The Windsors and Europe

[Claire]

Possible solutions

I asked this question a few months ago when Edward and Sophie attended the Danish Royal Wedding and this is what we came up with.

The choice of whom attends the wedding is noramally made by couriers and often depends on the rank of the person getting married. Normally Prince Charles attends the weddings of crown princes and princesses. The Earl and Countess of Wessex attend the rest and this included extended family members within Britain eg, Lady Sarah Catto, Helen Taylor, Ivar Mountbatten, ect.

The first been whom the invitation is made up to. Royal wedding invitations are normally addressed to the Queen as the head of the family, she can than sent out whom she wishes. It once happened at William Alexander's wedding where Edward was invited separately, so we got the unually occurarance that Charles, Edward and Sophie attended. It is possible that Edward and Sophie might just have more in common with the current generation of European royals than his siblings. It must be remembered there are post-parties, yacht rides and a whole range of wedding things that I not certain Charles or the Queen will be comfortable at.

When Prince Charles attends, it is an official engagement. He'll arrive before the wedding and leave shortly afterwards. Edward and Sophie often do all the pre-wedding festivites and the post parties. The problem is if Charles or Andrew do the whole wedding party thing, the press will concerntrate on that and not on the bride or groom. The headline will be "Charles and Camilla watch Royal Wedding in longing for their own" or "Randy and Girl-Friend of the week party at Royal Bash." Edward and Sophie are low key the press don't care. They also don't like sending Charles to orthodox Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox weddings. They have to find out if the Royal Family is okay with divorcees.

The Queen doesn't attend weddings due to the problem created due to her security demands. There is also a dillema regarding protocol. The Queen is the longest reigning monarch among the current monarchs and thus is the highest ranked royal in protocal. You can understand the problem that the parents of the bride and groom should be given that honour. Or that political close royals normally will give the precedent to each other, eg. the Scandinavian royals. There is also a problem that the Queen's engagements are finalised a year and a bit in advanced.

 

[kelly9480]

Carl Gustav doesn't work as hard as the rest. He's informed in meetings what's going on in the government, he doesn't get daily documents like the others. And you can look at the Norwegian's official schedule and see that they don't carry out half as many engagements as some of the other royals houses. The workload in the UK is greater than in any other monarchy.

 

[ElisaR]

I asked this question a few months ago when Edward and Sophie attended the Danish Royal Wedding and this is what we came up with.

The choice of whom attends the wedding is noramally made by couriers and often depends on the rank of the person getting married. Normally Prince Charles attends the weddings of crown princes and princesses. The Earl and Countess of Wessex attend the rest and this included extended family members within Britain eg, Lady Sarah Catto, Helen Taylor, Ivar Mountbatten, ect.

The first been whom the invitation is made up to. Royal wedding invitations are normally addressed to the Queen as the head of the family, she can than sent out whom she wishes. It once happened at William Alexander's wedding where Edward was invited separately, so we got the unually occurarance that Charles, Edward and Sophie attended. It is possible that Edward and Sophie might just have more in common with the current generation of European royals than his siblings. It must be remembered there are post-parties, yacht rides and a whole range of wedding things that I not certain Charles or the Queen will be comfortable at.

When Prince Charles attends, it is an official engagement. He'll arrive before the wedding and leave shortly afterwards. Edward and Sophie often do all the pre-wedding festivites and the post parties. The problem is if Charles or Andrew do the whole wedding party thing, the press will concerntrate on that and not on the bride or groom. The headline will be "Charles and Camilla watch Royal Wedding in longing for their own" or "Randy and Girl-Friend of the week party at Royal Bash." Edward and Sophie are low key the press don't care. They also don't like sending Charles to orthodox Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox weddings. They have to find out if the Royal Family is okay with divorcees.

