The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022


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:previous: And you know that all these people, foreign royalty, diplomats, etc. having been "dismissed" by QEII, threw their toys out of their cots and refused to recognise her daughter's-in-law, how?

1 + 1 = 2

The foreign female spouse gets no Order? Then the female spouse of "the other side" gets no Order either. That is what is called reciprocity. During Diana's period as HRH The Princess of Wales, the following European monarchs made a State Visit to the United Kingdom:

- HM The Queen of the Netherlands 1982:
Charles was made Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau + Diana was made Lady Grand Cross in the Crown Order (House of Orange Order)

- HE The President of France, co-Sovereign of Andorrra 1984:
Charles was given the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. There was no decoration for Madame Mitterrand. (See: http://img.20mn.fr/5f4DBbBAS5O8X7AP...mbassade-france-a-londres-25-octobre-1984.jpg ). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Spain 1986:
Charles was made a Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Carlos III. There was no decoration for Queen Sofía (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Norway 1994:
Charles already held the Grand Cross with Collar of the Royal Norwegian Order of St. Olav. There was no decoration for Queen Sonja (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

That the previous Princess of Wales received an Order from Queen Beatrix was just because of her generosity, her goodwill and her lack of pettiness. Proof: the Queen ordered her stablemaster to look out for a top-breed stud and during the State Visit this expensive horse was handed over to Queen Elizabeth. This was done with decorum: riding servants from the Dutch Royal Mews, in ceremonial tenue, were flown over to give it all cachet. See picture. This illustrated the high esteem Queen Beatrix held (holds) for Queen Elizabeth II. Other State Visits are usually larded with some vases, a picture or a sculpture, not with such an expensive gift. The recpiprocity here was a signed state portrait of the British royal couple in a golden frame... Queen Beatrix knew this but apparently she is not the "one for you, one for me"-type of person.


:flowers:


Another proof, my president made a State Visit to the Netherlands. Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus received the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. Princess Juliana and Prince Bernhard already held this Order. The President gave Princess Margriet and even Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven the French Order of Merit. The Queen acted reciprocally: the President was given the highest Dutch honour, Madame Danielle Mitterrand received the same Order as Diana got. See picture: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/...e=67&uid=1c9b8055-a62b-41d4-aa91-45223e94be62
 
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Interesting. Did the Order of the Legion d'Honneur have smaller red sashes for the Ladies nowadays ??
 
Interesting. Did the Order of the Legion d'Honneur have smaller red sashes for the Ladies nowadays ??

This picture shows Queen Sofía (Grand Cordon Légion d'Honneur) and Doña Letizia (Grand Cordon Ordre national du Mérite) with the same width as their spouses. Madame Sarkozy wears a Grand Cordon (style féminin) in the Muy Distinguida Orden de Carlos III. President Sarkozy wears the collar of that Order.
 
....(snip).....
- HM The King of Norway 1994:
Charles already held the Grand Cross with Collar of the Royal Norwegian Order of St. Olav. There was no decoration for Queen Sonja (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

....(snip).....
:flowers:

okay, i snipped a lot out of your post, people can read it above, but just gotta ask:
you give a whole bunch of examples to show why Diana didn't get an order, but all the examples show the visit of a head of state and their spouse; Diana was never the spouse of a head of state so as little as i know about the custom of order-giving: i don't think you can compare the spouse of an heir to the spouse of a king

(by the way: your use of the flower-icon especially in posts concerning the British RF, has given it a whole new meaning...)
 
okay, i snipped a lot out of your post, people can read it above, but just gotta ask:
you give a whole bunch of examples to show why Diana didn't get an order, but all the examples show the visit of a head of state and their spouse; Diana was never the spouse of a head of state so as little as i know about the custom of order-giving: i don't think you can compare the spouse of an heir to the spouse of a king

(by the way: your use of the flower-icon especially in posts concerning the British RF, has given it a whole new meaning...)

In the other thread about Diana's Orders I have explained it more. It is really the reciprocity. When Queen Elizabeth gives the spouse of the Mexican President a British Order, then the Mexican President will do the same to the Duke of Edinburgh (the highest) and to the Prince and Princess of Wales (the second highest).

For an example: King Juan Carlos gave Spanish Orders to the Prince of Orange, his fiancée, to Princess Margriet and to Professor Van Vollenhoven. When Queen Beatrix was in Spain, she gave Dutch Orders to the Prince of Asturias, the Infanta Doña Elena and the Infanta Doña Cristina.

