The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1781  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:38 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 2,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I am as much a member of my mother's family as I am my father's family.
(in fact family reunion this summer-the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and even a few great great grandchildren of my late grandparents-possible 96+ people or more) Very few of us have my grandfather's last name. In fact, only 7 men and 4 wives of all those people have his last name.

We are talking of Windsors descended from George V at the moment, not all the descendants of Queen Victoria. The Queen obviously considers these people her family.



FYI-there is only one Mowatt girl, Zenouska--and she spends a lot of time with her Uncle James's family. She does have a brother, Christian.
The Queen even considers The Lady Saltoun a member of the Royal family so in that light it would be strange if she did not include the Mowatts
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1782  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:46 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,079
Quote:
surprised this simple task needs explaining.
Because of Lord Guthrie's accident, the appearance on the Balcony was rather more rushed than usual.. with just seconds between sorting out positions and the first planes going overhead.
Given the novelty of the experience for the Duchess, and the kaleidoscope of newness before her- squeezed up new family, vast and deafening crowds below.. it isn't surprising at all.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1783  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:11 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: SL, United Kingdom
Posts: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
“Revealed: How Harry reassured 'nervous' Meghan at her first Trooping the Colour ceremony (before reminding her to 'look up to the sky' during the flypast)”

Prince Harry asked Meghan Markle if she was OK at Trooping the Colour | Daily Mail Online

A lip reader was employed to get the lowdown between Meghan and Harry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Hilarious! Harry has to remind Meghan to look up to the sky during the flypast. I am surprised this simple task needs explaining.
I’m sorry but so many of these so-called “lip readers” are inaccurate in their readings, so...
Reply With Quote
  #1784  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:52 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 1,231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Reem View Post
I’m sorry but so many of these so-called “lip readers” are inaccurate in their readings, so...
That is true. I have a couple of friends who are pretty good at lip reading but they do best with people they are familiar with and who look directly at them while speaking, yet they still have to have things repeated.

I was more curious about the animated conversation between Charles and Harry than I was about what Harry supposedly said to Meghan.
Reply With Quote
  #1785  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:21 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
That is true. I have a couple of friends who are pretty good at lip reading but they do best with people they are familiar with and who look directly at them while speaking, yet they still have to have things repeated.

I was more curious about the animated conversation between Charles and Harry than I was about what Harry supposedly said to Meghan.
I can attest to this being taught lip reading as a young child to assist with a hearing loss. Studies show that only about 30 to 45 percent of the English language can be understood through lip reading alone. Lip reading is a tool to assist in understanding the spoken word rather than 100% accurate by itself.

Those that claim to "lip read" without sound cannot be 100% accurate at all.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1786  
Old 06-11-2018, 01:13 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Yes but Harry’s in the second carriage now. Just the two future Queen consorts in the first carriage.

Happy they didn’t put all four together
Even though they are future Queen consorts, when they're without their husbands, Harry outranks them.
Reply With Quote
  #1787  
Old 06-11-2018, 01:26 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 4,184
Quote:
I can attest to this being taught lip reading as a young child to assist with a hearing loss. Studies show that only about 30 to 45 percent of the English language can be understood through lip reading alone. Lip reading is a tool to assist in understanding the spoken word rather than 100% accurate by itself.

Those that claim to "lip read" without sound cannot be 100% accurate at all.
My late aunt had a similar condition as a child Osipi and even up to her death relied upon lip reading to aid in her comprehension. We learned to always face her when conversing. Her experiences with a hearing loss inspired her to become a speech language pathologist.
Reply With Quote
  #1788  
Old 06-11-2018, 01:36 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,183
Its a neat asset sometimes when you're watching something on TV and something is *bleeped* out. You know what they said.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1789  
Old 06-11-2018, 02:18 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I am as much a member of my mother's family as I am my father's family.
(in fact family reunion this summer-the children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and even a few great great grandchildren of my late grandparents-possible 96+ people or more) Very few of us have my grandfather's last name. In fact, only 7 men and 4 wives of all those people have his last name.

