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  #761  
Old 12-30-2016, 09:27 PM
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The Honours thread

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The Royal Family honours aren't announced in the New Year's or Queen's Birthday honours but at times that HM feels is appropriate.

Given that the honours that the Queen awards to her family have virtually all been awarded, other than upgrades, there isn't too many left to award.

Charles could get the Thistle I suppose as he doesn't have that, while both William and Anne do.

I suspect that HM won't give either Harry or William any more so that Charles can give them when he is King.

Charles has the Thistle already. Kate seems like the most obvious family member to get one. Everyone else has at least one while Kate has nothing. It kind of stands out especially in that photo from the diplomatic reception. If the Cambridges move back to London in 2017, they will probably become State Dinner regulars and Kate needs sash especially if she isn't wearing a RFO.
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  #762  
Old 12-30-2016, 09:40 PM
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Sorry I missed that Charles had the Thistle.

Honours, within the Royal Family, are given at the whim of HM and people have to do enough to satisfy her that they are worthy of such honours.

If someone hasn't been honoured by her then she simply believes they haven't earnt it yet - simple really. Just because we think someone has done enough doesn't mean she thinks so.

One thing I remember seeing discussed in the late 80s and early 90s (obviously not in places like this) was why didn't Sarah have any honours and then in 1992 that marriage ended, despite all looking outwardly fine in 1991. Maybe the Queen knows something we don't about the state of the marriages of her children and grandchildren, maybe she is waiting longer now after giving awards to Diana only to see her marriage fail. We don't know.

We do know that the royal family's honours are not announced with the official honours lists as these are the government's recommendations, with a few to members of the royal household who have provided exemplary service to the family.
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  #763  
Old 12-30-2016, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Sorry I missed that Charles had the Thistle.

Honours, within the Royal Family, are given at the whim of HM and people have to do enough to satisfy her that they are worthy of such honours.

If someone hasn't been honoured by her then she simply believes they haven't earnt it yet - simple really. Just because we think someone has done enough doesn't mean she thinks so.

One thing I remember seeing discussed in the late 80s and early 90s (obviously not in places like this) was why didn't Sarah have any honours and then in 1992 that marriage ended, despite all looking outwardly fine in 1991. Maybe the Queen knows something we don't about the state of the marriages of her children and grandchildren, maybe she is waiting longer now after giving awards to Diana only to see her marriage fail. We don't know.

We do know that the royal family's honours are not announced with the official honours lists as these are the government's recommendations, with a few to members of the royal household who have provided exemplary service to the family.
The Queen has never given Diana an honor other than the obvious family order.

I do think it's odd that members of the royal household are given honours for working behind the scenes forba short period of time, but her family get nothing for many many years on doing the actual job.

The Queen knows Catherine and Camilla has done enough. I think for the family order, ivory is the issue for Catherine. It doesn't stop her from getting a knighthood though. I'm really hoping somewhere in 2017 Catherine will receive some kind of honour from her grandmother in law.
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  #764  
Old 12-30-2016, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I do think it's odd that members of the royal household are given honours for working behind the scenes forba short period of time, but her family get nothing for many many years on doing the actual job.
The oddity lies in that there's two different dynamics at play here. In the Honors List that are released at various times of the year, it is at the government's discretion and it is mostly for public service to the Crown and to the Country. The applications and acceptances of who gets honors and who doesn't is done through the governmental department that handles it.

The family honors that the Queen bestows on her family are solely on the whims of HM, The Queen and no one else. If she doesn't like someone in the family solely because that person wears bright orange day in, day out, its her right. Someone that wears her favorite shade of blue all the time she may feel more favorable about giving a family honor to. Its as simple as that. Its the Queen's prerogative in this matter.
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  #765  
Old 12-30-2016, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The oddity lies in that there's two different dynamics at play here. In the Honors List that are released at various times of the year, it is at the government's discretion and it is mostly for public service to the Crown and to the Country. The applications and acceptances of who gets honors and who doesn't is done through the governmental department that handles it.

The family honors that the Queen bestows on her family are solely on the whims of HM, The Queen and no one else. If she doesn't like someone in the family solely because that person wears bright orange day in, day out, its her right. Someone that wears her favorite shade of blue all the time she may feel more favorable about giving a family honor to. Its as simple as that. Its the Queen's prerogative in this matter.
Its sure not how her father, grandfather, great grandfather or great grandmother worked. Sounds more like The Queen has a problem with giving her family a pat on the back for their service to her. She got her grandfathers and father's family orders when she was just a little girl.
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  #766  
Old 12-30-2016, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Its sure not how her father, grandfather, great grandfather or great grandmother worked. Sounds more like The Queen has a problem with giving her family a pat on the back for their service to her. She got her grandfathers and father's family orders when she was just a little girl.
I disagree. All of the current working female members of the Royal family with the exception of Catherine have both the RFO and a Damehood in the Royal Victorian Order. All of the Queen's children have the order of the garter as do the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester and Princess Alexandra. William has the orders of the thistle and the garter, Harry and Tim have knighthoods in the RVO. She may be slow in handing out awards (in the opinions of some) but she certainly hands them out.