The Queen doesn't attend weddings due to the problem created due to her security demands. There is also a dillema regarding protocol. The Queen is the longest reigning monarch among the current monarchs and thus is the highest ranked royal in protocal. You can understand the problem that the parents of the bride and groom should be given that honour. Or that political close royals normally will give the precedent to each other, eg. the Scandinavian royals. There is also a problem that the Queen's engagements are finalised a year and a bit in advanced.

I think these are the most likely reasons, especially protocol.
Now I remember that I watched Prince Felipe of Spain's wedding on TV and, while I was seeing all the Royals arriving to church, I thought: "Now I understand why the Queen never attends weddings: she would have precedence over them all, even Juan Carlos and Sophia, but this would be very odd."
When she goes abroad, she is regarded as the most important person and she takes precedence, but a wedding is half-way between public and private, the bride and groom must be at the centre of the scene, so the Queen's presence would be embarassing for them all, and also for herself.
If she stays at home, no one will have any problem (and taxpayers will be more happy).

 

[Vicomtesse]

The Queen doesn't attend weddings due to the problem created due to her security demands. There is also a dillema regarding protocol. The Queen is the longest reigning monarch among the current monarchs and thus is the highest ranked royal in protocal. You can understand the problem that the parents of the bride and groom should be given that honour. Or that political close royals normally will give the precedent to each other, eg. the Scandinavian royals.

When a couple gets married their parents sit separately from the royal guests. So there would be no problem if Queen Elizabeth attended that she would be deemed more important than even the parents of the bride and groom and about where to sit her even BEFORE the parents.
What happens then when the Queen attends a wedding in London??? Doe she sit before the parents right behind the bride and groom??? NO. She sits as the first guest on one side.
This isn't a valid reason for explaining why the Queen goes to weddings in the country but not in other countries.
If security is such a problem how do you explain the security problems when she visits other countries??? Only at weddings in other countries is there a security problem right???

 

[Ennyllorac]

Why does she take precedence over other royals? Isn't the monarchy in Denmark the oldest monarchy?

 

[kelly9480]

There are security provisions in place when she visits other countries, same as there are for when other monarchs visit the UK. Juan Carlos doesn't attend events because of ETA factor and because he doesn't want to. EIIR may not attend due to the security factor and the fact that she isn't interested. Several times, she has had to cancel at the last minute due to problems in the government.

Monarchs take precedence according to length of reign (and sometimes rank, meaning Rainier, even though the longest-reigning monarch in Europe, would rank only before Hans-Adam).

 

[sandee]

Why does she take precedence over other royals? Isn't the monarchy in Denmark the oldest monarchy?

Yeah, thats what I was thinking too..

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking too..

I think it is becaus she has been queen for the longest time her in Europe

 

[wymanda]

Why does she take precedence over other royals? Isn't the monarchy in Denmark the oldest monarchy?

Because she is the oldest reigning monarch titled "Majesty" and has been monarch the longest. Prince Rainer is older but he is only a Serene Highness.

 

[HMQueenElizabethII]

Yes,i also think so.The Queen is the longest reigning monarch in Europe now.Why should you always want The Queen to appear at the Weddings?How old is she now?We should not let someone do things they do not like!She has worked a lot,she is so hard-working.I know that Queen Margrethe,Queen Beatrix,King Carl Gustav,King Juan Carlos,...also work hard but you must remember first Queen Elizabeth II is already 52 years on the throne!How long are the others?

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

Yes,i also think so.The Queen is the longest reigning monarch in Europe now.Why should you always want The Queen to appear at the Weddings?How old is she now?We should not let someone do things they do not like!She has worked a lot,she is so hard-working.I know that Queen Margrethe,Queen Beatrix,King Carl Gustav,King Juan Carlos,...also work hard but you must remember first Queen Elizabeth II is already 52 years on the throne!How long are the others?

Queen Margrethe of Denmark has been monarch of Denmark for almost 33 years.
She became Queen January 1972 and she is still Queen in 2004

 

[Iain]

The Queen is the longest reigning monarch among the current monarchs and thus is the highest ranked royal in protocal.

