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  #101  
Old 07-10-2012, 11:33 AM
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The point is that those descendants of the Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh who "require" a surname use "Mountbatten-Windsor".

When do they require a surname? I can think only of the wedding register?
How about a passport?

Those with a title never require a surname, they use their title instead, as is custom within the Uk peerage.

All male descendants of the queen got a title of their own before they wed. Thus they did not need a surname.

Princess Anne did not get a title on her wedding, thus she signed "Anne Mountbatten-Windsor". If her mother hadn't been queen on her marriage day, she could have used her title of "Princess Anne of Edinburgh" and signed "Anne Edinburgh". Once she was the queen's daughter, she did not share her father's Royal Ducal title anymore, so had none and used the "Mountbatten-Windsor" as decreed.

Beatrice, Eugenie and Harry are the children of a Royal Duke/Prince, thus use their father's title as a surname as is tradition with the children of Royal peers. Thus Beatrice is Beatrice York, Eugenie is Eugenie York and Harry is Harry Wales. William used to be William Wales, is now William Cambridge, but decided to stick with the "Wales" name as long as he is a serving officer. There's a lot of precedence within the aristocracy that heirs kept their old surname even once they succeeded to the main title for their professional purposes.

Prince James of Wessex is known as James Viscount Severn - when he marries as long as his father is still The Earl of Wessex, he will sign the register as James Severn. His sister Louise will sign it as "Louise Mountbatten-Windsor" as she has no title of her own (the Lady is "by courtesy" only) and she does not use the "Princess Louise of Wessex". In that case she didn't need a surname but uses Louise Wessex instead.
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  #102  
Old 07-10-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ive View Post
my english is not good enough to understand this joke...

But I think you do not like her and her name sounds like something stupid and she not deserves the name M-W
First of all, welcome to TRF! I think your command of the English language is excellent!

I think with William and Harry using Wales in the armed services, they are just omitting the "of" part and the same goes for Beatrice and Eugenie.

As with the use of a former surname, it doesn't actually make me angry but is more along the lines of an annoyance that rubs me the wrong way. I have learned so much about royalty and titles and styles and the ins and outs of protocol and what's correct and not correct to use since I joined here 4 years ago when I came here originally for Ascot hats on a whim.

I think that what royalistbert was chuckling about was that over the years since Charles and Camilla married, Camilla is referred to most times now as The Duchess of Cornwall rather than Camilla Parker-Bowles which was something the Daily Mail had a penchant for doing.

These ladies have not found a loophole anywhere as far as surnames go as being married to their husbands, they would take their surnames (and titles and styles) from their husbands. I think that as titled royalty and really never using surnames, the media just opts out to use their former surnames which, to me, isn't very correct and is kind of unflattering to the woman.
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  #103  
Old 07-10-2012, 12:43 PM
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So, potentially the firstborn daughter of a future King William V and Queen Catherine who marries a chap with the surname McDonald, would have children with the surname Mountbatten-Windsor-McDonald. The royal house would still be Windsor, though. Have I got that right?

I'd be tempted to simply issues LPs, or include in the coming legislation across the Commonwealth realms to change the succession rights to the British throne, that every monarch and heir to the throne whether male or female in future will bear the surname of Windsor, full stop.
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  #104  
Old 07-10-2012, 12:50 PM
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It's pretty simple, actually.

All the descendants of the Queen and Prince Philip who have the style of Royal Highness and the title of British Prince/Princess belong to the House and Family of Windsor.

All the descendants of the Queen and Prince Philip who do not have the style of Royal Highness and the title of British Prince/Princess belong to the House of Windsor but Family of Mountbatten-Windsor (the latter being their surname).

The first-born daughter of William V and Queen Catherine will be a Princess and a Royal Highness; as such, her surname and house name will be Windsor.
If she's a first-born child of the couple, she will most probably be Heiress Apparent to the Throne; it is thus likely Letters Patent will be issued to guarantee the House name remains Windsor, repeating the situation with Prince Philip. If she is the first-born daughter but not child (in short, if she has an elder brother), then her maiden name will be Windsor. When she marries a Mr McDonald, she'll become Her Royal Highness Princess X, Mrs McDonald.
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  #105  
Old 07-10-2012, 01:03 PM
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Ive,
Neither Catherine or Camilla use a surname because they are British Royal Highnesses so they have no need for one. They are formally known by their titles HRH The Duchess of Cambridge and HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. Sometimes our press just like to dumb things down and use their maiden names as if the public couldn't figure out who is who in the BRF. If for some reason they were to need a surname it would be Mountbatten-Windsor.

