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  #201  
Old 07-17-2017, 09:18 AM
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I just loved the idea of using Windsor Castle to come up with the new family name for the royal family.
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  #202  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyCat View Post
This is true. I guess my point was that, with the exception of the Bernodottes, most reigning houses don't really have surnames per se.

Cat
Actually, the Spanish royals have always used full family names. For example, King Felipe VI's official title and style is

Su Majestad D. Felipe Vi (Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos) de Borbón y Grecia , Rey de España

Princess Leonor on the other hand, since the accession of her father, has been known as

Su Alteza Real Doña Leonor (de Todos los Santos) de Borbón y Ortiz, Princesa de Asturias ( , de Gerona y de Viana, Duquesa de Montblanch, Condesa de Cervera, Señora de Balaguer ).

Leonor's younger sister on the other hand is.

Su Alteza Real Doña Sofía (de Todos los Santos) de Borbón y Ortiz, Infanta de España

and their cousin e.g. is

Su Excelencia Don Felipe Juan Froilán de Marichalar y Borbón, Grande de España.

Note that, in the Spanish convention, the paternal family name precedes the maternal one.
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  #203  
Old 07-17-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
honestly i think they should change the family name to britain something like the belgian royal family instead of keeping changing the family name to whatever the monarch or consort or the public feels and think at a certain time . instead of that we have a saxe coburg and gotha monarch who call herself a windsor and a consort who call himself a Mountbatten which is a translation of battenberg which is his mother family name which is a branch of the house of Hesse-Darmstadt and his real family name is that of his father which is the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg if the royal house is going to change from saxe coburg and gotha to Glücksburg i wouldn't mind it instead of just creating royal houses only on the base of personal individual likeness .
The name of the Belgian royal family is Saxe-Cobourg ( in French). The members of the family who are princes of Belgium, however, do not use a family name, For example, Princess Élisabeth's legal name ( in French) is

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélêne, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique .




Since she doesn't use a family name , she is enrolled for example at school (in Dutch) as Elisabeth van België and people incorrectly assume "van België" is her family name. I suppose that Laurent's grandchildren for example. who will no longer be princes or princesses of Belgium under King Philippe's new 2015 royal decree , will revert to using the family name Saxe-Cobourg a
when they are born, but that remains to be seen.

Something similar applies to the Windsors. Princes and princesses of the Royal House do not use a family name and it is customary to use informally the territorial designation of their title as a pseudo-name, e,g. Richard Gloucester or Henry Wales. Descendants in male line of George V who are not HRHs and do not descend from QEII use the family name Windsor, while descendants in male line of QEII and Prince Philip who are not HRHs use the family name Mountbatten-Windsor.
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  #204  
Old 07-24-2017, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by DeeT View Post
Celebrating one's 70th birthday is a wonderful milestone, Camilla is fortunate to enjoy her special day and year with her husband, children, step-children, grandchildren and others who are significant to her.

The House of Windsor has endured and been supported by many for years. IMO, there is also room to remember and recognize a woman who contributed enormously to ensuring that the House of Windsor and the lineage of her ex-husband continues.

Actually, the House of Windsor, i.e. technically the male line descendants of King George V, will no longer be on the throne of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth realms when the Queen passes away. It will have been replaced by the House of Mountbatten or, if you prefer, the House of Mountbatten-Windsor, i.e. the male line descendants of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and Queen Elizabeth II.

