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  #41  
Old 04-22-2011, 11:01 PM
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The Royal Marriages Act 1772 (RMA) and The Farran Exemption

Explain it?
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  #42  
Old 04-26-2011, 06:03 AM
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The RMA states that all descendents of George II have to seek the permission of the monarch in order to contract a legal marriage.

There was a general exemption given for the descendents of British princesses who married into foreign royal houses.

The Farran exemption argues that as a result of the exemption for the descendents of British princesses who married into foreign royal houses the act itself no longer applies as the current British royal family are descended from George II's daughter Caroline Mathilde who married Frederick VII of Denmark - Queen Alexandra was a direct descendent of Caroline Mathilde and thus all of her descendents are exempt - including the present Queen and her descendents.

In addition Queen Mary was also a descendent of a British Princess who married into a foreign royal house when her mother married into the Teck family and thus again exempts all her descendents again including the Queen.

A third exemption would come through Philip who is not only a descendent of the aforementioned Caroline Mathilde but also of Queen Victoria's second daughter Alice who married into the foreign royal house of Hesse.

The Hanoverians, who also ask permission are also exempt as they are descended from Queen Victoria's eldest daughter Victoria.

So why do the family and the Hanoverians still ask - simply because none have argued that they don't need to do so and challenged the RMA in a Court of Law to get a ruling on the interpretation that being descendents of British princesses who married into foreign houses they no longer need to ask permission.

It is called the 'Farran Exemption' because the interpretation was made by a Mr Farran. It was publicised in the 1950s but was also challenged including the fact that some of these 'foreign houses' weren't really foreign as the partners were descendents of the Electress Sophia of Hannover and thus were British citizens (at least until 1948 when the law was changed to say that not all her descendents were automatically British citizens e.g. Kaiser Wilhelm was a British citizen as a descendent of Sophia who was born before 1948).
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  #43  
Old 08-30-2011, 10:26 AM
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Quick question about the Royal Marriages Act.

In the Monaco forums we are debating about Ernst August and why he asked permission to wed Princess Caroline of Monaco.

I said because of his descent from George III, whose son became King of Hanover upon the death of William IV, as Salic law prevented Queen Victoria from reigning in Hanover. Ernst Agust's descent from this King of Hanover is why he had to ask permission from Queen Elizabeth II to marry Caroline.

Another poster believes because its because of his descent from Viktoria Luise, who was the granddaughter of Empress Frederick (Princess Victoria the daughter of Queen Victoria of the UK). Thus she was a great granddaughter of Queen Victoria.

From what I remember, British princesses who marry into foreign royal houses are exempt from the Royal Marriages Act. Thus eliminating Princess Victoria upon her marriage to Prince Frederick of Prussia so did her descendants become exempt from the law. So although the descent of Ernst August to Viktoria Luise is closer.....he actually had to seek permission because of his great great (however many greats there are) grandfather, who was the son of George III.

So what is the correct answer?
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  #44  
Old 08-30-2011, 01:50 PM
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Well he "has to" seek approval as a descendent of George II, but his former relevent place in the succession came from his descent for Queen Victoria. I would say he still falls under the exemption of being a descendent of a princess who married abroad and is not required to seek approval.

There is also the debatable Farran Exemption which claims that all of Edwards VII's descendents would be exempt because Queen Alexandra was a descendent of George II so as a descendent of British princesses who married abroad the current Royal family should all be exempt as well.

I sincerely doubt that all of George II descendents(there must be thousands by now) outside of QV British descendents, still apply for permission to marry. Some probably don't even know they are his descendents.

I suspect the Hanovers do it as a way of asserting their continued claim to be Princes of Great Britain and Ireland.
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  #45  
Old 08-30-2011, 01:57 PM
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NGalitzine I am sure that you are, as usual, correct! There was much comment in the better papers at the time that there was no 'legal' need for Ernst to seek the Queen's consent and that he did so for what their leader writers called 'self-aggrandisement'!

Ernst was only ever very distant in the line of succession, and now he is not in it at all!

Alex
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  #46  
Old 08-30-2011, 02:11 PM
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Well, he is not it in because he married a Roman Catholic not because there were so many he fell out of the top 500. And to my point, Ernest August (1845-1923) was granted permission to marry Thyra of Denmark....way before his son married Viktoria Louise. But than again, he was a Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale

And actually, according to this list, found here Royal Marriages Act 1772 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia there a lot of names that some if not most of us are not familiar with. For example, who is Amelia May Beaumont? She received permission to marry

ORDERS APPROVED AT THE PRIVY COUNCIL HELD BY THE QUEEN AT BUCKINGHAM PALACE ON 2nd MAY 2007 AT 5.30 PM
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  #47  
Old 08-30-2011, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Well, he is not it in because he married a Roman Catholic not because there were so many he fell out of the top 500
I was merely including this to try to emphasise the point that it was not as if he needed permssion because he was going to remain in the line of succession [however distant] .


