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  #781  
Old 01-03-2017, 09:25 AM
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The Queen uses to me a bizarre system. Philip, Charles and William are Garter Knights. None has a GCVO, yet Andrew and Edward have it.

AS for the RFO, I've gone done that street too many times. Outwardly at least, there appears to be no rhyme or reason to British orders.
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  #782  
Old 01-03-2017, 09:33 AM
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I think maybe the Order of Merit took the place of the Royal Victorian Order for Philip and Charles. That was also a departure from past practice, as it had never been given to a member of the royal family (except the marginal case of Lord Mountbatten, who certainly had other qualifications) before the Duke of Edinburgh got it.
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  #783  
Old 01-03-2017, 10:18 AM
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The Royal Victorian Order is for service to the monarch. Since Charles is a future monarch maybe that is why Charles doesn't have that one but all his siblings do plus Sophie and Camilla.
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  #784  
Old 01-03-2017, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The Queen uses to me a bizarre system. Philip, Charles and William are Garter Knights. None has a GCVO, yet Andrew and Edward have it.

AS for the RFO, I've gone done that street too many times. Outwardly at least, there appears to be no rhyme or reason to British orders.
The three named royals all received the very highest English Order, two of them also have the very highest Scottish Order. For me that explains why they do not have the "build-up" in Orders other British royals have: simply because they already received the highest possible royal honours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
Queen Elizabeth is the only British Sovereign who has made family members wait for her family order. She and Margaret wore them as little girls and P Alexandra also wore them as a teenager before her royal work had started. George V's daughters in law received them upon marriage with Princess Marina actually wearing her's on her wedding gown. On saying that it wasn't something that was practiced at the start of her reign as all the British Princesses already in the family got it for her coronation. So looking back the British RFO was the same as the Swedish one in the past being simply a nice token given by the sovereign to female relatives upon entry to the family and certainly not something to be earned. Why the Queen changed this I don't know as knighthoods and damehoods are still in existence to be bestowed as a mark of esteem.
That is interesting, that the RFO was more or less the same as The King's Miniature in Sweden: a memento for female members born (or upon entrance) in the Royal House. Interesting that this RFO has developed from a nice memento to the Sovereign into an "award".
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  #785  
Old 01-03-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The three named royals all received the very highest English Order, two of them also have the very highest Scottish Order. For me that explains why they do not have the "build-up" in Orders other British royals have: simply because they already received the highest possible royal honours.

Philip, Charles and William all have the Garter and Thistle. Highest English and Scottish orders. As future monarchs, Charles and William probably won't ever receive a Knighthood for the Royal Victorian Order since it's for service to the monarch.
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  #786  
Old 01-03-2017, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Philip, Charles and William all have the Garter and Thistle. Highest English and Scottish orders. As future monarchs, Charles and William probably won't ever receive a Knighthood for the Royal Victorian Order since it's for service to the monarch.
I missed that William also has the Thistle in the meantime. Thanks. This indeed underlines that being bestowed the two most supreme Orders possible means no "build up".

For Charles and William we will see that in foreign Orders: Charles has a lot of foreign royal Orders and as King he will receive higher Orders when visiting or receiving the same monarchy again.

For an example: he has the Orden de Isabel la Católica and will receive the (supreme) Orden del Toisón de Oro when he visits or receives the Spanish monarch as head of state.
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  #787  
Old 01-03-2017, 01:00 PM
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Being heir to the throne dosn't stop you receiving the Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order. It's the highest order the Monarch has in his/her personal gift for services to the Crown even though it ranks below other orders of chivalry such as the Garter. Queen Victoria gave it to her son who later became Edward VII, he gave it to the future George V and he in turn gave it to his son the Prince of Wales and future Edward VIII.
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  #788  
Old 01-03-2017, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
Being heir to the throne dosn't stop you receiving the Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order. It's the highest order the Monarch has in his/her personal gift for services to the Crown even though it ranks below other orders of chivalry such as the Garter. Queen Victoria gave it to her son who later became Edward VII, he gave it to the future George V and he in turn gave it to his son the Prince of Wales and future Edward VIII.
In Victoria's and Edward's time the Royal Victorian Order was the highest order the Monarch had in his/her personal gift.
In 1946 membership of the United Kingdom's highest ranking Orders of Chivalry (the Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle and the dormant Order of St. Patrick) became a personal gift of the Sovereign.
Charles and William are Knights of the Garter, the highest possible royal honour.
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  #789  
Old 01-03-2017, 03:12 PM
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Hi th ug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
In Victoria's and Edward's time the Royal Victorian Order was the highest order the Monarch had in his/her personal gift.
In 1946 membership of the United Kingdom's highest ranking Orders of Chivalry (the Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle and the dormant Order of St. Patrick) became a personal gift of the Sovereign.
Charles and William are Knights of the Garter, the highest possible royal honour.
Not true I'm afraid. Every other order if chivalry has to be approved by the prime minister. That's what makes the RVO so unique. It's the only order ENTIRELY within the Sovereign's gift.
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  #790  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
Hi th ug

Not true I'm afraid. Every other order if chivalry has to be approved by the prime minister. That's what makes the RVO so unique. It's the only order ENTIRELY within the Sovereign's gift.
No.

