The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022

[Rudolph]

I'm in the camp who thinks it's an ivory issue. No matter what, it will make for bad headlines.

The other thing is, there is no pattern to who gets what orders and when.

Only the Queen knows the reasons why Sophie has the order of St John and Camilla doesn't and the same goes for everyone else.

From the Duke of Edinburgh on down to Prince Michael of Kent. Philip has an order that Charles doesn't have and Charles has an order Philip doesn't have. William was made a knight of the Thistle but his uncles didn't receive it etc.

You'll give yourself a headache trying to find any sort of hidden meaning in any of it.

 

[wartenberg7]

I just dont see why she should receive RFO when she is not even full time working royal? If she is not fully committed to royal duties, why should she be awarded - just because she gave birth to the heir and spare?

In my opinion both Sofie and Camilla had to "earn it" - both did much more royal duties in their first years of marriage than Catherine - so Catherine should too.

I think Catherine will have her RFO when is will be full time working royal (most likely) or when she starts doing more engagements.

I don´t see how or by what actions Camilla or Sophie did more to deserve the RFO than Catherine! How do you define "more"? The one who performs 102 engagements deserves one, the one who did only 100 doesn´t ? The Dss o Cambridge for instance had 2 pregnancies in a relatively short time gap. Still she did several successful well received overseas tours. I don´t know how you measure the benefit of the work of C and S to the country in comparision to Catherine´s...?!

 

[wartenberg7]

I'm in the camp who thinks it's an ivory issue. No matter what, it will make for bad headlines.

So be it, so what?! Bad headlines they get anyway and are a part of today´s realities every royal family (at least european ones) has to deal with.

 

[Skippyboo]

William and Harry aren't full time royals and Kate's engagement numbers are similar in the non pregnancy years. They have 3 Knighthoods between the 2 brothers.


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[Rudolph]

So be it, so what?! Bad headlines they get anyway and are a part of today´s realities every royal family (at least european ones) has to deal with.

As others have pointed out, it's one of William's most high profile activities as a royal. He has spoken out many times about ivory. I just think it would be giving the tabloids a freebie to wear it.

 

[Marty91charmed]

I think this discussion has only been running in circles. As the reasons for RFO are undisclosed to the public, it is pointless to claim over and over again that Kate hasn't had the order yet because of the ivory. The royal watchers don't even know if maybe she has already received.

I have already stated that, IMO, ivory is not the real motive, but my opinion is just that, an opinion as any others, since only her majesty is the one bestowing the order. I think it's useless to talk about this again. When/If Kate will appear with the order pin it up, then everybody will be talking about how wonderful is it that she has finally worn it and the whole matter will be forgotton.

 

[mademoisellekate]

I don´t see how or by what actions Camilla or Sophie did more to deserve the RFO than Catherine! How do you define "more"? The one who performs 102 engagements deserves one, the one who did only 100 doesn´t ? The Dss o Cambridge for instance had 2 pregnancies in a relatively short time gap. Still she did several successful well received overseas tours. I don´t know how you measure the benefit of the work of C and S to the country in comparision to Catherine´s...?!

Camilla and Sophie are both full time working royals, so they do more (about 200 per year) royal duties for the Firm.

Catherine is not full time royal so she does significantly less work for the Firm. When her kids will be older she may become full time royal and then receive her RFO.

All of them have great overseas tours. Catherine's ones just got more publicity.

 

[Skippyboo]

I don't think people are claiming she wasn't given the order because of the ivory. It's more not wearing the order because of the ivory. Since the order is not announced as given and the only way to know if she has it if it's worn, we aren't going to know. She could not have it or have it and chooses to not wear it.


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[wartenberg7]

Camilla and Sophie are both full time working royals, so they do more (about 200 per year) royal duties for the Firm.

Catherine is not full time royal so she does significantly less work for the Firm. When her kids will be older she may become full time royal and then receive her RFO.

All of them have great overseas tours. Catherine's ones just got more publicity.

I know all that and don´t "scream" at me by bolding your lines!!!
Still I don´t know how you measure up royal engagements. Doing more only by number is no argument in my opinion.
Publicity is one, if not THE, important factor to promote Britain´s and the Commonwealth´s industry, its way of living and values!
If you don´t get any attention, well....

 

[Rudolph]

I don't think people are claiming she wasn't given the order because of the ivory. It's more not wearing the order because of the ivory. Since the order is not announced as given and the only way to know if she has it if it's worn, we aren't going to know. She could not have it or have it and chooses to not wear it.


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That's what I was trying to say in my own convoluted way

 

[mademoisellekate]

I know all that and don´t "scream" at me by bolding your lines!!!
Still I don´t know how you measure up royal engagements. Doing more only by number is no argument in my opinion.

If I would scream at you, I would use capital letters.

I think I have made my case clear so there is no need for me to repeat myself.

IMO the numbers of engagement performed by royal is objective way how you measure his/her contribution to the firm - not likeability or whatever of royal. Just because trash magazines write about you doesnt mean you deserve RFO.

 

[Dman]

Guys, please let's not get into a frenzy about this.