If certain members of the family don't have awards the facts suggest there are other reasons than that the Queen has a problem giving her family a pat on the back.

Given that most people on the honours list work for decades to get their honours I don't think it's inappropriate that members of the Queen's family should also wait. What's more, generally, those honoured perform service or achieve above and beyond their peers, the royal family get their honours simply for doing their jobs - jobs that already come with exceptional perks.
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  #767  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post

The Queen knows Catherine and Camilla has done enough.

May I ask how you 'know' what the Queen thinks or knows about Catherine or Camilla?

If you are a member of her family or household - the only people who would have any chance of knowing then you really shouldn't be sharing that information on a public forum but respecting your relationship to the Queen.

If you aren't in personal contact with the Queen then you don't know anything more than the rest of us.
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  #768  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
May I ask how you 'know' what the Queen thinks or knows about Catherine or Camilla?

If you are a member of her family or household - the only people who would have any chance of knowing then you really shouldn't be sharing that information on a public forum but respecting your relationship to the Queen.

If you aren't in personal contact with the Queen then you don't know anything more than the rest of us.
I agree with you. But by the same token, I agree with you whether it's Dman's statement or yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
If someone hasn't been honoured by her then she simply believes they haven't earnt it yet - simple really.
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  #769  
Old 12-31-2016, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
May I ask how you 'know' what the Queen thinks or knows about Catherine or Camilla?

If you are a member of her family or household - the only people who would have any chance of knowing then you really shouldn't be sharing that information on a public forum but respecting your relationship to the Queen.

If you aren't in personal contact with the Queen then you don't know anything more than the rest of us.
She's knows because she can see what they're doing. It's the wrong thread, but just hoping they're some family honours coming up in the new year. Nothing wrong with hoping my friend.
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  #770  
Old 12-31-2016, 02:30 AM
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Again - how do you 'know' she 'knows'?

Please tell us your source.

On this board I was always told we had to identify our sources and you keep saying The Queen 'knows' that they have done enough to get honours but have provided no source or evidence that she 'knows' anything of the sort.

So please tell us your source.

This is a thread about honours for surely that includes a discussion of the honours given or not given to members of the RF?
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  #771  
Old 12-31-2016, 02:43 AM
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HM, The Queen may know each and every little move her family makes at all times but the fact remains that we, as outsiders, do not know what HM, The Queen uses as her yardstick to measure who gets honors and when they get honors or for what reason they get honors.

Now I have a question. Is there other orders under the Queen's prerogative that is solely for a member of the Royal Family other than the monarch's RFO?

If not, then it would stand to reason that any of the other orders and knighthoods are set to a certain standard and they aren't awarded simply for being a female member of the monarch's family.
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  #772  
Old 12-31-2016, 02:58 AM
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There aren't orders just for the royal family. There are orders that it's up to the Queen to pick the people. However, there is much lower threshold for a royal than if a regular person. If William and Harry were regular people, they would not have any knighthoods based on what they have achieved so far. They have 3 knighthoods because they are princes. A regular person would need multiple decades of work in an area to be considered for a knighthood or be a multiple Olympics medal winner.
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  #773  
Old 12-31-2016, 05:30 AM
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I do not believe that Catherine will ever receive an order from the Queen. I believe that this is generational and it is out of respect for her granddaughter/granddaughters who will not receive an order.

Zara is not a member of the royal family and the other granddaughters are not working royals. Maybe I am wrong, but this is my suspicion. Can she present a royal family order to Zara? Is there presidence for a granddaughter-in-law to receive an order?

I do realize that it is the Queen's decision to whom and when these things are done.

Edit: after searching portraits of Queen Mary, I discovered one of her with some type of Victoria and Albert order. That would mean that she was a wife of the heir to the heir. The same relationship as Catherine. She had five family orders!!!
Edit: You can see the Victoria/Albert order on Mary in her wedding pictures.
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  #774  
Old 12-31-2016, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Catherine and Camilla could get an honour. Camilla is turning 70 next year. Catherine has worked hard for the firm too.