We are talking of Windsors descended from George V at the moment, not all the descendants of Queen Victoria. The Queen obviously considers these people her family.




Obviously you didn't understand my analogy.



Queen Elizabeth II is a great-great-granddaughter in paternal line of Queen Victoria. Queen Margrethe II, King Carl XVI Gustaf and King Juan Carlos I are all great-great-grandchildren in maternal line of Queen Victoria. They are third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II.



Prince William is a great-great-grandson, in this case also in maternal line, of King George V. Zenouska Mowatt is a great-great-granddaughter in maternal line of King George V. Zenouska and William are thrird cousins.


Barring the minor details on maternal versus paternal line, William's kinship to Zenouska is the same then as Queen Elizabeth II's kinship to Margrethe, Carl Gustaf and Juan Carlos.



If we accept, as you propose, that William and Zenouska belong to the same family, then, by analogy, so do Elizabeth, Margrethe, Juan Carlos and Carl Gustaf. In fact, except for the royal family of the Netherlands, there would be only one single royal family in Western Europe by your reasoning as all monarchs (or former monarchs before abdication) are either second cousins or third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II (former King Albert II of Belgium and QEII are third cousins also, but through their common descent from Christian IX of Denmark rather than Queen Victoria).



If you want to go further down and include up to fifth cousins (?), then Princess Beatrix and Queen Elizabeth II are also members of the same family. You haven't answered my question though: where does a family end and how does one determine if two people belong to the same family or different families? Obviously, there has to be an objective criterion somehow.


Zenouska is not Queen Elizabeth II's direct descendant. She is a granddaughter of the Queen's first cousin. The notion that she should be considered a member of the Royal Family (i.e. the family of the sovereign) seems absurd to me. Of course, the Queen can invite anyone she wants to be on the balcony (even Thai princesses or the Liechtenstein Jacobite pretender for that matter !), but I think she should stick with her descendants or, maybe, all descendants of her father. Her first cousins could be there too, since they are HRHs and, hence, members of the Royal House, but that should be it IMHO.


Finally, on your last sentence, Zenouska is not a Windsor like Xan or Maud. Her family name is Mowatt.
Reply With Quote
  #1790  
Old 06-11-2018, 02:52 PM
princess gertrude's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Columbia, United States
Posts: 2,707
Just to put my "two cents" in. There are just far too many people on the balcony this year. No offense, but it's time to cut down the number of people. The Dukes and Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester, Prince(ss) Michael and Princess Alexandra are fine, but their children and grandchildren are just too much nowadays, especially with the Queen's grandchildren and great grandchildren making their appearances (most with spouses). Maybe it's a good thing Prince Phillip sat this one out, he might not have had anywhere to stand.
Reply With Quote
  #1791  
Old 06-11-2018, 03:04 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 3,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Obviously you didn't understand my analogy.



Queen Elizabeth II is a great-great-granddaughter in paternal line of Queen Victoria. Queen Margrethe II, King Carl XVI Gustaf and King Juan Carlos I are all great-great-grandchildren in maternal line of Queen Victoria. They are third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II.



Prince William is a great-great-grandson, in this case also in maternal line, of King George V. Zenouska Mowatt is a great-great-granddaughter in maternal line of King George V. Zenouska and William are thrird cousins.


Barring the minor details on maternal versus paternal line, William's kinship to Zenouska is the same then as Queen Elizabeth II's kinship to Margrethe, Carl Gustaf and Juan Carlos.



If we accept, as you propose, that William and Zenouska belong to the same family, then, by analogy, so do Elizabeth, Margrethe, Juan Carlos and Carl Gustaf. In fact, except for the royal family of the Netherlands, there would be only one single royal family in Western Europe by your reasoning as all monarchs (or former monarchs before abdication) are either second cousins or third cousins to Queen Elizabeth II (former King Albert II of Belgium and QEII are third cousins also, but through their common descent from Christian IX of Denmark rather than Queen Victoria).



If you want to go further down and include up to fifth cousins (?), then Princess Beatrix and Queen Elizabeth II are also members of the same family. You haven't answered my question though: where does a family end and how does one determine if two people belong to the same family or different families? Obviously, there has to be an objective criterion somehow.


