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  #141  
Old 01-04-2016, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
I think that's probably right. Didn't Sophie use Sophie Wessex for her PR company?
She needed a 'surname' for her work.

She could have continued with Rhys-Jones as many women do or changed to Mountbatten-Windsor - her married name but using Wessex was simply easier, not necessarily her legal name but one that people associate with her.
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  #142  
Old 01-04-2016, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Most of the time it's just their first names. We have seen William, Catherine, Harry etc just use their first name for their signature. The territory as the last was used when a last name was needed such as in the military or university but when they are signing a guest book as a Royal its just their first name.


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Even on legal documents they can simply sign their first names as they are royal and that is enough. If William or Harry are required to sign legislation as Counsellors-of-State they sign with only their first names (but so does the Queen adding R to indicate that she is The Queen).

It is a major reason why they are discouraged from giving autographs because only their name is needed on a legal documents, in Britain. Elsewhere they would have to abide by the laws of that country so using just William in France would not probably be accepted, depending on why he was signing e.g. signing a condolence book then William would be fine but signing a legal deposition he would need an official surname and we have the clear evidence from 2012 that that surname is Mountbatten-Windsor.
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  #143  
Old 01-05-2016, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
My understanding is that, when HRHs "need" a surname, they use their territorial designation. Kate e,g, would call herself Catherine Cambridge.

I was also told that, in the past, the same rule also applied to peers (dukes, earls, etc.) with a territorial designation attached to their titles, Can anyone confirm (or deny) that ?
It is the custom for British peers to use their territorial designations as informal surnames, although this is not done in official documents.
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  #144  
Old 06-12-2016, 08:54 PM
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is it right that the duke of edinburgh children and male line descendants are technically legally his/her highness prince/ss of denmark ?!
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  #145  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:01 PM
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I believe Philip renounced his Greek and Danish titles when he became a British citizen. When he married then Princess Elizabeth, he was just Lt. Philip Mountbatten


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  #146  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
is it right that the duke of edinburgh children and male line descendants are technically legally his/her highness prince/ss of denmark ?!
If I'm not mistaken, Philip renounced all his titles at the time of his marriage to Elizabeth. George VI then created Philip as the Duke of Edinburgh. It wasn't until years later that Elizabeth herself made Philip a Prince of the UK in his own right.

I would wager though that all Philip's descendants can claim heritage to the Greek and Denmark lineage but they would not be considered able to hold a legal title such as you suggest.

This is just my estimation from the little I know. I'm sure there's more responses that will follow that are more right on the money.
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  #147  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:17 PM
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wouldn't it needed a parliament approval to renounce his titles or it can be done by personal choice !
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  #148  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:30 PM
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Yes, I believe that's correct, Osipi. On 28th February 1947 Philip renounced his Greek citizenship (and titles) and became a British subject. He wasn't then Duke of Edinburgh, (that came on 19th November 1947) so was simply Lt. Mountbatten, adopting the name of his mother's family, the Mountbattens.

Incidentally, King George I of Greece had been Prince William of Denmark when he was chosen to ascend the Greek throne after King Otto bowed out in the 1860's. However, the Greek throne was rather a dubious proposition for such a very young man, (who knew whether he would succeed) and so I think arrangements were put quietly in place that William/George would remain a Prince of Denmark and his descendants would also have that privilege. It proved very handy and useful when King Constantine was exiled as he and his family were granted Danish passports by Queen Margrethe.

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wouldn't it needed a parliament approval to renounce his titles or it can be done by personal choice !
Philip was a Greek citizen, (he was born on Greek soil on Corfu in 1921) and renounced foreign titles (those of Prince of Greece and Denmark) so the British Parliament had nothing to do with it, really. His British citizenship was granted very quickly by the Home Office officials, but I think it was generally recognised in 1947 that he would be marrying the heir to the throne, so that was understandable.
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  #149  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
wouldn't it needed a parliament approval to renounce his titles or it can be done by personal choice !

Greek or British?

It is British law that foreign titles are not formally acknowledged by British subjects. Thus, as a British subject the DoE's foreign titles are not recognized.

As for the Greeks... I've never read that they made any stink about the DoE giving up his Greek titles. He legally wouldn't have them now regardless of whether or not his renouncement was legal - the Greek government no longer recognizes the monarchy.

For the Danes... Well, there has been nothing revoking the use of "of Denmark" by the Greek royals and by extension the DoE and his family. But they're not in the Danish line of succession.
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  #150  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
wouldn't it needed a parliament approval to renounce his titles or it can be done by personal choice !

It was a personal choice. In the UK, parliament doesn't control a person's title. It's the monarch. It's the monarch that grants people a title and determines who is a HRH.

With WWII just being over, Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark marrying the future British Queen may not have sat well. So Philip chose to focus on his British mother's side of the family for his Mountbatten name


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  #151  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:39 PM
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i meant the danish and greek parliaments
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  #152  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:41 PM
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I would think the Danish passports had likely as much to do with Constantine being married to Anne-Marie of Denmark, as it did with George I's Danish roots. Margrethe was not likely to leave her sister and her family without a passport, even if Constantine wasn't a Danish prince.
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  #153  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Greek or British?

It is British law that foreign titles are not formally acknowledged by British subjects. Thus, as a British subject the DoE's foreign titles are not recognized.

