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  #121  
Old 10-24-2005, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I don't want her to go to every event where a Head of State is concerned but she should go to the ones that concern her family. Events seem incomplete sometimes without her.
She does attend things that concern her family. She attends Windsor marriages all the time. The European royals are several generations removed from being close relatives so it's not as though she sees them as family. The Windsors have been marrying Brits for several generations, so the family ties with other royal houses will become even more distant.
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  #122  
Old 10-24-2005, 02:10 PM
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Re:

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She does attend things that concern her family. She attends Windsor marriages all the time. The European royals are several generations removed from being close relatives so it's not as though she sees them as family. The Windsors have been marrying Brits for several generations, so the family ties with other royal houses will become even more distant.
Thats in the future. We're talking about now. Whether only 2nd cousins or nieces - she should go when others make the effort to. She is 79, seemingly in very good health and travel wont exactly be a huge strain on her in her private chartered jet. Queen Margrethe suffers from Arthritis and still manages to make all the family events. I would hope that she does see them all as her family - it's like denying her roots and her history.
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  #123  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:47 PM
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Do you honestly consider third and fourth cousins to be family? Do you attend all of their events? I certainly don't and I don't see why she should either. She is most closely related by blood to the Norwegians, and marriage to the Greeks and Spaniards (blood ties are slightly more distant). The Danes and Swedes are descendants of Victoria, and the Belgians and Luxembourgers are cousins through Astrid of Sweden (IIRC, otherwise, it must be through the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family). Those aren't close connections at all, and it's not surprising she doesn't attend a lot. Margrethe is 16 years younger than her so that's not a fair comparison. There are no sovereigns her age or Philip's age, so we can't look at them and say they should attend more. At their age, they probably want to rest on their weekends and don't really like the extra travel -- not all elderly people do.
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  #124  
Old 10-24-2005, 05:53 PM
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Re:

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At their age, they probably want to rest on their weekends and don't really like the extra travel -- not all elderly people do.
If she can't do the job then she should abdicate. Simple as that.

Do you honestly consider third and fourth cousins to be family? Do you attend all of their events?

I do indeed. But we're not talking about commoners here - we're talking about foreign royalty. It just looks so awful. Example, Felipe and Letizia's wedding;

Beatrix, Willem Alexander and Maxima
Carl Gustav, Silvia, Victoria, Carl Philip and Madeleine
Charles

It's ridiculous. It makes the Brits look like the poor relation.
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  #125  
Old 10-24-2005, 07:23 PM
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Beatrix skipped Felipe's wedding to attend her goddaughter's wedding. She attended the dinner the night before.

Just because you want her to attend something doesn't mean she agrees with you. She doesn't want to go -- she's not going to go (unless ordered by her staff or government). She's not going to suddenly start doing things in her sixth decade on the throne that she didn't do in her first decade. It makes the Windsors look like they've got something better to do with their time, and in their minds, they do. That's their opinion and they're entitled to it.

Nowhere in the monarch job description does attending foreign weddings, funerals, christenings, ethronements, etc, get mentioned. Her duty is to the realms, and she does that. She's not going to abdicate, and there's no reason why she should. The idea of Charles taking the throne, with his bad habit of contradicting the government (ex. GM crops) and forthrightness about controversial issues (hunting), should worry monarchists.
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  #126  
Old 10-24-2005, 07:33 PM
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Re:

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The idea of Charles taking the throne, with his bad habit of contradicting the government (ex. GM crops) and forthrightness about controversial issues (hunting), should worry monarchists.
She should abdicate. She has done us a great service but thats it now. It's time to go and enjoy being the Dowager Queen. We need someone like Charles who will argue with the Government and speak his mind. Is nobody allowed to contradict the Government? He doesn't have to support them nor give his approval to everything they do. He has a right to express his opinion and he does it marvellously. The man will be a wonderful King and I shall be glad to have him as my Sovereign.
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  #127  
Old 10-24-2005, 10:04 PM
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Wow! That's probably the first time I've ever heard anyone say they want to Queen to abdicate in favour on her son!Most people don't want him on the throne at all. Anyway, isn't the monarch supposed to be completley non- political and not get involved in matters of the government?:)
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  #128  
Old 10-24-2005, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
She should abdicate. She has done us a great service but thats it now. It's time to go and enjoy being the Dowager Queen. We need someone like Charles who will argue with the Government and speak his mind. Is nobody allowed to contradict the Government? He doesn't have to support them nor give his approval to everything they do. He has a right to express his opinion and he does it marvellously. The man will be a wonderful King and I shall be glad to have him as my Sovereign.
Since everything is done in the sovereign's name and not the actual person, they have to remail apolitical. It is not for them to express or side with the Tories or Labour, or any other political party.