For the Windsors to stay on the throne, King George VI would have had to be succeeded on the throne by his brother, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, who was at the time the most senior living agnatic descendant of King George V not excluded by law from the line of succession. The Crown would then have passed to Prince Richard, the current Duke of Gloucester, and then to the current Earl of Ulster, both of whom are Windsors, unlike Charles and William, who, as I noted before, are Mountbatten-Windsors instead.
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  #205  
Old 07-24-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
A... For the Windsors to stay on the throne, King George VI would have had to be succeeded on the throne by his brother, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, who was at the time the most senior living agnatic descendant of King George V not excluded by law from the line of succession. The Crown would then have passed to Prince Richard, the current Duke of Gloucester, and then to the current Earl of Ulster, both of whom are Windsors, unlike Charles and William, who, as I noted before, are Mountbatten-Windsors instead.
That's a technicality though which only happened because Prince Philip chafed about 'what bloody use' he was when his wife had to accede to the throne at such a young age, before she had barely been able to settle down into being a wife and mother. The whole situation was very hard on her marriage and on her relationship with Philip. Her duties as a young Queen also impacted her bond and relationship in particular with young Prince Charles, as we know.

In any case, the official change to 'Mountbatten-Windsor' for the male line descendants of Queen Elizabeth happened in order to appease Prince Philip (and by extension, Lord Louis Mountbatten, who was the successful co-conspirator in arranging for Philip to be accepted as a suitable husband for Princess Elizabeth). Of course, Elizabeth was as strong-minded as she was dutiful, and therefore determined to have her way in her selection of a husband.

Not unlike feisty Princess Margaret's determination to choose Peter Townsend (which might have eventually come to pass had her father King George VI not died). I say that because even though Townsend was deemed unsuitable as a divorced man, he was the King's former equerry and a war hero. Moreover, George VI (Bertie) was very indulgent of his daughters, especially Margaret, the apple of his eye. IMO, the recent rewriting of that love affair (and especially the casting of Margaret and Peter Townsend in The Crown miniseries, is way off-base apparently on purpose).

The 'Mountbatten-Windsor' moniker is all in the family anyway what with Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth both being descendants of Queen Victoria, and with a majority of German ancestry. It is ironically Diana's lineage and Catherine's lineage that makes future inheritors of the British throne decidedly more British ancestrally (in addition to Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, the Queen Mother's blood lines, of course).

See corrections to the comments in this post here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Windsor


The current British royal family will remain known as 'The House of Windsor.' Only male line descendants who are not styled HRH and Prince/Princess will be known as 'Mountbatten-Windsor.'
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  #206  
Old 07-24-2017, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Actually, the House of Windsor, i.e. technically the male line descendants of King George V, will no longer be on the throne of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth realms when the Queen passes away. It will have been replaced by the House of Mountbatten or, if you prefer, the House of Mountbatten-Windsor, i.e. the male line descendants of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, and Queen Elizabeth II.

For the Windsors to stay on the throne, King George VI would have had to be succeeded on the throne by his brother, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, who was at the time the most senior living agnatic descendant of King George V not excluded by law from the line of succession. The Crown would then have passed to Prince Richard, the current Duke of Gloucester, and then to the current Earl of Ulster, both of whom are Windsors, unlike Charles and William, who, as I noted before, are Mountbatten-Windsors instead.
I thought the Royal House name was still the House of Windsor, while the family name was changed to Mountbatten-Windsor.
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  #207  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I thought the Royal House name was still the House of Windsor, while the family name was changed to Mountbatten-Windsor.
You are right. It's all explained here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Windsor

"Soon after Elizabeth became Queen in 1952, Lord Mountbatten observed that because it was the standard practice for the wife in a marriage to adopt her husband's surname, the royal house had become the House of Mountbatten. When Elizabeth's grandmother, Queen Mary, heard of this comment, she informed British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and he later advised the Queen to issue a royal proclamation declaring that the royal house was to remain known as the House of Windsor. This she did on 9 April 1952, officially declaring it her 'Will and Pleasure that I and My children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that My descendants, other than female descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor.'[4] Philip privately complained, 'I am nothing but a bloody amoeba. I am the only man in the country not allowed to give his name to his own children.'[5]

On 8 February 1960, after the death of Queen Mary and the resignation of Churchill, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince or Princess.[4] Still, Elizabeth also decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not have that style and title would bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor."