As for the Greeks... I've never read that they made any stink about the DoE giving up his Greek titles. He legally wouldn't have them now regardless of whether or not his renouncement was legal - the Greek government no longer recognizes the monarchy.

For the Danes... Well, there has been nothing revoking the use of "of Denmark" by the Greek royals and by extension the DoE and his family. But they're not in the Danish line of succession.

Also all of Philip's children and certain grandchildren/great grandchildren are British Princes/Princesses so they don't need a Danish or Greek title to use.


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  #154  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
I would think the Danish passports had likely as much to do with Constantine being married to Anne-Marie of Denmark, as it did with George I's Danish roots. Margrethe was not likely to leave her sister and her family without a passport, even if Constantine wasn't a Danish prince.
and actually they could have british passport any time they wont as "heirs of the body" and legitimate descendants of Sophia, Electress of Hanover

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Also all of Philip's children and certain grandchildren/great grandchildren are British Princes/Princesses so they don't need a Danish or Greek title to use.
but the british titles are limited i think in one or two generation the lines of prince edward and prince henry will become Commoners or nobility at best unlike the danish and greek titles wish don't have limits
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  #155  
Old 06-12-2016, 10:05 PM
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But that's the point of limiting who is a British HRH to keep it limited to close members of the monarch's family. Edward chose for his kids not to be HRHs. Harry's grandkids won't be HRH's. They will be styled as Lord and Lady except for the heir to Harry's future dukedom. The great grandchildren of the monarch should be commoners unless you in the direct line to the throne like George and Charlotte.


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  #156  
Old 06-12-2016, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
But that's the point of limiting who is a British HRH to keep it limited to close members of the monarch's family. Edward chose for his kids not to be HRHs. Harry's grandkids won't be HRH's. They will be styled as Lord and Lady except for the heir to Harry's future dukedom. The great grandchildren of the monarch should be commoners unless you in the direct line to the throne like George and Charlotte.
i never liked the british titles system i think the luxembourg version of Prince/Princess of Nassau is the best solution
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  #157  
Old 06-13-2016, 02:09 AM
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But that's the point of limiting who is a British HRH to keep it limited to close members of the monarch's family. Edward chose for his kids not to be HRHs. Harry's grandkids won't be HRH's. They will be styled as Lord and Lady except for the heir to Harry's future dukedom. The great grandchildren of the monarch should be commoners unless you in the direct line to the throne like George and Charlotte.


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Under the existing Letters Patent Harry's children will be Lord/Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor in the present reign. If he is given a title on marriage then the eldest son will be entitled to use Harry's second title, assuming he has more than one, as a courtesy title. Once Charles becomes King they will automatically become HRH Prince/Princess of yyyy (insert Harry's title).

Edward chose to not use HRH for his children but the LPs weren't repealed or re-issued and there is therefore some debate about whether or not 'The Queen's will' being made known is enough to deny that styling forever.

It is for this reason I don't see Charles trying to strip Beatrice and Eugenie of their HRHs - as it would also mean denying HRH to Harry's children which I don't think he would ever do.

The great-grandchildren through the males aren't HRH's and girls can't pass it on even to grandchildren.

Personally I would give issue LPs limiting the HRHs further - the children of the monarch, the spouse of the heir apparent and the children of said heir apparent. I wouldn't give HRH to the spouses of younger children or to the great-grandchildren of the monarch. Under my system the HRH's would be Philip, Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward, William, Harry and Camilla only. In the next reign Kate, George and Charlotte would move up to HRH but no one else would have it - now or in the future and then only George's spouse and children would every get it.
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  #158  
Old 06-13-2016, 02:35 AM
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Well there is two great grandchildren with HRHs now. George would have been a HRH without the new LPs from the Queen. To me it seems silly for George and Charlotte not to be HRH at birth and then become ones whenever the Queen dies.

People get confused by Kate not being Princess Catherine. George, future King, son of Prince -not a Prince but Earl of Strathearn however just for a bit then he is HRH Prince George of Cornwall & Cambridge.


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  #159  
Old 06-13-2016, 03:12 AM
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It is not all that complicated. Descendants of the Sovereign in the direct lineage (here: The Queen - The Prince of Wales - the children of The Prince of Wales - the grandchildren of The Prince of Wales) all are a Prince (Princess) of the United Kingdom with the prefix HRH.

All other descendants of a Sovereign in the male lineage are Prince (Princess) of the United Kingdom as well, with the prefix HRH, but only when they are not furtherer related to a Sovereign for more than three degrees of consanguinity.

This build-in mechanism prevents that the group of Princes and Princesses of the UK becomes too large. The royal family is enormous: look at that balcony... But the number of real Princes and Princesses of the UK is pretty limited and it will only decrease since a lot of royals have an advanced age.
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  #160  
Old 06-13-2016, 04:57 AM
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In the group of The Queen's grandchildren - 8 in total - only two can currently pass on HRH and for Harry that would only happen in the next reign anyway. I don't think the Queen will issue new LPs for Harry's children (if she was going to do so she would have done so in the same LPs as she did for William's children).

That means that it is possible that Harry's children will be Lord/Lady for some years and then HRHs so why not change it to just the grandchildren and no great-grandchildren during the reign?

The reason there are so many at the moment is that George V had 6 children of whom three sons had 7 HRH children between then with 5 of those children still living. The Queen then had 4 children with 3 sons to pass on HRHs.

If William has no more children or has a third who is a girl then only George will be able to pass on HRH into the next generation.
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