The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022

[Dman]

Considering the source, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one but it would be very nice if it did come to pass. I just don't trust the Daily Mail and their "sources" at all.

Neither do I, but I'm really hoping this year Catherine will receive a knighthood from The Queen, especially in her jubilee year.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The Queen is not acknowledging a Jubilee this year so it isn't really a Jubilee year at all. She is more interested in the 70th wedding anniversary than any further celebrations relating to her father's death.

 

[Countessmeout]

The RFO yes. She is stepping up duties and has been married nearly six years.

But a knighthood I don't see happening yet. Sophie was knighted in 2010, 11 years after marriage. Camilla in 2012, seven years after marriage. Kate is at barely did, and none as a full time royal?

I see a RFO for the jubilee and a knighthood after a few years as a full time Royal. This is the pattern with the other senior Royal women. Sophie likely waited as she wasn't a full time Royal the first years, they had jobs.

 

[Dman]

The Queen is not acknowledging a Jubilee this year so it isn't really a Jubilee year at all. She is more interested in the 70th wedding anniversary than any further celebrations relating to her father's death.

Right, but she can still appoint Catherine to a knighthood this year.

The RFO yes. She is stepping up duties and has been married nearly six years.

But a knighthood I don't see happening yet. Sophie was knighted in 2010, 11 years after marriage. Camilla in 2012, seven years after marriage. Kate is at barely did, and none as a full time royal?

I see a RFO for the jubilee and a knighthood after a few years as a full time Royal. This is the pattern with the other senior Royal women. Sophie likely waited as she wasn't a full time Royal the first years, they had jobs.

Sophie was appointed to the Venerable Order of Saint John in 2005. Catherine can get a knighthood this year. Especially after her years of service and now that she's attending major State events wear the orders are worn.

 

[Ish]

Are we having this fight again? Didn't we just have it?

 

[Dman]

Are we having this fight again? Didn't we just have it?

No fight, just hope!

 

[cepe]

Knighted?

 

[Dman]

I haven't seen any evidence of a fight, but I have seen evidence over a possibility of Catherine receiving an appointment from The Queen.

I'm just holding on to hope for this year.

 

[Countessmeout]

Actually past discussion was about RFO not knighting. Knighting is a much higher honor.

Her six years of minimal duties has yet to land her a RFO. Seems a stretch to think she will get a higher honor. I will be happy to see her get knighted, but she should have a few years of actual service. Now that she is said to be taking in more duties in the fall, perhaps in a year or two.

Yes, I forgot Sophie the order of St. John, but she had been a full time Royal fir three years, having given up or in 2002.

Of the full time consort of the Prince of Wales had to wait as long as she did, I really don't see how anyone can think Kate is being snubbed.

 

[PetticoatLane]

I could see the Queen making exceptions to her typical process now that she is so advanced in age. I can imagine that she wants to give Kate these honours personally before she dies and that could happen at any time. Giving her the RFO means that Kate will wear an image of HM on her shoulder for the next 60+ years. I know Charles could give them to her when he accedes but I'll bet HM wants to be the one to do it.

She clearly likes Kate - one need only see the fact that she has leant Kate her wedding bracelet from Prince Philip which was itself a change to her established practice of lending jewels. She had never given this to any other member of her family to wear, to the best of our knowledge. Kate has been given at least 3 tiaras from the royal vaults, the same as Camilla. She obviously also likes the Middleton family as they have been to Ascot and Sandringham as her guests.

 

[Spheno]

Actually past discussion was about RFO not knighting. Knighting is a much higher honor.

The Royal Victorian Order is a dynastic order of knighthood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order

 

[AdmirerUS]

So, I am sitting here and thinking of all the reasons that are possible that we have not yet seen the RFO on Catherine.

On the she has it and is not wearing it side of things:
-The Ivory issue. In this scenario, either the queen understands (which I think she would) and agrees that it is politic for Catherine to appreciate the gesture, but to avoid the brou-ha-ha
-It's a piece previously owned by another royal, returned to the Queen and the Queen has asked for sentimental reasons the Kate not wear the piece. This makes more sense if (see below) Charles has decided he will not have a RFO and so the Queen let that influence production of new orders.
On the she does not have it side of things:
-The ivory issue impelled Catherine and/or/William/Charles/Harry to proactively discuss the issue with the Queen and she agreed - no order for Catherine.
-She has run out of the original RFO and some combination of the original artist was gone/the new artist failed, she decided early in her reign to only have as many orders as she has given out (they are not like sweets, after all). This also works for a RFO produced on porcelain or bone that did not meet family standards. In this case, Catherine understands why she does not have the order.
-She has been down a very rough daughter in law road and in hindsight learned that caution is a good thing.
-She determined long ago that only her son's wives would be eligible - not the next generation - RFOs are not sweets, after all. For all we know she may have hated hanging all those predecessors on her evening gowns.
-Charles has decided he will not have a RFO and so in whatever combination of ivory/production issues she has decided Sophie's was the last order. BTW, I can make a case for the end of the RFO in the UK. The meaning of an order specifically for female family diminishes in a modern monarchy and with modern rules of succession. At the very least, I think the RFO changes in intent and distribution moving forward.