The longest reigning monarch in Europe is Prince Rainier of Monaco. The British media claim that Elizabeth is the world's longest reinging monarch (she's the third longest reingning) but they have been claiming that since her silver jublilee when she was tenth longest reinging.

 

[Feberin]

I think the British are quite close to the Greek royals because of Prince Phillip being Greek. And I don't know of any foreign princes or princesses that are still living who have married into the British royal family. I think with a lot of the other royals its because they are attending the weddings of nieces, nephews and cousins. Although the Queen is related to many houses of Europe those connections go way back and are getting pretty distant now. So she sends a representative instead of attending the events herself.

 

[ElisaR]

There have been some exeptions.

I found this picture on Corbis (The Queen is in the first row).

Caption:
Portrait of Royal Gathering
Original caption: Royal Gathering. Amsterdam: The biggest mass gathering of royalty in recent years convenes to help the Netherlands' Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard celebrate their silver wedding anniversary. In front row (left to right) are: Prince Philip of England; Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg; Queen Elizabeth of England; the Shah of Iran; Queen Juliana; Prince Bernhard; Princess Armagard, Bernhard's mother; Prince Jean, heir to Luxembourg throne; Empress Far ah of Iran, and Prince Felix of Luxembourg. Second row, left to right: Princess Margaretha of Sweden; Princess Josphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg; Princess Margriet (Juliana's third daughter); Prince Bertil of Sweden; Crown Princess Beatrix; Princess Marijke (youngest daughter, just visible between heads of Juliana and Bernhard); King Olav VI of Norway; Prince Aschwin von Lippe-Biesterfeld, Bernhard's brother; an

© Bettmann/CORBIS

Date Photographed: May 1, 1962 Location Information: Amsterdam, Netherlands

 

[Vicomtesse]

There have been some exeptions.

I found this picture on Corbis (The Queen is in the first row).

Caption:
Portrait of Royal Gathering
Original caption: Royal Gathering. Amsterdam: The biggest mass gathering of royalty in recent years convenes to help the Netherlands' Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard celebrate their silver wedding anniversary. In front row (left to right) are: Prince Philip of England; Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg; Queen Elizabeth of England; the Shah of Iran; Queen Juliana; Prince Bernhard; Princess Armagard, Bernhard's mother; Prince Jean, heir to Luxembourg throne; Empress Far ah of Iran, and Prince Felix of Luxembourg. Second row, left to right: Princess Margaretha of Sweden; Princess Josphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg; Princess Margriet (Juliana's third daughter); Prince Bertil of Sweden; Crown Princess Beatrix; Princess Marijke (youngest daughter, just visible between heads of Juliana and Bernhard); King Olav VI of Norway; Prince Aschwin von Lippe-Biesterfeld, Bernhard's brother; an

© Bettmann/CORBIS

Date Photographed: May 1, 1962 Location Information: Amsterdam, Netherlands

This is PROOF then that the Queen of England HAS travelled to other royal celebrations in the past so it is NOT a breech of security for her NOW. But just that the Queen chooses NOT to attend royal celebrations NOW.
It all comes down to a choice and obviously the Queen chooses NOT to gather with the other royals.

 

[kelly9480]

You, of course, realise that the IRA threat existed from 1969 to 1998, don't you? This photo was in 1962. The security threat was much higher in those three decades than before, though, according to some in the UK, the threat from Islamic fundamentalists is greater towards her now than the IRA ever was.

 

[RoseMary]

The Queen can not possibly travel to every royal wedding there is. She is foremost a servant of the British people and on more than one ocassion she has to chose between events.

When she doesn't attend an event with other royals there is probably good reasons such as previously scheduled events or something she and her office feel is a priority. She should strive to have good relations with the other royal families but She is first and foremost a servant of the British people.