Quote:
Knights of the Garter are chosen personally by the Sovereign to honour those who have held public office, who have contributed in a particular way to national life or who have served the Sovereign personally.
https://www.royal.uk/order-garter
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  #791  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:14 PM
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This statement from BP regarding the 2005 appointments to the garter may help clear up any confusion...

The appointment of the Knights and Ladies of the Garter is in The Queen's gift (that is to say without Prime Ministerial advice). Appointments to the Order of the Garter are therefore in the same category as the Order of the Thistle, the Order of Merit and the Royal Victorian Order which are also in The Queen's gift.

https://www.royal.uk/appointments-order-garter-2005

Whilst I'm sure the government could express its unhappiness if the Queen decided to appointment someone wholly unsuitable to the order - say Kim Jong Un - it appears to me there's nothing they could do about it.
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  #792  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:16 PM
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Ii to To marry [QUOTE=Spheno;1951589]No.


https://www.royal.uk/order-garter[/QUOTE

The Garter is for services to the country at large not to the Sovereign personally and is approved by the government of the day. An example is when the Emperor of Japan received it in the early 1970's. The Queen received enormous criticism as this was a man who had presided over the torture and deaths of thousands of British prisoners of war only 30 years before. The Palace was then quick to point out that the decision to give it to him was the government's and not the Queen's.
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  #793  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:31 PM
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This is getting confusing (or I'm just having a bad day)

As I understand it -
GCVO highest for services to HMQ
GArter - highest for services to Country

Question
Are we saying that all "stranger knights" have to be agreed by the Government?
or was this because, in the case of Emperor of Japan, there was potential controversy?
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  #794  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:48 PM
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Well, it would be nice to see the only senior family member, who don't have any honors, be awarded in this new year.

The family order isn't a knighthood, but a family Memento. Just pointing out the difference.
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  #795  
Old 01-03-2017, 04:49 PM
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There is no comparison between the two orders. The Garter is ultra exclusive, limited to 24 Knights of a single class. The order is something like 700 years old.

The RVO is much newer. It's membership is unlimited and divided over several classes.

Knights of the Garter are chosen personally by the Sovereign to honour those who have held public office, who have contributed in a particular way to national life or who have served the Sovereign personally. These have included Marshal of the RAF, Lord Stirrup, and former Prime Ministers Sir John Major and Sir Winston Churchill.

https://www.royal.uk/order-garter

The RVO allows the Queen to award people like her private secretary or surgeon-gynecologist with a knighthood as they would never qualify for the exalted level of Garter Knight.
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  #796  
Old 01-03-2017, 05:11 PM
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Emperor Hirohito got the Garter in 1929 from George V. It was degraded in 1941 and restored in 1971. Degrading and restoring it would be government decisions.
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  #797  
Old 01-03-2017, 06:23 PM
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Anyway, we may expect Catherine with the RFO, any more time it takes, the shorter the wait, let us say.

For the Princess Michael I have the theory that the RFO is for every born senior Princess in the royal family, spouses to Princes in the direct line and by extension spouses of royal Dukes.

This means that junior princesses (like Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and Michael), as well the future non-royal Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent will not receive the RFO.

This theory means that the RFO will be worn by Camilla, Catherine, the future Princess George, Charlotte, the future Princess Harry, Anne, Sophie, plus Alexandra, Brigitte and Katharine as the remnants of the extended family.
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  #798  
Old 01-04-2017, 01:46 AM
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as i understand it the "trick" with getting of an RFO is that there is no theory to it; it is a personal choice by the monarch according to their own "whim and fancy"
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  #799  
Old 01-04-2017, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
as i understand it the "trick" with getting of an RFO is that there is no theory to it; it is a personal choice by the monarch according to their own "whim and fancy"
The thing is, after all this time, Catherine would normally already have it. I still think the order being made with ivory is the issue. The thing is it's pretty easy to make it with porcelain or so I think. Why make Catherine stand out without having the order? She's attending State Banquets and receptions without it and it's something that's required for the senior women to wear at those events.

The Queen should fix this issue. It may seem like small potatoes to some, but to me it's unfair and make no sense what so ever.
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  #800  
Old 01-04-2017, 03:04 AM
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Obviously, as they can use something other than ivory, the Queen doesn't believe that Kate has done sufficient service to HM to earn it. What criteria HM has for that we don't know but we do know that length of marriage and having children isn't sufficient as The Duchess of York had a longer period of marriage and two children and didn't get it so neither length of marriage or having children or doing a few duties is what the Queen requires for it to be awarded.

Just because some members of the public think that she deserves it makes no difference to HM who is the only person who has to make the decision.
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