Therefore, the designation will remain 'The House of Windsor' upon the Queen's death. The only difference is that those descendants not styled HRH Prince or Princess, will be known as Mountbatten-Windsor. Again, this latter exception occurred in order to appease the Queen's understandably disgruntled husband, Prince Philip.
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  #208  
Old 07-24-2017, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
You are right. It's all explained here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Windsor

"Soon after Elizabeth became Queen in 1952, Lord Mountbatten observed that because it was the standard practice for the wife in a marriage to adopt her husband's surname, the royal house had become the House of Mountbatten. When Elizabeth's grandmother, Queen Mary, heard of this comment, she informed British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and he later advised the Queen to issue a royal proclamation declaring that the royal house was to remain known as the House of Windsor. This she did on 9 April 1952, officially declaring it her 'Will and Pleasure that I and My children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that My descendants, other than female descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor.'[4] Philip privately complained, 'I am nothing but a bloody amoeba. I am the only man in the country not allowed to give his name to his own children.'[5]

On 8 February 1960, after the death of Queen Mary and the resignation of Churchill, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince or Princess.[4] Still, Elizabeth also decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not have that style and title would bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor."


Therefore, the designation will remain 'The House of Windsor' upon the Queen's death. The only difference is that those descendants not styled HRH Prince or Princess, will be known as Mountbatten-Windsor. Again, this latter exception occurred in order to appease the Queen's understandably disgruntled husband, Prince Philip.

I'm a traditionalist in these matters and, as such, I believe dynasties should be recorded patrilineally. Otherwise, the whole point of naming a dynasty wouldn't make sense. The very fact that Prince Philip's male line descendants use the family name Mountbatten-Windsor makes it clear that they belong to a different family than the Windsors (aka Saxe-Coburg anf Gotha), no matter how they choose to call their royal house.

BTW, I apply the same criteria to the Orange-Nassaus (currently, the House of Amsberg) and to any other royal house that descends from a queen regnant. The only concession I think we could make is the use of hyphenated names showing a composition of maternal and paternal family names such as Mountbatten-Windsor, Habsburg-Lorraine, or Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
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  #209  
Old 07-24-2017, 06:00 PM
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It's nice that you are a traditionalist in these matters @MBruno (and thanks for bringing up this topic). However, your traditionalist outlook has no bearing on the fact that the British monarchy after Queen Elizabeth, will continue to be known as The Royal House of Windsor.
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  #210  
Old 07-24-2017, 06:28 PM
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Mountbatten isn't Philip's paternal line's name. It is the Anglican version of Battenberg which is his maternal family. Anyways Charles can change it if he wants when he is King.
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  #211  
Old 07-24-2017, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MaiaMia_53 View Post
You are right. It's all explained here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Windsor


Therefore, the designation will remain 'The House of Windsor' upon the Queen's death. The only difference is that those descendants not styled HRH Prince or Princess, will be known as Mountbatten-Windsor. Again, this latter exception occurred in order to appease the Queen's understandably disgruntled husband, Prince Philip.

But then, why does Edward's daughter Louise just use Windsor, instead of Mountbatten-Windsor?
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  #212  
Old 07-24-2017, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
But then, why does Edward's daughter Louise just use Windsor, instead of Mountbatten-Windsor?
Her full name is Lady Louise Alice Elizabeth Mary Mountbatten-Windsor. I have always thought that she used the surname of Mountbatten-Windsor. Maybe someone here knows more than I do.

Perhaps she uses the style of Lady Louise Windsor because she is part of the House of Windsor by birth? Just a guess.
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  #213  
Old 07-24-2017, 08:31 PM
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I believe Louise just uses Windsor because of her father's preference.

If you look at the CC, she's recognized as Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor - or at least she is now. However, it seems like Edward has a preference for simply "Windsor" - that's what he used professionally before he was married.
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  #214  
Old 07-24-2017, 10:34 PM
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I suspect that like of lot of people with double barrelled names they use one for convenience rather than having to write the full name. I have a number of students I teach whose name appears on the rolls etc using only one of the names but on formal documents, such as reports, the full name is shown.