I thought the monarch is represenational of all people in your country and therefore should not be expressing publicly any political views as that is why you have your parliamentary system of government.

The monarch is not supposed to have politcal power of any kind or rule in any capacity, as he or she only reigns, and there is a difference.
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  #129  
Old 10-24-2005, 11:48 PM
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The monarch, and the rest of the royal family, maintains the monarchy as a national symbol by staying out of politics. Charles hasn't learned that yet and until he does, he's a danger to the throne if he's on it. Right now, he can be ignored and pushed aside, but if he pulls this stuff while he's on the throne, expect the parliament and government to turn on the monarchy and hem him in.
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  #130  
Old 10-25-2005, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
She should abdicate. She has done us a great service but thats it now. It's time to go and enjoy being the Dowager Queen.
Do you really think she would enjoy it?


Quote:
We need someone like Charles who will argue with the Government and speak his mind. Is nobody allowed to contradict the Government?
Just about everybody except the monarch is allowed to contradict the government. Charles doesn't have the in-depth knowledge of a lot of issues to be safe arguing complex issues with the government. He'd only undermine himself when leaks started showing up in the papers about how the King had blathered on at length about this or that and the government had ignored him.

Quote:
He doesn't have to support them nor give his approval to everything they do. He has a right to express his opinion and he does it marvellously.
Sometimes he does. Other times his opinions are based on just enough knowledge to be dangerous and not nearly enough to be useful. For someone who knows so little about science, he doesn't let that ignorance stop him trying to influence the government based on some half-baked gut feeling. A person like that is very susceptible to being influenced by plausible-sounding snake oil salesmen, and the most unworthy causes often have the most plausible salesmen because that's the only way they get noticed.

Quote:
The man will be a wonderful King and I shall be glad to have him as my Sovereign.
It's entirely possible that he will be a wonderful king, but it won't be because he argues with the government.
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  #131  
Old 10-25-2005, 01:42 AM
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Oh, I must say that I hope for Her Majesty the Queen to reign for many more years to come yet. The day the Queen abdicates shall be the day hell freezes over!

"MII"
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  #132  
Old 10-25-2005, 02:51 AM
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Excellent points made, Elspeth and kelly9480, a monarch who reigns and does not have real political power NEVER should be involved, or make any public comments on, anything that has to do with the government operations.
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  #133  
Old 10-25-2005, 03:03 AM
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Maybe Queen Elizabeth II got so traumatized by her attendance of the silver wedding of Juliana and Bernhard in 1962 that she decided never to attend foreign royal events ever again (except the funeral of Baudouin, for PR reasons). According to a dutch magazine I have (In naam van Oranje) Queen Elizabeth II was angry that not she but the Sjah of Persia was the guest of honour, sitting on the right hand of Queen Juliana. Her mood didn't improve when the royal party entered the hall with photographers and empress Farah got most of the attention of the photographers. Furthermore, she had to be transported (with other royals) in a bus, which (according to the magazine) she entered hesitantly.

Furthermore we must consider her upbringing. Her mother never like the european royals. I think mainly because she feared some looked down on her (like Marina of Kent who once referred to her and Alice of Gloucester as common little scottish girls). Maybe she transferred her dislike to her eldest daughter.

Having this said I wonder about the ease with which some Anglo-Saxon posters in this thread claim that Queen Elizabeth II has the biggest workload and that only her sheduele is planned months in advance. What do they think continental royals do? They wake up, think: 'well, I really don't feel like meeting those people today, lets re-sheduele it' and they go back to sleep again?
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  #134  
Old 10-25-2005, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Having this said I wonder about the ease with which some Anglo-Saxon posters in this thread claim that Queen Elizabeth II has the biggest workload and that only her sheduele is planned months in advance. What do they think continental royals do? They wake up, think: 'well, I really don't feel like meeting those people today, lets re-sheduele it' and they go back to sleep again?
No, of course not. I see why you made the point and a valid one at that

Actually, in some circumstances the Queen's official programme has been looked over and confirmed a year in advance (eg; the Queen of Australia's official visit to Melbourne for the 2006 Commonwealth Games).

But one must not forget that as Queen of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and the Commonwealth dominions and nations (respectively), that Her Majesty's official workload does'nt solely consist of United Kingdom related matters and that the Queen does not retire until each and every doctrine, bill, letter, telegram, envelop & note is read and signed and placed securely back into the red despatch boxes. This has often taken her into the wee hours of the morning.