 

[james]

The IRA excuse is hilarious.The Queen has visited NORTHERN IRELAND (You know, IRA territory) numerous times throughout her reign. She is also thee most INTERNATIONALLY travelled Monarch in British history even visiting rather risky places like Jordan and the Arabian Gulf over the years. So there really is no good reason why she has mainly ignored European weddings, funerals etc over the years.

I do think her behaviour is rude as every major European Royal has travelled to Britain without exception over the years to attend our big Royal events including the Queens jubilee in 2002. Yet Josephine Charlotte of Luxemburg (an attendee at the recent jubilee celebrations as well as numerous other events in the U.K. over the years ) dies this month; the sovereigns of Europe attend her funeral and who represents Britain, Prince Andrew.

Then again, if Europe's Royals are going to allow themselves to be treated this way then they really only have themselves to blame. Perhaps the next time Queen Elizabeth holds a major event they should absent themselves and send a Prince or Princess in their place. I wonder what Her Majesty would make of that.

 

[grecka]

I think james and vicomtesse are going a bit overboard on the whole situation. The Queen has many obligations in Britain and she performs probably more royal engagements than any other reigning monarch in Europe. Also, I think it's quite apparent she doesn't enjoy great royal weddings and things like that. She seems to me to be a thoroughly unpretentious and rather middle-class woman and I don't think she likes to parade around in tiaras with other royals any more than she has too. And, aside from that, she's nearly 80 years old. The only other European monarch who's that old is Rainier, and he most certainly doesn't attend royal events (albeit for the reason of his health rather than just age). I don't fault Queen Elizabeth at all for this, and I indentify with her feelings of reticence over attending such events with her life the way it is right now.

 

[james]

Yes the Queen is almost eighty but her absence from European events has been ongoing on for almost forty years.

I am not making a big deal about anything. The fact is that Europe's Heads of State have been attending British Royal events for decades whilst the British Head of State, for no obvious reason, has chosen to absent herself from similar events in Europe.

That is simply the way things are and continue to be.

 

[Iain]

I think james and vicomtesse are going a bit overboard on the whole situation. The Queen has many obligations in Britain and she performs probably more royal engagements than any other reigning monarch in Europe.

I don't think she does have any more royal engagements than other monarchs, in fact, she probably does a lot less. I've said the following in the Luxembourg forum but will repeat it here, Consider this. Elizabeth has a months break over Christmas and new year. She has another months break at Easter and a two month break in the summer when she goes to Balmoral. During those four months she carries out no royal duties. During the rest of the year she stays at Windsor from Friday to Monday and again, carries out no duties over her four day weekend. That leaves three days in the week for royal engagements. That means that there are only around 96 days in the year when royal engagements are carried out, and this has been her schedule throughout her reign. Once a year in July she comes to Edinburgh to take up residence At Holyrood Palace for a week. Yes, A whole week! During this week she performs her duties as Queen of Scots. Scotland and England are supposed to be equal partners in a union but Scotland, the more ancient of the two kingdoms and the country that gave the so called "United" Kingdom it's royal family, has all it's royal engagements crammed into that one week. A couple of weeks ago Scotland was hit by a hurricane in which eight people died, including five members of the same family. Elizabeth has never paid a visit to any of the worst hit areas. Had this happened in the Netherlands Beatrix would have visited in a matter of hours. It's little wonder that the Windsors are so unpopular in Scotland and are ragarded as being too out of touch and far too English. A few years ago I was on a bus in Edinburgh travelling into the city centre. The traffic was almost at a standstill and people were becoming very impatient. The driver radioed to his control to find out what was going on and was told it was a royal visit. This really annoyed the passengers and the air was begining to turn blue. Just then a police officer arrived on the scene and spoke to the driver. The next thing he announced "It's the queen of the Netherlands." At that, everyone calmed down and one lady said "Oh that's alright, I thought it was one of those buggers from London." That incedent summed up the feeling of the Scots towards the Windsors.