Queen Elizabeth did not even confer an Order on Queen Sofía (!), while she is from the Royal House of Greece and Denmark (!), like her spouse Prince Philip... So Don Juan Carlos conferred the Order of Carlos III on the Prince of Wales and.... the Princess of Wales was left with nothing. In all other royal State Visits Don Juan Carlos has always given Orders to spouses of the King and/or the Heir, and usually also to other royal princes and princesses.
 
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It is really the reciprocity. When Queen Elizabeth gives the spouse of the Mexican President a British Order, then the Mexican President will do the same to the Duke of Edinburgh (the highest) and to the Prince and Princess of Wales (the second highest).


Queen Elizabeth did not even confer an Order on Queen Sofía (!), while she is from the Royal House of Greece and Denmark (!), like her spouse Prince Philip... There lies the answer, it is all about reciprocity.

But Prince Philip has a lot of foreign order like the Order of the Serpahim (Sweden) the Order of St. Olav (Norway) for example but Queen
Sonja and Queen Silvia do have not britis order.
 
Queen Elizabeth did not even confer an Order on Queen Sofía (!)

"Off with her head" then, Duc et Pair... You know you want to !
 
The BRF is the only European family I can think of that doesn't just hand out orders to everyone and their husband.

Some continental royal families give orders upon marriage or even at birth but in Britain one needs to put in years of service to even be considered worthy.

Its the British way.
 
The BRF is the only European family I can think of that doesn't just hand out orders to everyone and their husband.

Some continental royal families give orders upon marriage or even at birth but in Britain one needs to put in years of service to even be considered worthy.

Its the British way.

Yeah, but it shouldn't take 10, 15 to 20 years to be appreciated and recognized for your service. I'm glad Camilla at least got the RVO after seven years of service. At least the continental royals get something sooner and don't have to go to royal events and State Visits looking so bare.
 
Does anyone know what is the most RFOs that any royal woman has been honored? I believe QEQM had 3; her father in law, her husband and her daughter. How many did Queen Mary have? she could have 4 - but I assume QEII did not give them out til after her coronation - so Granny many only have 3.

Kate could potentially receive 4. just curious. Wikipedia sites the tradition as beginning with George IV
 
Does anyone know what is the most RFOs that any royal woman has been honored? I believe QEQM had 3; her father in law, her husband and her daughter. How many did Queen Mary have? she could have 4 - but I assume QEII did not give them out til after her coronation - so Granny many only have 3.

Kate could potentially receive 4. just curious. Wikipedia sites the tradition as beginning with George IV

I think it was Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone. She lived during the reigns of Queen Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VI, George VI and Queen Elizabeth II.
 
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The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

But Prince Philip has a lot of foreign order like the Order of the Serpahim (Sweden) the Order of St. Olav (Norway) for example but Queen
Sonja and Queen Silvia do have not britis order.


Prince Philip most likely got the Order of the Seraphim by his uncle King Gustav VI Adolf either when Queen Elisabeth got hers in 1953 or during the state visit to Sweden in 1956. Remember that Philip has been around a lot longer than both Sonja and Silvia.
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Camilla need to be made Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem (GCStJ).

Camilla has worked for healthcare related charities for over 20 years and the Queen has not yet made Camilla Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of St John of Jerusalem. (DJStJ)

Sophie was made DJStJ after only a few years in the family and with very few years working for healthcare charities.

Camilla with over 20 years working for healthcare charities needs to be made a Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem (GCStJ).
 
The BRF is the only European family I can think of that doesn't just hand out orders to everyone and their husband.

Some continental royal families give orders upon marriage or even at birth but in Britain one needs to put in years of service to even be considered worthy.

Its the British way.

They do... to the male spouses.
They don't... to the female spouses.



Proof:
- Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands (spouse of Queen Wilhelmina) was made a Honorary Knight-Grand Commander with star and chain in the Order of the Bath
- Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands (spouse of Queen Juliana) even got FOUR British Orders: Knight Grand Cross in the Royal Victorian Order, Knight Grand Cross in the Order of the Bath, Knight Grand Cross in the Order of the British Empire, Bailiff/Knight Grand Cross in the Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem
- Prince Henrik of Denmark (spouse of Queen Margrethe) got THREE British Orders: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath, Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George, Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order
- Prince Claus of the Netherlands (spouse of Queen Beatrix), who largely remained out of public life due to longtime illness after 1982, was made a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order

- Queen Sonja of Norway: no British Order
- Queen Silvia of Sweden: no British Order
- Queen Fabiola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Queen Paola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte: no British Order
- Grand Duchess María Teresa: no British Order
- Queen Sofía of Spain: no British Order