I would suspect that asking a five year old to learn 'Mountbatten-Windsor' is a lot harder than simply 'Windsor' and so Louise was Windsor for convenience but her formal documents - passport, school reports, A-level certificate, degree (if she gets one) etc will have Mountbatten-Windsor.
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Old 08-01-2017, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I suspect that like of lot of people with double barrelled names they use one for convenience rather than having to write the full name. I have a number of students I teach whose name appears on the rolls etc using only one of the names but on formal documents, such as reports, the full name is shown.

I would suspect that asking a five year old to learn 'Mountbatten-Windsor' is a lot harder than simply 'Windsor' and so Louise was Windsor for convenience but her formal documents - passport, school reports, A-level certificate, degree (if she gets one) etc will have Mountbatten-Windsor.
I think you're right about using one name for convenience. For Louise's (and James' as well) Olympic/Paralympic and Commonwealth ID badges, they said The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor/The Lord James Mountatten-Windsor, but when Louise attends Ascot her badge simply says "Lady Louise Windsor". I believe at school she also only uses Louise Windsor (dropping the Lady part).
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Old 08-01-2017, 04:53 PM
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If memory serves me correctly, wasn't Queen Victoria the member of the House of Hanover to rule?

It was her son Edward VII, who changed the House name to Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, as this was Albert's name. Edward VII became the first ruler of the House of Saxe-Colburg and Gotha.

It was his son George V that changed that name to the House of Windsor.

Since the British Royals love tradition, shouldn't it be Charles who changes the name of the house to the House of Mountbatten and possibly change those whose last name is Mountbatten-Windsor to just Mountbatten?
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  #217  
Old 08-01-2017, 05:23 PM
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I don't think Charles will change the name of the house to Mountbatten or Mountbatten-Windsor for the simple reason that I don't think he'll see a need to. It would also pretty much shock the socks of the globe if he did so as it would be seen as being a slight to his mother's memory. Charles knows his reign will not be an overly long one and historically, he may even been seen as a "transitional" king that reigned between Queen Elizabeth II and William V.

Then again, anything is possible. I just don't think its probable.
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  #218  
Old 08-01-2017, 05:30 PM
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If Lord Mountbatten hadn't been so presumptuous as to declare 'the House of Mountbatten now rules' or words to that effect, shortly after the accession of The Queen and had let the matter take their normal course no one would be in the slightest concerned when Charles took the throne as the first monarch of the House of Mountbatten as historically the House name has always changed when a King succeeded a female e.g. the change for Tudor to Stuart happened when Elizabeth I was succeeded by James the VI and I. It changed again when Anne was replaced by George I and again when Edward VII succeeded Victoria. No one was surprised or upset when Edward became the King of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as that was his father's name.

Having caused the issue to raise its head so early in the reign it had to be dealt with - Elizabeth was of course the last of the 'Windsors' and Charles should have been the first of the House of Mountbatten taking the name from his father but that all changed in 1960 with the Queen's announcement about the House and surnames so I am sure he will remain a Windsor and there now won't be a House name change until their is another Queen succeeded by her own heir who will take their name from their father.
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  #219  
Old 08-01-2017, 06:05 PM
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It can be noted too that while the name isn't changing (although it remains to be seen if Charles or William will change it), the House itself will.

The Queen belongs to the House of Windsor as a cadet branch of the House of Saxe-County and Gotha, itself a cadet branch of the House of Wettin.

Charles and his descendants belong to the House of Windsor as a cadet branch of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, itself a cadet branch of the House of Oldenburg.

It is very likely that the House will remain Windsor (or Mountbatten-Windsor) for generations to come even as it passes through female lines - because the trend of marrying other royals (or even nobles) has passed, future royal spouses aren't likely to come from a "House" at all.
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