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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
For example, who is Amelia May Beaumont? She received permission to marry

Although Amelia is probably 'below the radar' so far as TRF members are concerned, she is well known in society circles as a desendant of Princess May of Teck.
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  #48  
Old 08-30-2011, 02:39 PM
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Thank you for the information on Amelia Beaumont.

I assume you mean Princess Mary Adelaide of Teck (formerly Princess of Cambridge) and not Princess May of Teck (who later became Queen Mary). So with that in mind, it appears that some people (other than those descended from Queen Victoria) seek the monarch's permission to marry. As Queen Victoria was descended from one son (Edward) and Mary Adelaide from another (Aldophus).
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  #49  
Old 08-30-2011, 03:11 PM
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The confusion exists because Queen Mary was actually born Princess Victoria but always called Princess May by her family! [talk about complicating the issue!!!]

Provided I am remembering correctly, Amelia Beaumont's forebear was actually born Princess MAY; Princess May's father was the Earl of Athlone [after renouncing his German title] and therefore the youngest son of Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge that you mention.

I am just chasing my youngest up to bed as it is Nanny's day off, but as soon as operations are complete I will get out Burke's Peerage. Princess May married an Abel Smith. In the Royal Enclosure at Ascot you always come across numerous Abel Smiths which is how I happen to know of the family [we all have to wear name badges, which is handy!!] and they are often at what I suppose one would term the 'society' as opposed to 'celebrity' parties.

I will post any corrections later tonight or tomorrow.

Alex
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  #50  
Old 08-30-2011, 03:29 PM
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Definite confusion. No need for the research Alex. I looked some stuff up on Wikipedia.

Queen Mary was often referred to as Princess May but there was an official Princess May of Teck (one assumes she was named after her aunt)!. She was born Princess May of Teck but most of us probably know her (as I do) Lady May Cambridge (after the 1917 change by George V to the House of Windsor and a bunch of people lost their titles. After her marriage she became Lady May Abel Smith. The daughter of the Earl of Athlone (Mary's brother) and Princess Alice of Albany (son of Victoria's son Leopold). Alice's brother is the great great grandfather (might have missed a great in there) of the King Carl Gustav of Sweden.

She was a bridesmaid for a couple of people (Princess Patricia of Connaught, Lady Elizabeth Bowes Lyon and the Duke of York, Princess Mary).

So the question becomes............what link did she seek the monarch's permission to marry? She is related three different ways that I know off the bat.

George II> George III > Edward >Victoria>Leopold>Alice >May > Richard Francis > Katherine > Amelia
George II> George III> Aldophus > Mary Adelaide > Alexander > May > Richard Francis > Katherine >Amelia
George II> Mary >Landgrave Frederick III of Hesse-Kassel >Augusta> Mary Adelaide > Alexander > May> Richard Francis > Katherine > Amelia

Another example of why I love British royal history. The history, the links, etc.
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  #51  
Old 08-30-2011, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
...In the Royal Enclosure at Ascot you always come across numerous Abel Smiths...
Are their many Abel Smiths (by that surname) around? I thought Richard (Sir Henry and Lady May`s only son) only had a daughter who married a Beaumont. One sister (Mary I think) married a Scottish politician and had several children, and the other sister had a girl who died as an infant I believe.
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  #52  
Old 08-30-2011, 05:09 PM
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Hello NGaltizine

Yes, there do happen to be quite a lot of Abel Smiths about. And they are all very well connected, so to me it is the close branches of the same family. Off the top of my head, I can easily think of two: there was a Lady Abel Smith who was a Lady in Waiting to the Queen. She used to be in the Royal Household stand at Royal Ascot and seemed to me to be quite old - the Queen Mother's generation. And from the younger generation, one [Ned] is a friend of Princess Beatrice. He works for........Richard Branson, who I think is his second cousin or an uncle or something. Actually, to be strictly accurate, Ned is no longer an Abel Smith because he recently officially changed his name to Ned Rock and Roll. This is true. Your humble Diarist has not been at the cooking sherry in order to try to get through Nanny's day off! Ned Rock and Roll used to hang out at Cowdray Park Polo Club - he married one of the present Lord Cowdray's daughters. This caused raised eyebrows because it was a pagan wedding ceremony and Lord Cowdray is Patron of various local livings [ Church of England churches] and therefore has the say-so about approving new Church of England vicars to local parishes, which did not fit in too easily with his Pagan beliefs. If you see what I mean.