Zenouska is not Queen Elizabeth II's direct descendant. She is a granddaughter of the Queen's first cousin. The notion that she should be considered a member of the Royal Family (i.e. the family of the sovereign) seems absurd to me. Of course, the Queen can invite anyone she wants to be on the balcony (even Thai princesses or the Liechtenstein Jacobite pretender for that matter !), but I think she should stick with her descendants or, maybe, all descendants of her father. Her first cousins could be there too, since they are HRHs and, hence, members of the Royal House, but that should be it IMHO.


Finally, on your last sentence, Zenouska is not a Windsor like Xan or Maud. Her family name is Mowatt.
I just fundamentally disagree about who is considered family.

With the Queen "her British Royal Family" obviously are the descendants of her grandfather. Her Windsor first cousins and their families. Not all the descendants of Queen Victoria or King Christian IX. This is what the Queen wants or we woudn't see these relatives there for her "birthday."

With Charles as King there may very well be changes.

Zenouska is as much a Windsor as Xan. They share the same Windsor grandfather. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Reply With Quote
  #1792  
Old 06-11-2018, 03:58 PM
loonytick's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Tennessee, United States
Posts: 755
A few years ago I watched one of the documentaries the BRF periodically allows made "behind the scenes." This one, I don't recall the name, showed workers at Buckingham Palace explaining things about their jobs...the man who does a complete walk through the palace every day checking and winding all the antique clocks, the chef and waitstaff preparing for a state dinner, and a butler getting everything ready for Trooping the Color. IIRC, he was setting everything up in the room from which the balcony opens.

The impression I got from his explanation of what would be happening there is that, once they're back at the palace that day, the Queen considers that part of the day an extended family* party. In that room they're having their pre-lunch cocktails and enjoying some social time with all the cousins and such. They do all go out on the balcony, but at least in part that's the Queen as hostess offering her guests a chance to see the fly-past from a good point of view. That explains why we occasionally (rarely, but not unheard of) see non-family members out there with the family; those people have been invited to the party, and the Queen is not the kind of hostess who gives some of her guests a good view of the entertainment while others have to peek through windows.

Now, that's how the butler chose to talk about that part of the day. It may not give the complete picture of how the BRF think about the balcony portion of Trooping the Color. But at least a part of the mindset going into who is on the balcony, where they stand, etc. seems to be independent of any concerns or thoughts regarding image or messaging.

*As for who is or isn't "family," it seems quite clear from the people who regularly show up at the Queen's family events (Trooping the Colour, the family Christmas party, etc.) she defines the term the way most people do, which is to say that she's not getting technical about who is x degrees away on the family tree or which last name they have, but rather it's whichever relatives have always been included in family events, their spouses, kids, grandkids, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #1793  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:26 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by princess gertrude View Post
Just to put my "two cents" in. There are just far too many people on the balcony this year. No offense, but it's time to cut down the number of people. The Dukes and Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester, Prince(ss) Michael and Princess Alexandra are fine, but their children and grandchildren are just too much nowadays, especially with the Queen's grandchildren and great grandchildren making their appearances (most with spouses). Maybe it's a good thing Prince Phillip sat this one out, he might not have had anywhere to stand.

IMHO that is exactly why they were all there. Who knows how Philip is in one year's time? Or if there is a Trooping the Colour at all or when it is? At their ages, Philip and Elizabeth must realise that each event could be their last. It is pure speculation on my part but the fact that Philip came to Harry's wedding at all is proof of the deep love he has for his family. Same with inviting so many distant relatives for this day. It is her birthday celebration after all.



I wish them so many happy days still.
Reply With Quote
  #1794  
Old 06-11-2018, 06:29 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 12,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
Even though they are future Queen consorts, when they're without their husbands, Harry outranks them.
Not true.

The precedence that the women take based on their own personal status only applies when there are NO men present.

The instant any royal man is present the women take their precedence according to the rank of their husbands.

This 'princesses born' precedence only applies in ALL women situations and in PRIVATE situations, not when on official duties or whenever their is a royal man present.
Reply With Quote
  #1795  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:26 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 6,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I just fundamentally disagree about who is considered family.