Prince Charles sons were known as HRH Prince William of Wales (before he was created a duke) and HRH Prince Harry of Wales. For simplicity they are known in the service as William Wales and Harry Wales along with their military ranks. No need to use formal royal titles in the service where military rank is more important, and a hyphenated surname can be rather cumbersome.
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  #106  
Old 07-10-2012, 01:42 PM
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It really bothers me when they refer to the wives as Camilla Parker-Bowles, Sophie Rhys-Jones and Kate Middleton, but I guess it's going to happen for the rest of their lives in the Royal family so we should get used to it.

When Edward owned his own company he went by Edward Windsor, not Mountbatten-Windsor. There were articles around the time of Sophie's pregnancy with Louise that stated that a daugther for Edward would mean please Philip as it would mean the return of the name Mountbatten-Windsor, however we all know for simplicity she is styled as The Lady Louise Windsor. In school, however, she is known as Mountbatten-Windsor. Images from a school netball game showed Louise with a name badge on saying L.M.W. (Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, not using "Lady".)

The only current Royal who will continue the line of Mountbatten-Windsor surnames will be Edward's son James as Harry's children will be Prince and Princess's. Although he will eventually be James, Duke of Edinburgh, his children will be Lady Christian Name Mountbatten-Windsor etc. as James' surname is Mountbatten-Windsor, even though we know him as Viscount Severn. Obviously Harry's grandchildren will likely have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor, by then Charles may have changed it to merely Windsor. (Not likely, I know.)
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  #107  
Old 02-07-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ive View Post
Thank you very much iluvbertie.
So if I have understood right, The Queen is still a Windsor an her husband still a Mountbatten but they do not need to bear a surname, because of her titles.
...
So Charles and Anne were born as Mountbatten, changed the name in 1952 in Windsor an then 1960 in Mountbatten-Windsor, Andrew and Edward were born as Mountbatten-Windsor. But not really, because they do not need a surname too? In the birth certificates is it written, but it is not used? Am I right?
...

Thanks for your patience.
One way to think of this is that the Royal Family (those who are Prince/Princesses and HRH) have a (hidden) surname but don't use it. But it exists so that it can be passed down to descendants who may need to use it.

So you're correct Ive about the surname changes through the years of Charles and Anne.

I find it interesting that the Queen, upon marriage went from her maiden name of Windsor to her husband's surname of Mountbatten as per normal. Their first two children (Charles and Anne) were born and they were Mountbatten like their parents. Then after the Queen acceded to the throne she changed her and her children's surnames to Windsor. In 1960 she changed her children's names to Mountbatten-Windsor but interestingly kept her own name Windsor. So it continues to be the House of Windsor as per letters patent and also as per tradition and until (the present or future) monarch says differently, it will remain the House Of Windsor as per the Queen's Letters patent of 1952 and 1960.

Philip's surname is Mountbatten, the Queen's is Windsor and the male-line descendants (except married females) are Mountbatten-Windsor.

I believe what started the whole push for the 1952 Letters Patent was Earl Mountbatten of Burma (Philip's uncle) saying early in 1952 that the House of Mountbatten is here and what a glorious day it is. Of course he was wrong. According to custom while the Queen's (hidden) surname was Mountbatten the House was still Windsor. And it would only become the House of Mountbatten when Charles became King. But it would have probably worked out that way if Uncle Louis (Earl Mountbatten) had kept his mouth shut. He was too anxious and jumped the gun by one generation.
Queen Victoria's maiden name was (probably) Guelph and became Wettin upon marriage to Prince Albert but under Victoria it was still the HOUSE of Hanover. They never used surnames then so it was not an issue but the fact remains that the House changed to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha only when Edward VII succeeded Victoria.

The House of Windsor could (should) have continued without any Letters Patent being issued and then Charles would become the first monarch of the House of Mountbatten (although Uncle Louis wouldn't have lived to see it.)

Ironically because of Louis Mountbatten's bragging early in the Queen's reign, PM Sir Winston Churchill and Queen Mary among others were horrified and recommended the Queen issue the 1952 Letter's patent. In 1960, with the impending birth of Prince Andrew and with Philip's and (no doubt Louis's) influence the name was changed again. By this time Queen Mary was dead and Churchill was no longer in office.