I could come up with more - but my point is that in the grand history of the monarchy, the RFO is relatively modern and used more and less aggressively by different monarchs. And entirely at their discretion. JMO.

 

[Skippyboo]

So, I am sitting here and thinking of all the reasons that are possible that we have not yet seen the RFO on Catherine.



On the she has it and is not wearing it side of things:

-The Ivory issue. In this scenario, either the queen understands (which I think she would) and agrees that it is politic for Catherine to appreciate the gesture, but to avoid the brou-ha-ha

-It's a piece previously owned by another royal, returned to the Queen and the Queen has asked for sentimental reasons the Kate not wear the piece. This makes more sense if (see below) Charles has decided he will not have a RFO and so the Queen let that influence production of new orders.

On the she does not have it side of things:

-The ivory issue impelled Catherine and/or/William/Charles/Harry to proactively discuss the issue with the Queen and she agreed - no order for Catherine.

-She has run out of the original RFO and some combination of the original artist was gone/the new artist failed, she decided early in her reign to only have as many orders as she has given out (they are not like sweets, after all). This also works for a RFO produced on porcelain or bone that did not meet family standards. In this case, Catherine understands why she does not have the order.

-She has been down a very rough daughter in law road and in hindsight learned that caution is a good thing.

-She determined long ago that only her son's wives would be eligible - not the next generation - RFOs are not sweets, after all. For all we know she may have hated hanging all those predecessors on her evening gowns.

-Charles has decided he will not have a RFO and so in whatever combination of ivory/production issues she has decided Sophie's was the last order. BTW, I can make a case for the end of the RFO in the UK. The meaning of an order specifically for female family diminishes in a modern monarchy and with modern rules of succession. At the very least, I think the RFO changes in intent and distribution moving forward.



I could come up with more - but my point is that in the grand history of the monarchy, the RFO is relatively modern and used more and less aggressively by different monarchs. And entirely at their discretion. JMO.

Sophie wasn't the last person to receive a RFO. Camilla was.

There are left over RFOs because the number of people that have them now is less than the back in the late 70s early 80 which the number of ladies with RFOs hit its highest number.

The Queen wears the orders of her father and grandfather so she probably doesn't resent having to wear them.

 

[sophie25]

I don't get this ivory excuse.One presumes that Charlie's RFO will be made of something different so they could make Kate one made of whatever that will be just now if it really is the issue.

 

[Dman]

I don't get this ivory excuse.One presumes that Charlie's RFO will be made of something different so they could make Kate one made of whatever that will be just now if it really is the issue.

The issue over ivory is just speculation, because of William's stand against the use of ivory. I think it's the most credible of speculations. Any other reasons don't seem to make much sense, given she's a senior royal for nearly six years and attending the events where the family order is worn.

I do think Charles will have a family order. He may change the portrait base to porcelain instead of ivory, or he may not change it at all. We just don't know yet.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The ivory discussion makes little sense. Would Catherine ban all pianos in Buckingham Palace with ivory keys? And the ivory billiard balls? Furniture with ivory inlay? Fans with ivory elements? Ivory haircombs? The Scottish bagpipers with ivory pieces? The ivory tusks used as ornaments in some rooms? Ivory buttons, bijoux, objects d'art? The ivory used for the RFO will never originate from new ivory since the absolute ban on ivory trade, but what is there, that is there.

 

[duke of poliganc]

she's a senior royal for nearly six years and attending the events where the family order is worn.

again !! we are going in an infinite loop .

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Right, but she can still appoint Catherine to a knighthood this year.



Sophie was appointed to the Venerable Order of Saint John in 2005. Catherine can get a knighthood this year. Especially after her years of service and now that she's attending major State events wear the orders are worn.

I think the Order of St John is not a regular Order like the Bath, the St Michael & St George, the British Empire, the Royal Victorian Order and -of course- the Thistle and the Garter.

Together with the German Johanniterorden in Deutschland, the Swedish Johanniterorden i Sverige, and the Dutch Johanniter Orde in Nederland, the British Order forms the Alliance of the Orders of St. John of Jerusalem. So it is not a British knighthood in the usual meaning, let me say.

 

[Countessmeout]

The Royal Victorian Order is a dynastic order of knighthood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order

Not sure where I said it wasn't

RFO is royal family order. The Royal Victorian order is a completely different award.

 

[Countessmeout]

I think the Order of St John is not a regular Order like the Bath, the St Michael & St George, the British Empire, the Royal Victorian Order and -of course- the Thistle and the Garter.

