been quoted for saying that he should have sold Schackenborg earlier.
Perhaps he should never have taken over the place.

I do not agree with you that the heat Joachim is getting is to beef up M&F.
However, and I know this may be considered controversial, the criticism Frederik got earlier on in particular would have been much worse had Joachim not been around.

 

[carlota]

interesting views, mulher. i didn't know that about joachim. however, it makes me feel sorry for him that he is the 'punching ball' of the family. despite his demeanor, he hasn't really done anything wrong. even when he got backlashed during his divorce to alexandra, i feel the media may have been biased: seeing how alexandra divorced martin airing her personal life out to the media, maybe she wasn't that much of a saint in the time leading up to the divorce from joachim.

i am somewhat surprised as well to read that he is snobbish and not that friendly/likeable as marie comes across as being very down to earth and not at all arrogant.

 

[MARG]

Hmm, it is noteworthy that Joachim had the guts to say "I failed, I am not a good farmer and, in point if fact, I never really wanted to be a farmer at all!" I have to admit 'Joachim' and 'farmer' seemed a strange match to me. He alway came across as fashion conscious, cultured, urbane, erudite and reserved, everything your average farmer is not!

I always thought that he would be at home going to the theatre, the opera, the ballet, anything rather than tending crops or animals. I also thought that having given up Schackenborg and moved to the city, both he and Marie would have a far higher profile and carry out more royal engagements. That does not appear to be the case.

 

[Muhler]

I more imagined Joachim being at home in the world of diplomacy and business.

And true, despite Joachim's work for the Defense Command, he does need to step up his workload, since he is getting an apanage.

 

[maria-olivia]

He should have be an excellent Diplomat ,one of his best performance is to be Elegant.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Prince George of Denmark was the Danish Ambassador in the Netherlands. So there is a Danish example.

Picture: Prince George and Princess Anne of Denmark née Bowes Lyon formerly the Countess of Lichfield at the State Banquet in honour of Queen Margrethe, in Amsterdam: http://www.anp-archief.nl/attachment/47226

 

[Queen Claude]

I more imagined Joachim being at home in the world of diplomacy and business.

And true, despite Joachim's work for the Defense Command, he does need to step up his workload, since he is getting an apanage.

How much is his apanage, if memory serves it is a fraction of his brother, the heir, but maybe I am mis-remembering. I think that Joachim should not be expected to work at the same level as Fred because he, like most spares, is a stopgap until the younger heir comes of age. IMO spares like Joachim, Carl Philip, Harry and other should get funding to carry out royal duties but at the same time they need to be given enough leeway to build a non-royal life for themselves and their families since they are not expected to be mainline royals for all of their lives.

As controversial as the whole Schackenborg matter seems to be, it served its purpose which is to give the spare assets and income to make his own way. In the end Joachim decided he did not want to run Schackenborg and cashed out which is fine by me, now he has to use the windfall to support his family and hopefully provide a decent inheritance for his four children.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

If I am correct, Prince Joachim receives around half a million US Dollars in apanage. That is generous: his "colleague" Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands receives zero.

 

[Queen Claude]

Different country, different bookkeeping. Sweden's spares also receive zero but they are compensated out of the monarch's fund.

To me it's about relativity, for example, if Joachim's apanage is 1/3 of Frederik's and his royal work is 1/10 of Frederik's, then that not is OK, but if Joachim's apanage is 1/3 of Frederik's and his royal work is 1/3 of Frederik's then that is OK, assuming that I do not have a problem with how the overall funding that the Danish Royal Family receives.

 

[maria-olivia]

Schnackenborg Castle was a personal present to Prince Joachim.

 

[lyndaW]

Oh my, looks like I opened a can of worms................
Do not forget that lovely Marie gets -0- income for all her appearances.
..........and CP Mary gets 10% (to use as she sees fit) of Fred income for her own use in her name +++++plus the use of Freds income...and it is a lot.................
Alex was a good Princess until SHE defaulted.....just after she & Martin did the project together.....she hooked up with Martin & left Joachim hanging (not a very good year for Joahim----I think he really didn't see it coming----and YES he did act out)..but who would not have...and for that (after many years of great service to Denmark) he was and is still bashed by the media....

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Different country, different bookkeeping. Sweden's spares also receive zero but they are compensated out of the monarch's fund.

To me it's about relativity, for example, if Joachim's apanage is 1/3 of Frederik's and his royal work is 1/10 of Frederik's, then that not is OK, but if Joachim's apanage is 1/3 of Frederik's and his royal work is 1/3 of Frederik's then that is OK, assuming that I do not have a problem with how the overall funding that the Danish Royal Family receives.

That is the same in the Dutch situation: the expenses of Prince Comstantijn are met by his brother, the King, but that is not the same as receiving an annual income of half a million dollars. It is really a generous arrangement by the State of Denmark.

 

[FasterB]

Apanage in the DRF as per 1st October 2016

QMII: US$ 1000662,69 pr. month
Prince Henrik: 10% =US$100066,19 pr. month
Princess Benedikte: 1,5% = US$ 15009,94 pr. month
CP Frederik: US$ 246309,55 pr. month
CPss Mary: US$ 24630,96 pr. month
Prince Joachim: US$ 43535.57 pr. month

 

[Queen Claude]

That is the same in the Dutch situation: the expenses of Prince Comstantijn are met by his brother, the King, but that is not the same as receiving an annual income of half a million dollars. It is really a generous arrangement by the State of Denmark.

To the extent that it is different I prefer the Danish scenario because it is actually disclosed how much funding their working royals receive.

 

[MissByrd]

Prince George of Denmark was the Danish Ambassador in the Netherlands. So there is a Danish example.

Picture: Prince George and Princess Anne of Denmark née Bowes Lyon formerly the Countess of Lichfield at the State Banquet in honour of Queen Margrethe, in Amsterdam: http://www.anp-archief.nl/attachment/47226

Thanks for posting this great old picture. Love old pictures.
I, too, could see Joachim as a diplomat, rather than a farmer/business man. For a farmer is a business man! It seems to me that Marie has been an asset to him in many ways. And, hopefully, he will continue to find his own niche.