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  #1241  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
William is basically the frontman for a public campaign to stop use of ivory. His wife who gets worldwide coverage can’t show up at a state dinner wearing ivory when William is telling the people of Asia and Africa not to use ivory for decoration or other purposes.

The Queen would fully understand this. So it quite possible Kate was given a RFO and doesn’t wear it with the Queen’s blessing. Let’s not forget Kate has been loaned some pretty personal jewelry from the Queen that no other family members have worn before like Philip’s bracelet given at the time of their engagement. If the Queen had some sort of suspicion or didn’t approve of Kate-no way is Kate wearing these jewels.

Yes this is what I think too.


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  #1242  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
William is basically the frontman for a public campaign to stop use of ivory. His wife who gets worldwide coverage can’t show up at a state dinner wearing ivory when William is telling the people of Asia and Africa not to use ivory for decoration or other purposes.

The Queen would fully understand this. So it quite possible Kate was given a RFO and doesn’t wear it with the Queen’s blessing. Let’s not forget Kate has been loaned some pretty personal jewelry from the Queen that no other family members have worn before like Philip’s bracelet given at the time of their engagement. If the Queen had some sort of suspicion or didn’t approve of Kate-no way is Kate wearing these jewels.
Yes, I think so,too.

I also think that trying to imply that HM sees something wrong in the Cambridge marriage is pretty shabby.
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  #1243  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:20 PM
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I’ve always said, if the use of ivory in the family order is a problem, a porcelain base could be used to make Catherine a new order.

Why leave her without a family order after all this time? If she just married William last summer, her not having the Order would be understandable.

Seven years on and no family order? C’mon now!
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  #1244  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
William is basically the frontman for a public campaign to stop use of ivory. His wife who gets worldwide coverage can’t show up at a state dinner wearing ivory when William is telling the people of Asia and Africa not to use ivory for decoration or other purposes.

The Queen would fully understand this. So it quite possible Kate was given a RFO and doesn’t wear it with the Queen’s blessing. Let’s not forget Kate has been loaned some pretty personal jewelry from the Queen that no other family members have worn before like Philip’s bracelet given at the time of their engagement. If the Queen had some sort of suspicion or didn’t approve of Kate-no way is Kate wearing these jewels.
Again, it would be seen as frankly rude toward the other royal ladies and the Queen herself wearing their very own orders "look i'm protecting the Elephants but you ladies are basicaly feeding the poachers". I just can't imagine that.
Plus it would so easy, as pointed out several times, to make a pocelain made order especially for Kate.
No Kate was not given the RFO yet, but as explained above, she's literally covered with the Queen's diamonds, a clear sign of trust if needed.
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  #1245  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:30 PM
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Well let's hope, for the sake of ending this debate, that The Queen's gift to Catherine this year is the Family Order :)
Personally, I think when worn they detract from the beauty of the dress worn, but there are considerations more important than fashion.
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  #1246  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:30 PM
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William and Catherine have no control over the Ivory already used by the palace but they do have a choice over whether to wear it.

Can you imagine Catherine sitting at the head table during the Chinese State visit with an ivory broach on her chest while William is lecturing the Chinese President over ivory use. It’s called bad optics. To me it’s every bit as plausible as anything else being floated about.
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  #1247  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:38 PM
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The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

The RFO is probably pretty expensive to make. Charles will be on the throne sooner than later. So the RFOs for Charles would need to be made. At the same time, new ivory free Elizabeth RFOs can be made for those who would need them. Alexandra is the only one that would still have George VI one.