With the Queen "her British Royal Family" obviously are the descendants of her grandfather. Her Windsor first cousins and their families. Not all the descendants of Queen Victoria or King Christian IX. This is what the Queen wants or we woudn't see these relatives there for her "birthday."

With Charles as King there may very well be changes.

Zenouska is as much a Windsor as Xan. They share the same Windsor grandfather. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I think the people on the balcony for Trooping fit these three criteria:
1. They want to be there
1a. The timing is good for them
2. There are with other close family members
3. Elizabeth wants them there
4. They will behave in public after meeting one of the 4 criteria above

As with every family, there are diary conflicts, spats/hard feelings amongst and between family and lack of interest in some family members.

For example, say my kids have been in the past, but really hate going. I might decide it is time to take a hiatus form the balcony. But then say, I've not been going to Trooping because it is just a lot of standing around and waiting. The lunch is nice, but with 50 or so family, there are years, we don't get to spend quality time with Great/Grandmama. But, then I have a child/grandchild and Trooping regains its appeal because I get to live it through the next generation's eyes. So I resume going.

I've also thought (don't scoff) about the cost of the event for a branch of the family. To have to haul into London, find accommodations, buy all the clothing that might not get worn for anything else, eat out, etc... If school is for 4 kids that year, it might mean I have to make a choice between Family Spring Break in the Seychelles or the balcony. I know where my teenagers' hearts would be for many families.

I think the Queen is very open about this. I think its is family members that decide to show up or not and that is usually for a decent reason.
__________________
"And the tabloid press will be a pain in the ass, as usual." - Royal Norway
Reply With Quote
  #1796  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:30 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Not true.

The precedence that the women take based on their own personal status only applies when there are NO men present.

The instant any royal man is present the women take their precedence according to the rank of their husbands.

This 'princesses born' precedence only applies in ALL women situations and in PRIVATE situations, not when on official duties or whenever their is a royal man present.
Does it make sense though to observe precedence in private situations ? I am sure everybody curtsies to the Queen even in private, but does Kate really curtsy to Beatrice when they meet in private and casually ? I find it hard to believe, which raises the question of what the point is with these women-only, private rules of precedence .
Reply With Quote
  #1797  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:33 PM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 15,770
The only thing that bothers...the royal family aren’t into waving to the crowds after the Trooping. It’s like they just stand there and stare. The whole family should give a nice unison royal wave.
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
  #1798  
Old 06-11-2018, 07:37 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Alexandria, United States
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Does it make sense though to observe precedence in private situations ? I am sure everybody curtsies to the Queen even in private, but does Kate really curtsy to Beatrice when they meet in private and casually ? I find it hard to believe, which raises the question of what the point is with these women-only, private rules of precedence .
NO no no, not to attack you and if it appears as such sorry, but the only person female members of he royal family curtsy to is Her Majesty, and the Duke of Edinburgh out of courtesy. Precedence is the order members of the family enter an event and also who is listed where in the CC. Since 2012 mainly, there has been a misconception that it has to do with curtsying but that is not the case.
Reply With Quote
  #1799  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:07 PM
Princess Larisa's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: ., Croatia
Posts: 3,439
Court Circular 9th June:
Her Majesty was present at The Queen’s Birthday Parade on Horse Guards Parade this morning at which The Queen’s Colour of 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards was Trooped.

The Queen was accompanied by The Prince of Wales (Colonel, Welsh Guards), The Duke of Cambridge (Colonel, Irish Guards), The Duke of York (Colonel, Grenadier Guards), The Princess Royal (Gold Stick in Waiting and Colonel, The Blues and Royals, Royal Horse Guards and 1st Dragoons) and The Duke of Kent (Colonel, Scots Guards).

Her Majesty was attended by Field Marshal the Lord Guthrie of Craigiebank (Colonel, The Life Guards), Lieutenant General Sir James Bucknall (Colonel, Coldstream Guards) and Major General Benjamin Bathurst (Major General Commanding Household Division).