I don't think getting the Royal family order is due down the amount of engagements one has done. Sophie wasn't doing that much engagements when she got the DJStJ order. Also, Camilla has just started her Royal career when she got it. The same can be said about Diana and others.

 

[HRHHermione]

Yes it does! Wearing an used one means no "new" ivory had to be used. It is there anyway and putting them in store wouldn´t help, makes no sense.

The King of the Netherlands still uses the hermine coat at his investiture although nobody would kill a mink these days to create a royal mantle.

Yes but the King of the Netherlands hasn't made the fur trade one of his most high profile issues, nor has he stated that he thinks antique furs ought to be destroyed/stored away and not used.

William however? Has stated that about ivory.


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[Dman]

I think if ivory is the issue, a new setting can be created. I'm sure Spinks or G. Collins & Sons would be happy to do it. Just leaving her bare of a family order over the issue would be beyond silly, IMO.

 

[HRHHermione]

I think if ivory is the issue, a new setting can be created. I'm sure Spinks or G. Collins & Sons would be happy to do it.

Of course they can. But again, that then creates stories about the ivory the other women wear and the opportunity to question what the royal family intend to do with the ivory work they own, given William (and Charles) and their conservation work and calls to end the demand for illegal ivory by making sure it isn't seen as valuable- not using it or displaying it.


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[Dman]

Of course they can. But again, that then creates stories about the ivory the other women wear and the opportunity to question what the royal family intend to do with the ivory work they own, given William (and Charles) and their conservation work and calls to end the demand for illegal ivory by making sure it isn't seen as valuable- not using it or displaying it.


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Charles also joins William on the ivory trade, but Camilla still wear her family order that's made with ivory. I still say if ivory presents a problem, why not have all the Royal ladies orders reset without ivory?

I just think it's not fair to leave Catherine bare of the family order over the use of ivory, when there's a simple and obvious solution to the problem. If that's the actual problem.

 

[tommy100]

So lets all agree to disagree and wait to see what happens. Maybe Catherine hasn't been seen with RFO just so she and the Queen can sit back and read the hilarious comments in this discussion ;-)

 

[Curryong]

The facts is that the Queen has only given the Royal Family Order swiftly (within the first year or two of married life) to Charles's wives, and that is because he is the Prince of Wales and the heir to the throne.

Yes, the ivory might be an issue as to why Kate hasn't been given the RFO as far as is known, but other reasons why she hasn't received it so far could be just as valid. First, that she has not been a full time Royal so far, (and Sophie was at the time she received it) and also William is second in line and not the direct heir.

Instead of leaping at the suggestion that the Ivory surrounding the Order is the problem, how about everyone waiting till the end of the year and seeing whether she will wear it at any appropriate occasion before then?

 

[Countessmeout]

If the Princes of the House of Nassau have the of the Golden Lion of nasau why does the sons of Prince Margreit not have it?

The order of the lion of Nassau is unique in that it has two distinct branches, in Lux and the Netherlands. The head of each branch, Henri and WA, are grand masters. They can appoint honorary order members, with the approval of both masters but it isn't done often. Mandela received it.

In the case of non-honorary, it is awarded to the sons, and since 1984 daughters of the grand masters receive the order at 18. Alexandra of Luxembourg is the first daughter to receive it. Margreit's sons were not the sons of a Grand master, so were not eligible to receive the order unless an honorary one. The same goes for Bea's grandchildren. the triple A's will get it at 18, their cousins will not.

 

[Dman]

The facts is that the Queen has only given the Royal Family Order swiftly (within the first year or two of married life) to Charles's wives, and that is because he is the Prince of Wales and the heir to the throne.

Yes, the ivory might be an issue as to why Kate hasn't been given the RFO as far as is known, but other reasons why she hasn't received it so far could be just as valid. First, that she has not been a full time Royal so far, (and Sophie was at the time she received it) and also William is second in line and not the direct heir.

Instead of leaping at the suggestion that the Ivory surrounding the Order is the problem, how about everyone waiting till the end of the year and seeing whether she will wear it at any appropriate occasion before then?

Although William is second in line to the throne, that didn't stop The Queen from giving William two knighthoods. Also, the second in line and his wife now attends State events where the orders are required. All of this tells me that Catherine should at be given the RFO.

I agree that we should just wait and see. There are State events coming up in the fall and winter where the order will be worn.

I just think the British royals shouldn't be so hard on giving these orders. I don't think this was the case back in George V and past royals days.

 

[mademoisellekate]

Although William is second in line to the throne, that didn't stop The Queen from giving William two knighthoods. Also, the second in line and his wife now attends State events where the orders are required. All of this tells me that Catherine should at be given the RFO.

I agree that we should just wait and see. There are State events coming up in the fall and winter where the order will be worn.

I just think the British royals shouldn't be so hard on giving these orders. I don't think this was the case back in George V and past royals days.

The way I see it there are two problems:
a) The issue with ivory
b) Catherine and William are not full time royals. I cant think of any other part-time royals that were given the RFO

We just have to wait and see.