Together with the German Johanniterorden in Deutschland, the Swedish Johanniterorden i Sverige, and the Dutch Johanniter Orde in Nederland, the British Order forms the Alliance of the Orders of St. John of Jerusalem. So it is not a British knighthood in the usual meaning, let me say.

It's definitely not a common one to be granted. Only five members have it. Well and the sovereign automatically.

Prince Richard is the grand prior of the order. He is often pictured in his robes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Richard,_Duke_of_Gloucester

Anne is the dame cross of the order which is the next level down.

and then Prince Michael, Sophie and the duchess of Gloucester are grade II, a level below Anne.

 

[Dman]

The ivory discussion makes little sense. Would Catherine ban all pianos in Buckingham Palace with ivory keys? And the ivory billiard balls? Furniture with ivory inlay? Fans with ivory elements? Ivory haircombs? The Scottish bagpipers with ivory pieces? The ivory tusks used as ornaments in some rooms? Ivory buttons, bijoux, objects d'art? The ivory used for the RFO will never originate from new ivory since the absolute ban on ivory trade, but what is there, that is there.

There's been reports that William wanted to get rid of all ivory out of the palaces. He didn't get his way on that.

The family order isn't a knighthood, but a personal family order.

 

[wyevale]

There are 'Politically Correct' alternatives to Ivory, now in use amongst miniaturists. One is Vellum, very long lasting [and widely used for books in the Middle ages]. and the other is Mammoth Ivory. Large quantities of this are dug up each year [in America and Russia], and being long extinct its use cannot raise the concerns that Elephant Ivory does.

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

Just wondering but does anyone else think that maybe it is in the Queen's will, that any of her close female relatives who have not received the order would receive at the time of her passing. I just don't think she would leave the only princesses of the blood royal in their generation, Louise, Beatrice and Eugenie, without one even if their use would be limited to potentially 3-4 times.

 

[Molly2101]

Just wondering but does anyone else think that maybe it is in the Queen's will, that any of her close female relatives who have not received the order would receive at the time of her passing. I just don't think she would leave the only princesses of the blood royal in their generation, Louise, Beatrice and Eugenie, without one even if their use would be limited to potentially 3-4 times.

Beatrice and Eugenie potentially already have the RFO but they have just never been seen wearing it in public as they don't attend banquets. I am sure Louise will receive it too as it's something they will all wear to their uncle Charles' coronation surely like this image Princess Marina, Princess Mary, Queen Mother and Princess Margaret. (I don't want to be morbid or wish the Queen's demise, but I am really looking forward to seeing Catherine, Sophie, Anne etc. standing like this photo.)

They must have the Diamond Jubilee medal as Louise was seen wearing it during the birthday pageant in Windsor Castle when she came in on the Queen's pony. Louise

 

[JessRulz]

Posts about the Tuvalu Order of Merit have been moved to the http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ly-part-3-march-2017-a-42002.html#post1970418 thread.

 

[Sun Lion]

Here Dman.

I know you've posted about the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and this Order - and now it's getting mentioned in the media.

Skip down a bit in this list of short items - sixth item down.

(Let's see if William gets the patronage of the London Zoological Society.)

Queen prepares to say goodbye to Lord Snowdon | Daily Mail Online

 

[Countessmeout]

Here Dman.

I know you've posted about the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and this Order - and now it's getting mentioned in the media.

Skip down a bit in this list of short items - sixth item down.

(Let's see if William gets the patronage of the London Zoological Society.)

Queen prepares to say goodbye to Lord Snowdon | Daily Mail Online

Daily mail is doing as it always does, regurgitating old rumors.

I wouldn't be surprised if William got the patronage but also if he didn't. Ivory and poaching is a big cause for many royals. Charles and Camilla are heavily involved with her brother's elephant charity (not ivory but still conservation). Harry is just as involved with tusk as his brother. Heck he spent this summer volunteering in Africa with elephants and other animals.

Charles and Camilla have no issue with wearing old ivory. I honestly don't see this being the issue. I wish they would get the order or a statement made if nothing else but to end speculation.

 

[Nico]

Daily mail is doing as it always does, regurgitating old rumors.

And wrongly with that. Male members of the BRF don't receive the RFO .

 

[Dman]

I do think the use of ivory in the family order is why Catherine don't have it.

No, William won't get the order, because it's now only made for women.

What bothers me is that Catherine has gone this long without her family order, because no one has come up with the idea of making her order out of a different material. It's silly to leave her orderless when she's attending events where the order should be worn.

Usually there's no announcement on when the royal ladies receive the order, but I think the palace should at least say something on why Catherine don't have the order.

One thing I know for sure; this wouldn't be happening in the other royal families.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Other royal families give the orders out as pieces of candy.

The BRF have a different approach.

Why the Queen hasn't seen fit to give the order to Kate is something that only The Queen knows?

I doubt it has anything to do with ivory as it would be quite simple to make it from something else if that was what they wanted to do.

There has to be another reason - which is probably that The Queen doesn't feel Kate has earnt it.