 

[Regina]

In my opinion, Queen Elizabeth II is too shy to socialize with other Royals. She is not and never was like Princess Máxima, for exemple.

She is too shy to go to weddings and have small talk with other guests...

 

[Reina]

To me one of the great things about QEII is that she does not attend European ROyal events yet other Euro. royals love to go to her events! I think that this is the mark of greatness. ANd also cuz she is the one of the longest reigning monarchs ahead of all other Euro monarchs with the exception of Ranier. ANd hse is much older than the others. MOst of them are 69 or so, but she is 80. And I think that she just does not have that much in common with the others. WHy blame her. Get over it and except that she and the institution are the greatest.

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

To me one of the great things about QEII is that she does not attend European ROyal events yet other Euro. royals love to go to her events! I think that this is the mark of greatness. ANd also cuz she is the one of the longest reigning monarchs ahead of all other Euro monarchs with the exception of Ranier. ANd hse is much older than the others. MOst of them are 69 or so, but she is 80. And I think that she just does not have that much in common with the others. WHy blame her. Get over it and except that she and the institution are the greatest.

I don´t tink that she,her family or her instituion are the greatest her in europa.

 

[aninhas]

To me one of the great things about QEII is that she does not attend European ROyal events yet other Euro. royals love to go to her events! I think that this is the mark of greatness. ANd also cuz she is the one of the longest reigning monarchs ahead of all other Euro monarchs with the exception of Ranier. ANd hse is much older than the others. MOst of them are 69 or so, but she is 80. And I think that she just does not have that much in common with the others. WHy blame her. Get over it and except that she and the institution are the greatest.

I agree with you Reina. I respect the other Monarchs very much, but in my opinion the Real and the Greatest Royal Institutions in Europe are the British and the French Royal Family.
Why should Queen Elizabeth II assist to weddings in Luxemburg or Monaco if these countries are residuals monarchies?...

 

[kelly9480]

To say that she carries out fewer engagements than the other monarchs is nonsense. Carl Gustaf doesn't meet regularly with his PM. The Norwegian royals combined carry out fewer engagements than she does, though Harald meets with his government weekly. Beatrix spends most of her time behind a desk and in meetings, whereas EIIR spends time at the desk and with her ppl. Rainier is basically an absolute monarch, but a lot of duties are being passed to Albert. Hans-Adam basically retired. Margrethe spends 6 weeks in France, and devotes a lot of her time to her artistic endeavours. Henri has no where near the number of duties EIIR has, his country's too small for that. Albert has a lot of duties, but spends a lot more of his time behind a desk. Regardless of how many duties the other monarchs carry out, however, we have to keep in mind that of them, only Rainier is of her same generation -- and he is noticibly slowing down.

She does carry out official engagements even when she's not in London. Someone from Canada was at Sandringham within the last week or so. She also makes visits around Norfolk. At Balmoral she hosts the PM for a weekend. She doesn't have a month off for Easter, only a weekend, from Good Friday to Easter Monday. She does the red boxes pretty much everyday.

You cannot expect a foreign country to protect EIIR from the IRA. Juan Carlos doesn't ask other countries to protect him from ETA and that terrorist threat has been listed as one of the main reasons he doesn't go to many events. Same thing with EIIR.

She leaves for Windsor Friday afternoons and returns to London Monday around lunchtime, so it's not like she has four-day weekends. She also has dine-and-sleeps where she hosts the government and some important guests at Windsor some weekends, so even there she is working.

There's not really a lot for her to do in Scotland. Anne's in Scotland a lot, so a lot of visits are covered by her. Charles is also there a lot. There's not really anything in Scotland that requires EIIR to be there anymore, so she's not there as often.

We also have to acknowledge that she may not enjoy weddings and funerals. Some ppl, myself included, don't. It's better that she not attend at all than attend in a bad mood, as Charles has been accused of doing several times.