:flowers:
 
1 + 1 = 2

The foreign female spouse gets no Order? Then the female spouse of "the other side" gets no Order either. That is what is called reciprocity. During Diana's period as HRH The Princess of Wales, the following European monarchs made a State Visit to the United Kingdom:

- HM The Queen of the Netherlands 1982:
Charles was made Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau + Diana was made Lady Grand Cross in the Crown Order (House of Orange Order)

- HE The President of France, co-Sovereign of Andorrra 1984:
Charles was given the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. There was no decoration for Madame Mitterrand. (See: http://img.20mn.fr/5f4DBbBAS5O8X7AP...mbassade-france-a-londres-25-octobre-1984.jpg ). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Spain 1986:
Charles was made a Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Carlos III. There was no decoration for Queen Sofía (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Norway 1994:
Charles already held the Grand Cross with Collar of the Royal Norwegian Order of St. Olav. There was no decoration for Queen Sonja (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

That the previous Princess of Wales received an Order from Queen Beatrix was just because of her generosity, her goodwill and her lack of pettiness. Proof: the Queen ordered her stablemaster to look out for a top-breed stud and during the State Visit this expensive horse was handed over to Queen Elizabeth. This was done with decorum: riding servants from the Dutch Royal Mews, in ceremonial tenue, were flown over to give it all cachet. See picture. This illustrated the high esteem Queen Beatrix held (holds) for Queen Elizabeth II. Other State Visits are usually larded with some vases, a picture or a sculpture, not with such an expensive gift. The recpiprocity here was a signed state portrait of the British royal couple in a golden frame... Queen Beatrix knew this but apparently she is not the "one for you, one for me"-type of person.


:flowers:


Another proof, my president made a State Visit to the Netherlands. Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus received the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. Princess Juliana and Prince Bernhard already held this Order. The President gave Princess Margriet and even Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven the French Order of Merit. The Queen acted reciprocally: the President was given the highest Dutch honour, Madame Danielle Mitterrand received the same Order as Diana got. See picture: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/...e=67&uid=1c9b8055-a62b-41d4-aa91-45223e94be62

I'm a bit confused by your reasoning in that it's not Elizabeth who makes the choice of what foreign orders that her children/in-laws receive. We've seen countless state visits in other countries where 2 or 3 or more people will receive an order, even though it's just a President and his wife visiting.

I can't begin to imagine why, so long as she participated in the state visits, Diana only received two foreign orders, but I don't agree with your reasoning. It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it really holds water.
 
I'm a bit confused by your reasoning in that it's not Elizabeth who makes the choice of what foreign orders that her children/in-laws receive. We've seen countless state visits in other countries where 2 or 3 or more people will receive an order, even though it's just a President and his wife visiting.

I can't begin to imagine why, so long as she participated in the state visits, Diana only received two foreign orders, but I don't agree with your reasoning. It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it really holds water.

Of course it holds water. It is just the reciprocity during State Visits. The British Queen grants decorations to male spouses and not to female spouses. The continental monarchs do not make such a difference between males and females but all acted reciprocially, so also not giving honours to female royals. Queen Beatrix ignored this and granted Diana an Order. Her mother Queen Juliana already ignored the British policy by granting the same Order to Princess Anne.

- Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands GCB
- Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands GCB, GCVO, GBE, GCStJ
- Prince Henrik of Denmark GCB, GCMG, GCVO
- Prince Claus of the Netherlands GCVO
- Queen Sonja of Norway: no British Order
- Queen Silvia of Sweden: no British Order
- Queen Fabiola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Queen Paola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte: no British Order
- Grand Duchess María Teresa: no British Order
- Queen Sofía of Spain: no British Order

:flowers:
 
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Princes Sirindhorn of Thailand is Dame Grand Cross of the Victoria Order, if i understand correctly...?

This order as i understand it, is given by the sovereign to recognize distinguished personal services to the sovereign, and not just rewarded as an exchange of baseballcards "if you give me this order, you will get that order from me"

It's the sovereign's prerogative to award orders as they deem fit; that might not be what you *think* she should do, but that's not really relevant...is it?
 
Princes Sirindhorn of Thailand is Dame Grand Cross of the Victoria Order, if i understand correctly...?

This order as i understand it, is given by the sovereign to recognize distinguished personal services to the sovereign, and not just rewarded as an exchange of baseballcards "if you give me this order, you will get that order from me"

It's the sovereign's prerogative to award orders as they deem fit; that might not be what you *think* she should do, but that's not really relevant...is it?