Then everyone is ivory free RFO wise.
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  #1248  
Old 12-06-2017, 05:46 PM
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Mammoth Tusk 'Ivory' is increasingly being used by Miniaturists.. identical as a surface on which to Paint, and widely available [Lots of skeletons being dug up in China], but ideologically 'blameless' since Mammoths have been extinct for Millennia..
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  #1249  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:40 PM
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I don't believe that the state of the Cambridge marriage has anything to do with this. Nor do I think that ivory is the issue. It could be however that the Queen is leaving the issue of awarding the first RFOs to the younger generation, primarily her Wales grandsons wives, to Charles. It may be that she feels that will be a duty he will take pleasure in. It's an awful thing to say but perhaps the Queen is feeling her mortality. Of course if she lives for another five or six years she may well change her mind.
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  #1250  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
I am not a fan of royals receiving honours simply because they have become royals. I find the Scandinavian royal habits particularly ridiculous as they bestow orders even prior to weddings when surely there should be a period of 'work' done before receiving such an accolade. Some royal families though do wait a bit if time. Charlene Wittstock married her Prince the same year that Kate married William and received the senior Monaco order16 months after the wedding. It was still a bit soon IMO but in comparison to Princess Grace who got her's straight away at least she, kind of, earned it. The British RFO has no tradition of being 'earned' but if this is indeed the road the present Monarch wishes to go down (and there's no proof that it is) then after almost 7 years of marriage, numerous engagements and foreign tours Catherine should surely have it by now.
The Swedish "RFO" is not really an Order. The royal ladies receive these as a memento and can wear these to show attachment to the Sovereign. It is also called The King's Portrait, which in itself already says it is not an Order.

Then the Seraphims for the royals (even as Babies): the Order of the Seraphim is in the first place a dynastic Order. The King is head of the royal dynasty and of the dynastic Orders. The babies are born princes or princesses of the royal dynasty. Daniel, Sophie and Christopher are married into the dynasty. So these Orders must not been seen as a sort "Order of Merit".

In the Netherlands (Orange-Nassau) and in Luxembourg (Nassau) the Order in the Golden Lion of the House Nassau is partly a dynastical Order (in both countries) as well a State Order (in Luxembourg). The Statutes of the Order regulate that children of the Sovereign are a Knight (Dame) Grand Cross by birth. The difference with Sweden is that the actual decorations are given on the 18th birthday. Again: this is no "Order of Merit".

I think we can not consider the RFO as an "Order of Merit" (the Queen herself, her sister and her cousine Alexandra all received one as young girls). The Order of the Garter, when given to royals, must not be seen as an "Order of Merit" but as a visible token of the royal dynasty. We can not argue that William has done such unbelievable and extraordinary acts that he is the youngest Brit to be decorated with the highest of the highest. He only got these because he is who he is in the royal dynasty.
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  #1251  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:46 PM
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The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

There isn’t anything that stops Charles giving his own RFO to people that have the Queen’s. It isn’t a knighthood that cant be given again if you already have it.

There is actually an Order of Merit which is limited to 24 members of the UK & Commonwealth. It’s full of Nobel Prize winners and Philip and Charles. The royals actually count against the 24 unlike the Royal Garter knights.
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  #1252  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:56 PM
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No there isn't anything to stop Charles from awarding his RFOs to the younger generation after the Queen has done so . It may be though that she is leaving the giving of these to Charles in the first place.
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  #1253  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Then the Seraphims for the royals (even as Babies): the Order of the Seraphim is in the first place a dynastic Order. The King is head of the royal dynasty and of the dynastic Orders. The babies are born princes or princesses of the royal dynasty. Daniel, Sophie and Christopher are married into the dynasty. So these Orders must not been seen as a sort "Order of Merit".
Chris never received the Order of the Seraphim as he refused to become a member of the royal house and any titles; to leave him not completely hanging the king made his son-in-law Commander of the Royal Order of the Polar Star.