I say ironically, because if nothing had been said in the early weeks of the Queen's reign, Philip's wife (The Queen) and his children would (still) bear his (hidden) surname Mountbatten. Now his children have it as part of a hyphenated name and his wife has reverted to her maiden name. And the House is still Windsor. Unless new letters patent are issued, then the House (oddly in terms of custom) will remain Windsor and the surname will remain Mountbatten-Windsor.

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, happens when Charles becomes King!
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  #108  
Old 02-08-2014, 04:53 PM
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On Feb 8, 1960, Queen Elizabeth II issued an Order-in-Council stating that she and her family would be known as the House of Windsor
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  #109  
Old 09-06-2014, 07:56 PM
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Lord Beaverbrook, who owned the Daily Express, the Sunday Express, and the Evening Standard, wrote:

The Queen could never see the name of Windsor, chosen by her grandfather, abandoned by the royal house.
The proclamation of the House of Windsor was announced on July 17, 1917.
King George V and his issue were to be referred to as the House of Windsor.
Was there any written declaration stating that Windsor would be their surname?
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  #110  
Old 11-11-2014, 07:27 PM
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I'm not sure prior to 1952. Someone else can maybe answer.

There was a proclamation in 1952 that the name and house would be Windsor

There was a proclamation in 1960 that the house would be Windsor and the Queen's descendants bear the name Mountbatten-Windsor
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  #111  
Old 11-11-2014, 07:48 PM
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Windsor/Windsor-Mountbatten: Name of Royal House and Surname

George V maybe wasn't thinking about a surname since with 4 Princes whose children would Princes & Princesses and Princess Mary's children would have a surname from their father. By the time, a surname is needed he would be long gone.

Technically, the House name would not change until Charles came to the throne. Victoria was Hanover but Edward was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. So Charles could change the house name if he wanted.


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  #112  
Old 11-11-2014, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
The proclamation of the House of Windsor was announced on July 17, 1917.
King George V and his issue were to be referred to as the House of Windsor.
Was there any written declaration stating that Windsor would be their surname?
I highly doubt there would have been. Royals using surnames (at least in Britain) is a rather new thing. The Tudors, Stewarts/Stuarts, and the Bruces of course all had actual surnames, but that was owing to the fact that these dynasties originated in the nobility instead of royalty. The Hanovers didn't have an actual surname, nor did the Saxe-Coburg and Gothas. When the descendants of such individuals needed to use a surname (and ceased to be royal) the name changed pretty much depending on the person; typically it was Fitz-Something or Other (FitzRoy, FitzJames, FitzClarence, FitzGeorge, etc). I kind of doubt George V was worried about what names his great-grandchildren would take. Given as the Windsors were all born after the Queen had made her proclamation that her descandants would be surnamed Mountbatten-Windsor, I wouldn't be surprised if it was that decision that set that the children of the Kents and Gloucesters would be Windsors instead of Fitz-Whatevers.
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  #113  
Old 11-11-2014, 10:25 PM
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Wasn't the Fitz prefix used for mostly royal illegitimate children in the Stuart and Hanover eras?


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  #114  
Old 11-11-2014, 10:44 PM
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Yes.

Actually, looking at the descendants of Queen Victoria closer, and "Windsor" was used as a surname pretty much automatically; by the son of Prince Arthur of Connaught (Alastair Windsor, 2nd Duke of Connaught and Strathearn). So it seems to reason that George V was aware that "Windsor" was his future great-grandchildren's surname.
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  #115  
Old 11-11-2014, 11:15 PM
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Alastair lost his Prince title in 1917 Great Name/new HRH rules. Afterwards, he went by Earl of Macduff as he was heir to his mother's title, Duchess of Fife. When his father died, he became Duke of Connaught and Strathearn, he would also became Duke of Fife but he died at age 28.

He would not really need a surname. In 1917, all of the German names in the extended family were switched to British ones. That's how the Battenburgs became the Mountbattens.


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  #116  
Old 11-14-2014, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
The proclamation of the House of Windsor was announced on July 17, 1917.
King George V and his issue were to be referred to as the House of Windsor.
Was there any written declaration stating that Windsor would be their surname?
I went back and checked and the 1917 Proclamation does state the name shall be Windsor.

"We, out of our royal will and authority do hereby declare and announce that as from the date of this Our Royal Proclamtion Our House and Our Family shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor and that all the descendants in the male line of Our said grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms other than female descendants who may marry or have married shall bear the said Name of Windsor"

George R.I.
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  #117  
Old 11-15-2014, 07:32 PM
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Rudolph, Thank you for checking the 1917 Proclamation.
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