Can you tell me the "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Prince Bernhard, Prince Claus and Prince Henrik and the apparent lack of these "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Queen Sofía, Queen Silvia, Queen Sonja, etc?

:flowers:

On this level it has nothing to do with services. It is a token of honour. A country visits your country. You prove honour to your guests. The continental royals include the spouse of the visiting head of state, and when it is about royalty, also to the Heir and his/her spouse. The Brits do exactly the same except... female spouses are not "awarded".

Even republican heads of state do this. Richard Freiherr von Weiszäcker, President of Germany, insisted that the only 17 years old Prince of Orange would receive the Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse in the Verdienstorden der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Not that the 17 years old boy had done anything exceptional, but with this the President acknowledged the close connection betwee Orange and its Prince with Nassau (in Germany), the dynasty which has played such an important role on European scale. Just a public and formal token of appreciation, esteem and respect.
 
Just to point out, the Order of the Bath is bestowed on the advice of the government, its not a personal order from the Queen.

The Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle, the Order of Merit and the Royal Victorian Order are all within the personal gift of the Queen and she can give these as she sees fit, all other orders are given by the government in the name of the Queen.
 
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Can you tell me the "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Prince Bernhard, Prince Claus and Prince Henrik and the apparent lack of these "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Queen Sofía, Queen Silvia, Queen Sonja, etc?

:flowers:

On this level it has nothing to do with services. It is a token of honour. A country visits your country. You prove honour to your guests. The continental royals include the spouse of the visiting head of state, and when it is about royalty, also to the Heir and his/her spouse. The Brits do exactly the same except... female spouses are not "awarded".

QEII does not have to explain her motivations to me about handing out (or not handing out) personal orders.

You seem to think that because things are done one way by royals on the european continent, that by default the english Queen should do things the same way.
I think that is not the case..

If these forums have learnt me anything it's that you can't compare one monarchy to another, and that you can't assume that because one monarch handles things one way, that all monarchs should do so. Even neighbouring countries/monarchies can have very different traditions and ways. That doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other, it's just different, and that is fine.

You might for a second consider the possibility that if (for instance) the Royal Victoria Order is a personal order given as the English/British Sovereign seems fit; that that might actually be the case, no more and no less than that
 
QEII does not have to explain her motivations to me about handing out (or not handing out) personal orders.

You seem to think that because things are done one way by royals on the european continent, that by default the english Queen should do things the same way.
I think that is not the case..

If these forums have learnt me anything it's that you can't compare one monarchy to another, and that you can't assume that because one monarch handles things one way, that all monarchs should do so. Even neighbouring countries/monarchies can have very different traditions and ways. That doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other, it's just different, and that is fine.

You might for a second consider the possibility that if (for instance) the Royal Victoria Order is a personal order given as the English/British Sovereign seems fit; that that might actually be the case, no more and no less than that

Every monarchy does things their own way but the discussion also turned to the question why Diana only received one foreign royal Order in all her years as Princess of Wales. I have given a list of visiting royal heads of state during this period and gave factual information that the male consorts of the Netherlands and Denmark have all received British Orders, one of them even four (!) British Orders. No any female consort has received a British Order. These facts are controllable: check, check, check.

The same royal heads of state whom visited Britain however always have included the spouse of the head of state, no matter male or female. Also that I have shown with examples and pictures. Only when i Britain, this standard policy is interrupted. The answer why The Princess of Wales and future consort of the United Kingdom never got a foreign royal Order (except a Dutch one) lies in the policy of reciprocity and the difference the British make between male and female consorts. This is easily to check and is a longstanding policy.

When Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh visited the Netherlands in 1958, both Princess Beatrix and Princess Irene were part of the full program of the long State Visit with so many gala events and ceremonial proceedings. Princess Beatrix got the Royal Victorian Order, Princess Irene got nothing. Can you imagine that before the first gala banquet Orders are bestowed, the royals all together and Princess Irene is conveniently forgotten. Why? Because she was just the Number Two? When Queen Juliana made the same visit vice-versa, she simply included Princess Anne, who was part of the British entourage back then. The answer for Princess Diana's lack of foreign Orders (only one Dutch and one Egyptian -poisoned one, because from Mubarak) lies there.

:flowers:
 
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I think it was Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone. She lived during the reigns of Queen Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VI, George VI and Queen Elizabeth II.
I don't have my books in front of me, but didn't Princesses Marie Louise and Helena Victoria get most of them too? (HV wouldn't have gotten QEII's as she died in 1948.)
 