 

[tommy100]

The Queen has her own reasons for doing things. Remember that Charles was appointed to the Garter in 1958, Anne in 1994 but Andrew and Edward were appointed 12 years later in 2006. In fact the Duke of Kent was appointed to the Garter in 1985 (9 years before Anne) and the Duke of Gloucester in 1996 (10 years before Andrew and Edward), and Princess Alexandra was appointed 3 years before the Queen's own sons.
Clearly the Queen must have had a reason for waiting so long between each person (I know the Garter is different from the RFO, not least because membership of the Garter is limited in number but still it shows that the Queen obviously does have a plan or reasons in mind when doing these things)
People can speculate all they like but these orders are all in the Queen's gift so basically she can do what she likes.

 

[Dman]

The Queen has her own reasons for doing things. Remember that Charles was appointed to the Garter in 1958, Anne in 1994 but Andrew and Edward were appointed 12 years later in 2006. In fact the Duke of Kent was appointed to the Garter in 1985 (9 years before Anne) and the Duke of Gloucester in 1996 (10 years before Andrew and Edward), and Princess Alexandra was appointed 3 years before the Queen's own sons.
Clearly the Queen must have had a reason for waiting so long between each person (I know the Garter is different from the RFO, not least because membership of the Garter is limited in number but still it shows that the Queen obviously does have a plan or reasons in mind when doing these things)
People can speculate all they like but these orders are all in the Queen's gift so basically she can do what she likes.

I think she really don't think about giving family members family orders and knighthoods until someone (perhaps members of her court or family) brings it up. Probably not specific reasons, but perhaps it's not on her mind.

 

[tommy100]

That may well be true, I can't imagine the Queen saying 'no' if one of her Private Secretaries said 'Ma'am hadn't we better give the Duchess the RFO'. Perhaps Kate needs to start taking the Private Secretaries out for lunch lol

 

[Queen Claude]

Charles also joins William on the ivory trade, but Camilla still wear her family order that's made with ivory. I still say if ivory presents a problem, why not have all the Royal ladies orders reset without ivory?

I just think it's not fair to leave Catherine bare of the family order over the use of ivory, when there's a simple and obvious solution to the problem. If that's the actual problem.

William has taken a much more strident position than Charles in that he has called for existing products made of ivory be destroyed. Perhaps ivory is not the only factor but I think William's stance on ivory is a factor in why Kate has not been given the RFO.

My speculation is that I don't think that the Queen is going to jump through a bunch of hoops to give Kate the RFO but also accommodate William's stance on ivory, e.g., give Kate the order and then allow Kate's order to be a different material. Even though she can be accommodating in some areas, I suspect the Queen is not going to yield in this area and both she and William are standing on their respective principles. And as someone else pointed out, Kate ostensibly being the first and only female royal, other than the Queen herself, who has worn the Queen's engagement bracelet is a sign that the Queen holds her in some regard.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

Well her father isn't a member of the royal family and the order of the elephant in Denmark, for example, actually isn't restricted to royals and is given to other people who have served the country with distinction. I think the order of the seraphim isn't exclusively for royals either.

We are drifting from the original topic, but the Order of the Dannebrog is given to the in-laws of the Danish Monarch.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Although William is second in line to the throne, that didn't stop The Queen from giving William two knighthoods. Also, the second in line and his wife now attends State events where the orders are required. All of this tells me that Catherine should at be given the RFO.

Princess Michael of Kent has been attending State Events for decades and she doesn't have the RFO. That arguement doesn't hold up as a result.

Simply the Queen hasn't decided to give Kate the RFO at this point in time for her own reasons and we can speculate all we like but as it is a personal award from the monarch to the person obviously the Queen doesn't feel that Kate has done enough yet. You can argue that she has but we aren't privy to the internal workings of the BRF and the Queen will have her reasons.

 

[Dman]

Princess Michael of Kent has been attending State Events for decades and she doesn't have the RFO. That arguement doesn't hold up as a result.

Simply the Queen hasn't decided to give Kate the RFO at this point in time for her own reasons and we can speculate all we like but as it is a personal award from the monarch to the person obviously the Queen doesn't feel that Kate has done enough yet. You can argue that she has but we aren't privy to the internal workings of the BRF and the Queen will have her reasons.

Princess Michael isn't a working senior Royal. She attends as the extended part of the family. The argument does hold up.

It's not odd to question the fact that after five years of faithful service on The Queen's behalf, Catherine don't have her royal family order yet. She should have by this year.

 

[Molly2101]

I noticed yesterday that Lady Louise was wearing a Diamond Jubilee medal last night when she was in the parade.

Lady Louise

Nice to see that all the family, even the little ones, got the medal.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Princess Michael isn't a working senior Royal. She attends as the extended part of the family. The argument does hold up.

It's not odd to question the fact that after five years of faithful service on The Queen's behalf, Catherine don't have her royal family order yet. She should have by this year.

What is "faithful service"? She is just the lady whom happens to be married to the Queen's grandson. I don't think that is an element to grant the RFO: Diana and Camilla have received quite soon. Or were the 'faithful' services given by these two more than what Catherine gave?