"MII"
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  #135  
Old 10-25-2005, 06:21 AM
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Re:

On Abdication

The Queen should abdicate in my opinion. The reason being that when Charles starts his reign, it's going to be very strange. The Queen won't be here and old fears may resurface. If the Queen is alive and well and in the backseat, she can calm people and give advice and help to Charles. It seems that the Crown means more to her than her children's future. She has to secure the throne for her heir and the only way I can see her doing that effectively is by abdicating. As MargretheII rightly said, she won't abdicate based on faith - I respect that but I see it as the wrong way to go about things.

On Charles

He doesn't answer back about everything, but he speaks on the issues that he is knowledgable about - for example, GM Foods and the Environment. Sadly, the Government refuse to listen to anyone else but themselves and so they see Charles as a problem. They could use him as a powerful political tool but because a certain political leader would like to be King Tony, that isn't going to happen and I don't think Gordon Brown will like Charles should he become PM (I don't think he will). Charles will have a choice - shut up or show up. He can stop offering opinions and show that the Monarchy is the puppet of the Government, or he can show up the Government by always offering his opinions.

On The Windsors and Europe

Quote:
What do they think continental royals do? They wake up, think: 'well, I really don't feel like meeting those people today, lets re-sheduele it' and they go back to sleep again?
Well said. Queen Beatrix seems to always be doing something and yet still manages to attend most events. I still think that QE2 doesn't make the effort she should at all. And if it is because she wasn't the Guest of Honour at a previous wedding then I'd say to her, "Ma'am, Would you mind getting over it?"
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  #136  
Old 10-25-2005, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Do you really think she would enjoy it?

Just about everybody except the monarch is allowed to contradict the government. Charles doesn't have the in-depth knowledge of a lot of issues to be safe arguing complex issues with the government. He'd only undermine himself when leaks started showing up in the papers about how the King had blathered on at length about this or that and the government had ignored him.

Sometimes he does. Other times his opinions are based on just enough knowledge to be dangerous and not nearly enough to be useful. For someone who knows so little about science, he doesn't let that ignorance stop him trying to influence the government based on some half-baked gut feeling. A person like that is very susceptible to being influenced by plausible-sounding snake oil salesmen, and the most unworthy causes often have the most plausible salesmen because that's the only way they get noticed.

It's entirely possible that he will be a wonderful king, but it won't be because he argues with the government.
I echo these sentiments!! How many times did Margaret Thatcher have to have words with him for his meddling??
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  #137  
Old 10-25-2005, 08:09 AM
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Staying rational

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
He can stop offering opinions and show that the Monarchy is the puppet of the Government, or he can show up the Government by always offering his opinions.
Are you unsubtly trying to bring about the end of the Monarchy? We have a Constitutional Monarchy based on the supremacy of the elected Parliament. It is not the role of the Prince of Wales, and certainly not the role of a King (or Queen) to "show up the government". The premise is nonsense, and I am sure you know it.

Stirring the pot is one thing; silly argument quite another.

W
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  #138  
Old 10-25-2005, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Are you unsubtly trying to bring about the end of the Monarchy? We have a Constitutional Monarchy based on the supremacy of the elected Parliament. It is not the role of the Prince of Wales, and certainly not the role of a King (or Queen) to "show up the government". The premise is nonsense, and I am sure you know it.

Stirring the pot is one thing; silly argument quite another.

W

Quite true, Warren, quite true!!
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  #139  
Old 10-25-2005, 08:16 AM
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Well supposedly the Queen did some meddling herself when Thatcher was taken out of power. I heard she had some hand in it.

I'm not going to blame Charles for speaking out. I never was impressed with the idea of the monarch being a silent figurehead. I just think its unnatural to expect someone to live their whole life that close to the action and never utter a word. The Queen is quite intelligent and is in a position of influence but you never know what she's thinking. That's not necessarily a good thing.
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  #140  
Old 10-25-2005, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
Well supposedly the Queen did some meddling herself when Thatcher was taken out of power. I heard she had some hand in it.
Don't think so, there were a lot of discontents among the leading Tories... It wasn't necessary for the Queen to emulate William IV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I'm not going to blame Charles for speaking out. I never was impressed with the idea of the monarch being a silent figurehead. I just think its unnatural to expect someone to live their whole life that close to the action and never utter a word. The Queen is quite intelligent and is in a position of influence but you never know what she's thinking. That's not necessarily a good thing.
George, Prince of Wales (future George V) wa embroiled in some controversy regarding the Royal Navy (he supported one admiral against the other, IIRC); I'm not sure that his son Edward did something like that, but it won't surprise me if he did. Thus, it is nothing new for Princes of Wales to make pronouncements on policy matters. But constitutional monarchs must stay silent, anything else is out of question.
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