The Lord Vestey (Master of the Horse), Colonel Toby Browne, Lieutenant Colonel Michael Vernon, Major Nana Twumasi-Ankrah (Mounted Equerries in Waiting), Captain Jocelyn Bucknall (Coldstream Guards, Dismounted Equerry in Waiting) and Major General Sir Edward Smyth-Osbourne (Silver Stick in Waiting) were in attendance.

Colonel Crispin Lockhart (Chief of Staff), Lieutenant Colonel Harry Scott (Silver Stick Adjutant) and the Household Division Staff were present.
The Procession was led by Lieutenant Colonel Guy Stone, Welsh Guards (Brigade Major Household Division).

The troops on Parade, under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Edwyn Launders, Coldstream Guards (Field Officer in Brigade Waiting), received The Queen with a Royal Salute.

The Duchess of Cornwall, The Duchess of Cambridge, The Duke and Duchess of Sussex, Princess Beatrice of York and Princess Eugenie of York, The Countess of Wessex, accompanied by the Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor, The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester, The Duchess of Kent, Prince and Princess Michael of Kent, Princess Alexandra, the Hon Lady Ogilvy, Vice Admiral Sir Tim Laurence and other Members of the Royal Family drove to Horse Guards Parade and witnessed The Queen’s Birthday Parade.

On the conclusion of the Parade, Her Majesty drove in a carriage back to Buckingham Palace at the head of The Queen’s Guard, preceded by The King’s Troop Royal Horse Artillery, under the command of Major Harry Wallace, the Massed Mounted Bands of the Household Cavalry, the Sovereign’s Escort of the Household Cavalry, under the command of Major Jeremy Sudlow (The Blues and Royals, Royal Horse Guards and 1st Dragoons), and the Massed Bands of the Guards Division.

On arrival at Buckingham Palace, The Queen’s Guard entered the Forecourt and formed up opposite the Old Guard.

Her Majesty, from Buckingham Palace, witnessed a fly-past by aircraft of the Royal Air Force, led by Squadron Leader Martin Wild, Royal Air Force, to mark the official celebration of The Queen’s Birthday.

Royal Salutes were fired today by The King’s Troop Royal Horse Artillery in Green Park and from the Tower of London Saluting Battery by the Honourable Artillery Company, under the command of Major George Cobb.
Reply With Quote
  #1800  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:54 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 6,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Does it make sense though to observe precedence in private situations ? I am sure everybody curtsies to the Queen even in private, but does Kate really curtsy to Beatrice when they meet in private and casually ? I find it hard to believe, which raises the question of what the point is with these women-only, private rules of precedence .
It has nothing to do with what makes sense to an American, commoners or even individual members of the family. What matters is what QEII wants in these situations. To a lesser extent, what matters is the opinion of palace courtiers because we have seen over the years they can make things miserable for members of the family who are not playing by rules the courtiers demand.

JMO, but QRII is not a stickler for exact orders of precedence when she has a need/want for something else. What happens on the balcony shifts year to year to year (go and look at past photos if you don't want to believe me).

And maybe this precedence discussion belongs on that thread.
__________________

__________________
"And the tabloid press will be a pain in the ass, as usual." - Royal Norway
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ceremonies, official birthday, trooping the colour


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
alqasimi aristocracy armenia belgian royal family birthday celebration castles charles of wales chittagong countess of snowdon crown crown prince hussein crown prince hussein's future wife crown princess victoria current events cyprus danish history denmark duchess of sussex duke & duchess of cambridge; duke of cambridge duke of sussex dutch history felipe vi foundation french revolution friendly city genealogy germany head of the house henry v hill house of bourbon house of glucksburg house of orange-nassau house of saxe-coburg and gotha kiko letter lithuanian castles marriage meghan markle memoir mohammed vi monaco christening monaco history monarchism monogram naples nelson mandela bay nobel 2019 norwegian royal family official visit palaces potential areas prince harry prince of wales rumania russian imperial family saudi arabia shakespeare south africa south korea spain spanish history state visit sweden swedish royal family swedish royalty tracts united kingdom usa


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:06 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises
×