Quote:
I think we can not consider the RFO as an "Order of Merit" (the Queen herself, her sister and her cousine Alexandra all received one as young girls). The Order of the Garter, when given to royals, must not be seen as an "Order of Merit" but as a visible token of the royal dynasty. We can not argue that William has done such unbelievable and extraordinary acts that he is the youngest Brit to be decorated with the highest of the highest. He only got these because he is who he is in the royal dynasty.
Agreed that the RFO isn't really an order of merit. Most grand cross members of any order didn't receive it because of merit, but just because of the position they were in (born, married, voted or appointed). Why for example would foreign kings, queens and even princes en princesses of other countries be more deserving of the Dutch non-house orders than princess Laurentien - or than all the Dutch people that might do lots of good for Dutch society (same goes of course for British and other societies in relation to their orders) and if they are lucky receive the lowest or second lowest grade of those orders. So, it is really ceremonially. The question of course remains how the queen goes about this ceremonial act... and why she does it the way she does (which we probably never will know for sure).
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  #1254  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Swedish "RFO" is not really an Order. The royal ladies receive these as a memento and can wear these to show attachment to the Sovereign. It is also called The King's Portrait, which in itself already says it is not an Order.
You hit the nail on the head there, Duc. There is no Swedish RFO. In Swedish it's called "Kungens porträtt" which as you wrote translates as "The Kings portrait".
I don't know if the misconception about it being an Order has its base in a mistranslation or a misunderstanding by someone who, as often happens, assumes that everything in Royal Europe is exactly the same as in the UK.
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  #1255  
Old 12-06-2017, 09:10 PM
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Dropping into this thread always reminds me of Christmas - favourite programmes repeated.

For what it's worth - I think Catherine not receiving this is about ivory. I don't think HMQ has a problem with Catherine and her work and support of the BRF. I think that is why Catherine is in receipt of significant royal jewels. The bracelet created by Philip for the Queen set me off in this direction and nothing has happened to change my mind.

I also think that Catherine isn't worried about what people think because she is secure in the knowledge that she is a true part of the family both personally and "professionally".

What I don't understand is why she cant wear the thing reversed (usually the royal cypher in precious stones/metal on enamel) without showing the image of the Queen. Maybe there is a reason for this such as pin and settings.

But what I am convinced of is that HMQ does not have an issue with the Duchess of Cambridge.

EDIT: just found picture of reverse - understand now http://www.medals.org.uk/united-king...kingdom671.jpg
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  #1256  
Old 01-15-2018, 11:33 AM
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What I don't understand is why she cant wear the thing reversely (usually the royal cypher in precious stones/metal on enamel) without showing the image of the Queen. Maybe there is a reason for this such as pin and settings.
I don't see the point for her to wear it reversed. If you receive an order then just wear it in the way that it should be, I don't think there is any order allows that much variation. Wearing it reversely is like wearing another order.




A question about the Garter, does Charles have another version of badge rather than the usual gold one?
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  #1257  
Old 01-15-2018, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by W.Y.CII View Post
I don't see the point for her to wear it reversed. If you receive an order then just wear it in the way that it should be, I don't think there is any order allows that much variation. Wearing it reversely is like wearing another order.




A question about the Garter, does Charles have another version of badge rather than the usual gold one?
Many of the Lesser George’s are designed differently. Prince Charles is just wearing a different design. Likely one worn from a previous member of the royal family.
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  #1258  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:32 PM
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I know they would wear badge/star from previous member, but I remember I have seen Charles also wore the gold one before. I thought they would just stick to particular one (like the item is assigned to somebody, only he/she would wear it and the newcomer would pick the other one).
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  #1259  
Old 01-15-2018, 04:24 PM
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Maybe as heir apparent, he has one with more precious stones like his mother's.
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  #1260  
Old 01-16-2018, 05:53 AM
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Yes, Prince Charles wears a different version of the Lesser George at evening events. I think his star might be different too, and I can't find a picture that shows enough detail but I think he may have enhanced versions of the Bath insignia too. He wears the standard gold Lesser George on his uniforms, and so did the Queen back when she rode at her birthday parade. Edit: This picture gives a closer look at his Garter and Bath stars, and his badge of the Order of the Bath. The Bath star looks like it could be this one, commissioned for Prince Albert.

Custom jeweled insignia used to be more common, in and out of the royal family, but I think that's mostly gone out of style, for reasons of economy but also of taste. A lot of the designs aren't very masculine to modern eyes, and formal evening events are much less common than they used to be.
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