 

[timtonruben359]

It is actually not the Queen's decision. It is the Royal Household that decides which member(s) of the Royal Family will attend Royal events abroad. It is an unwritten tradition at Buckingham Palace that the Queen does not attend royal weddings or funeral abroad. Therefore, they actually rarely ask her if she wants to go.

It also has to do with a few other factors. The Queen's engagements are book around 2 years in advanced. It has been noted by people that have worked with her that the Queen does not like to cancel her engagements unless she is physically unable to attend. She feels that it's her duty, as well she knows people are looking forward to seeing her and does not want to disappoint them.
Then there is security. When the QUeen travels aboard it is the responsiblity of the host country to meet her security needs. If she was the only monarch to attend a royal wedding or funeral, that's fine, but when you have the Kings/Queens of many countries, security would be streched tight.

I don't think Europe's royals are offended that she doesn't attend. Infact, they usually don't expect her to attend.

It is interesting to note, there is plenty of private visits between royals throughout the year. We never hear about them though because they are not annouced.

 

[Iain]

EIIR spends time at the desk and with her ppl.

There's not really a lot for her to do in Scotland. Anne's in Scotland a lot, so a lot of visits are covered by her. Charles is also there a lot. There's not really anything in Scotland that requires EIIR to be there anymore, so she's not there as often.

First of all, she doesn't spend a lot of time with her people. Most other monarchs are far more accessible to their people than Elizabeth is. As for there not being anything for her to do in Scotland, I've never heard such a load of rubbish in my life. Scotland is a country and a kingdom, and like all monarchies has duties for it's monarch to perform. It's monarch not a prince or princess. If she wants to be regarded as queen of Scots then its about time she started acting like one. I am a monarchist, but in all honesty I'd rather have republic than have the Windsors on the throne.

And to those who claim that Elizabeth and the British monarchy are "the greatest", It's well seen that you don't live in Britain or you wouldn't claim that.

 

[kelly9480]

There is nothing in Scotland that absolutely requires the monarch's presence. There's not a State Opening of Parliament. She's not likely to be asked to address Holyrood every year, or anything like that. She's not asked to open the General Synod in person, but is allowed to delegate that. Other than a garden party, and the Thistle ceremony, she isn't desperately required there. If something in Scotland absolutely had to be done by her, she'd be there. But she doesn't feel that she is absolutely required. And perhaps that's simply her perception of things, but it's not like Scots are in the streets demanding to see their Queen. Would it be nice if she were there more often? Yes, of course. But approval ratings seem to indicate they are perfectly happy with the job Anne is doing, and perhaps also Charles. They may like to see EIIR, but they may not be making that clear enough to her, her staff or the press.

Scotland is not a kindgom. It's part of a kingdom, but in no way can it be considered on par with Canada or Belize, independent kingdoms who also happen to share a monarch with the UK. She isn't Queen of Scots. She isn't even Queen of Scotland. She's Queen of the UK, which includes Scotland. She has never officially called herself Queen of Scots. To hold her to some standard as Queen of Scots, when she doesn't consider herself that is to ask for disappointment time and again.

In terms of workload, the Windsors are easily the greatest. They carry out more engagements than any of the others, though I would suspect Belgium and Spain compete for number 2. In terms of grandeur, they are the greatest, easily. No other monarchy in Europe can claim something like Windsor castle or the Coronation ceremony. In terms of being one of the ppl, they fall into the middle of the pack, depending on the family member. It depends on what a person is basing "greatest" on to say whether or not the Windsors are first.

 

[Reina]

And to those who claim that Elizabeth and the British monarchy are "the greatest", It's well seen that you don't live in Britain or you wouldn't claim that.

I don't live in the other kingdoms either. I think that the other monarchies are nice, but they are mediocre esp. compared to the institution of the British monarchy. Also I think that they like to copy what the British monarchy does.