Alex
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  #53  
Old 08-30-2011, 05:43 PM
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LOL, Mr Ned Rock and Roll and the Hon Mrs Rock and Roll.....I love it....can you imagine the looks when they are announced at a party. HM would be reaching for her Dubonnet.
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  #54  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:56 AM
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From your joke there actually flows quite an interesting genuine point: from birth, members of the BRF are trained never to let so much of an eyebrow flicker if something not expected happens. Therefore, if meeting a group of soldiers informally and some 'barrack room language' e.g. a quick expletive, slips out 'It was *****dark, Ma'am and I could not see who was firing at me', the Royal will not flicker, even though those nearby e.g. the Commanding Officer in my example, might immediately react, even if only with a sharp intake of breath... And it does not even have to be bad langauge: when a chunk of the ceiling fell off at an Investiture in BP and injured one of the guests, the Queen carried on without a flicker; similarly - and even more seriously - when the madman fired a pistol at the Queen in the Mall on the way to the Birthday Parade, she merely steadied her mount [this was in the days when she rode Burmese] and continued on her way.........

The people who are not so well trained to carry on as if nothing has happened are the members her Household!! If indeed the rumours and speculation are all correct and Princess Beatrice DOES marry Dave Clark, then it would appear to be a 'given' that Ned Rock and Roll would be invited.........can you therefore imagine the face of the Lord Chamberlain as he prepares to send out the invitations [which, strictly are Royal Commands] as he looks down Beatrice's guest list??!!

It's good to have a laugh!!

Alex
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  #55  
Old 08-31-2011, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
In the Monaco forums we are debating about Ernst August and why he asked permission to wed Princess Caroline of Monaco.
Ernst-August is a direct male-line descendant of George III. He does have many other line of descent (which is common among Victoria's descendants), but the male-line is what matters.

Technically, he does not need permission from The Queen to marry as he is not a subject of The Sovereign and a citizen of Germany. But he also holds British nationality and has property there, so the Hanovers continue to seek permission. But from a practical point of view, it is not necessary and the Crown is unlikely to take action regardless.
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  #56  
Old 11-10-2011, 12:51 PM
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I have a question out of curiosity for those members who are better informed than me about the British royal history. I understand that , due to the Salic Law at Hannover, the Personal union between the crowns of Britain and Hannover ended and Victoria got the first Crown, while her uncle th Duke of Cumberland the second. However the new King of Hannover a sovereign in his own right and his succesors still had to ask permission from the British sovereign. I know that the kingdom existed for about three decades after the end of the personal union, but I wonder if there was ever talk during this time to amend the RMA. After all, it does seem right or respectable for a foreigner sovereign and head of his own family to be obliged to ask another sovereign for permission to marry. So was there ever talk to change the RMA and make an exemption for the Hannoverians and do you think that if Hannover existed for longer (until WWI lets say) the issue would have been raised?
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:02 PM
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No reason the change the act for the Hannovers. After all the monarchs of Norway, Sweden and Denmark are in the line of succession but they do not apply to QE2 for permission to marry.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:12 PM
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Yes but those houses are the issue of princesses who married abroad and are excempt. I believe that the Hannoverians, until Viktoria Luise of Prussia married into the family, were only male line descendants of George II and so, shouldn't permission be mandatory and wouldn't it be awkward if they still reigned or reigned for longer??
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:16 PM
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The Hannovers are still bounded by the Royal Marriages Act; and in fact in 1998 or 1999 Prince Ernst August had to ask (and eventually was granted) the permission of Queen Elizabeth II in order to marry to Princess Caroline of Monaco.
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:28 PM
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The Hannovers are still bounded by the Royal Marriages Act; and in fact in 1998 or 1999 Prince Ernst August had to ask (and eventually was granted) the permission of Queen Elizabeth II in order to marry to Princess Caroline of Monaco.
This issue had been gone round and round and round. The Hannovers are under no obligation to apply for permission to marry, but continue to do so as a family tradition which reminds people of their links to the BRF, in much the same way as they still use the title of Prince of Great Britain and Ireland. Its a case of them not having to apply but wanting to apply. The Dukes of Coburg are male line descendents of Queen Victoria,and also have a distant place in the line of succession, and they feel no obligation to apply to the British monarch for permission to marry. Like the Hannovers they are also heirs to a suspended British dukedom.
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