I don't have my books in front of me, but didn't Princesses Marie Louise and Helena Victoria get most of them too? (HV wouldn't have gotten QEII's as she died in 1948.)

From what I can see quickly, it seems that the only RFO either lady had was the Order of Victoria and Albert as can be seen below.
 

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Who ever has the most...wins???

The discussions about who had the most RFO's reminded me of a "conversation" I had some time ago with Edwin King who, as part of his blog, posts "Royals in Medals" - a most inetersting site.

It related to who held the most Knighthoods.

I was reading Edwin's post on the Duke of Cambridge (the elder (1819 - 1904)... a.k.a. Field Marshal HRH Prince George, Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Tipperary and Baron Culloden, Prince of Hanover and Duke of Brunswick and Lünenburg) who was a grandson of George III and maternal uncle to Queen Mary.

The Duke was a career Army man and was the last to hold the Cambridge dukedom before it was revived for Prince William.

Cambridge held no fewer than 10 Knighthoods !!

They were:

KG: Knight of the Garter
KT: Knight of the Thistle
KP: Knight of St Patrick
GCH: Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Guelphic Order
GCB: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath
GCSI: Knight Grand Commander of the Order of the Star of India
GCMG: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George
GCIE: Knight Grand Commander of the Order of the Indian Empire
GCVO: Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order
KJStJ: Knight of Justice of the Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

Can anyone guess who might have matched this honourific feat??
 

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Of course it holds water. It is just the reciprocity during State Visits. The British Queen grants decorations to male spouses and not to female spouses. The continental monarchs do not make such a difference between males and females but all acted reciprocially, so also not giving honours to female royals. Queen Beatrix ignored this and granted Diana an Order. Her mother Queen Juliana already ignored the British policy by granting the same Order to Princess Anne.

- Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands GCB
- Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands GCB, GCVO, GBE, GCStJ
- Prince Henrik of Denmark GCB, GCMG, GCVO
- Prince Claus of the Netherlands GCVO
- Queen Sonja of Norway: no British Order
- Queen Silvia of Sweden: no British Order
- Queen Fabiola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Queen Paola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte: no British Order
- Grand Duchess María Teresa: no British Order
- Queen Sofía of Spain: no British Order

:flowers:

No, it doesn't hold water.

There's nothing in British protocol that says if I give your X this, you have to give my X this and so if you don't give my X this, I'm not giving your X this. It's silly and it absolutely doesn't hold water.

We know the Queen gives out the RFO sparingly. If you want to know why Bernhard got the RFO, it's probably because of his actions during WWII. Maybe Liz feels a bit more for the male Prince Consorts? I don't know.

I can tell you straight up Fabiola didn't accept 99% of the Orders, so there's that one. I don't believe Albert & Liz ever had State Visits, so no order for Paola. There's only been one visit for Silvia, so it's possible had there been a second, she may have received it. No idea why JC didn't receive it. I don't believe MT has been apart of a State Visit as Grand Duchess, so that's a reason for her.

As for Sonja, I think that's the one where you can wonder why on earth she's not received it. In terms of State Visits, she should be fine, but I guess Liz just doesn't think she's done enough to deserve it. Why? Who knows.

Now, I don't have photos or info from these state visits to sit and pick at. I don't follow the British Royals and their gala events close enough, but from what I've seen, this is what I know

Jean & JC visited in 1972 and gave out 4 orders despite only one being given to them. Daisy & Henrik visited in 1974 and Charles got the Order of the Elephant, and I'm assuming that both Daisy & Henrik received the RFO during this visit. Carl Gustaf visited England in 1975 while unmarried. Despite this, both Charles & the Duke of Gloucester received Orders. Dutch visit in 1982 saw 3 orders given out.

So no, I don't think your argument holds water. The Queen does things in her own way and wouldn't it be nice if we could know the reasons for her decisions, but we don't.
 
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Royal Order Pins

I am not sure who could answer this question. Family Orders and KG are some very nice pins that are given to specific people. The Queen, Queen Mother and probable Princess Margaret have been see wearing the Orders from George V, VI and so on. Once Princess Margaret passed away, what happened to these pins from monarchs that are no longer alive to issue them to someone else, say PM daughter? The pins of the current queen could be given to someone else, but George VI pins really could not. Are they passed on to the descendants of the person that received the awards, and can be worn, or are they returned to the crown and kept, or destroyed and the jewels reused?
 
The badges and collars for the knighthoods such as the Garter are returned to the palace after the receiver dies. The family orders are cameos with the monarch on them. David and Sarah probably kept Margaret's orders but Sarah or Serena couldn't wear them since it wasn't given to them


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