I'm just stating the new year would be a great time for some family members to receive an award.
Let me ask you, why do you think so?
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  #775  
Old 12-31-2016, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle View Post
I do not believe that Catherine will ever receive an order from the Queen. I believe that this is generational and it is out of respect for her granddaughter/granddaughters who will not receive an order.

Zara is not a member of the royal family and the other granddaughters are not working royals. Maybe I am wrong, but this is my suspicion. Can she present a royal family order to Zara? Is there presidence for a granddaughter-in-law to receive an order?

I do realize that it is the Queen's decision to whom and when these things are done.

Edit: after searching portraits of Queen Mary, I discovered one of her with some type of Victoria and Albert order. That would mean that she was a wife of the heir to the heir. The same relationship as Catherine. She had five family orders!!!
Edit: You can see the Victoria/Albert order on Mary in her wedding pictures.
Catherine will have four family orders; Elizabeth II, Charles's, William's and, if she lives long enough, George's.

It would be totally wrong for Catherine not to receive anything for her years of service under The Queen's reign.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamboleio View Post
Let me ask you, why do you think so?
Because I believe in the nearly six years of facts.
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  #776  
Old 12-31-2016, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The oddity lies in that there's two different dynamics at play here. In the Honors List that are released at various times of the year, it is at the government's discretion and it is mostly for public service to the Crown and to the Country. The applications and acceptances of who gets honors and who doesn't is done through the governmental department that handles it.

The family honors that the Queen bestows on her family are solely on the whims of HM, The Queen and no one else. If she doesn't like someone in the family solely because that person wears bright orange day in, day out, its her right. Someone that wears her favorite shade of blue all the time she may feel more favorable about giving a family honor to. Its as simple as that. Its the Queen's prerogative in this matter.
There are in fact 3 dynamics involved.

BIrthday and New Years Honours Lists

1. Government selection
2. Royal Victorian Order - in the gift of the Queen for services to her and her family. This NY includes some Lord Lieutenants, Queens hairdresser, plant shop manager from Sandringham, a Master Saddler from Royal Mews and a Gate Keeper.

Private and never publically announced
3. Royal Family Order
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  #777  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:03 PM
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I prefer the Swedish system. There it is not an Order but litterally called: "The King's Miniature" and is just a memento to the Sovereign. As one can see with Lilian, Silvia and Sofia, it is not an "awarding" but something one gets when becoming part of the family.

In Britain the RFO, intentionally or unintentionally, becomes a sort of "royal seal of approval" and that is a pity because as long as we see Catherine or Prince Harry's future spouse without a RFO this fuels theories that the Queen would disapprove or snub them and personally I am sure that this is not the case at all.
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  #778  
Old 01-03-2017, 08:30 AM
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The Queen has been slower with honours than her predecessors, and she seems to have perhaps gotten a little more so as her reign has advanced. Not just for her family and in-laws either. GCVOs for governors-general seem to have dried up by the 1990s or so (although this is perhaps a result of her reduced travel). And her current private secretary didn't get his KCVO for four years, even though his predecessors received it immediately on (or just before) appointment.

Andrew and Edward started out with CVOs and were promoted twice, and Harry started with a KCVO. In previous generations they would have gotten a GCVO quite early on. It must be a conscientious decision to reduce some of the honorific trappings of the royal family, because she's made several such decisions. Edward getting an earldom for the time being also fits into that. I believe Hugo Vickers wrote in Royal Orders that the Duchess of Kent was seen as having to wait quite a long time for her GCVO compared to previous royal wives.

I do think it's odd that neither her husband nor eldest son hold the Royal Victorian Order in any grade (the Duke of Edinburgh eventually received the Royal Victorian Chain). She seems to max out at three British knighthoods for her family, so it fits her practice, but their absence from an order given for personal service to the monarch is still striking given that they're perhaps the two people who have done the most work on her behalf at this point.
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  #779  
Old 01-03-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
The Queen has been slower with honours than her predecessors, and she seems to have perhaps gotten a little more so as her reign has advanced. Not just for her family and in-laws either. GCVOs for governors-general seem to have dried up by the 1990s or so (although this is perhaps a result of her reduced travel). And her current private secretary didn't get his KCVO for four years, even though his predecessors received it immediately on (or just before) appointment.

Andrew and Edward started out with CVOs and were promoted twice, and Harry started with a KCVO. In previous generations they would have gotten a GCVO quite early on. It must be a conscientious decision to reduce some of the honorific trappings of the royal family, because she's made several such decisions. Edward getting an earldom for the time being also fits into that. I believe Hugo Vickers wrote in Royal Orders that the Duchess of Kent was seen as having to wait quite a long time for her GCVO compared to previous royal wives.

I do think it's odd that neither her husband nor eldest son hold the Royal Victorian Order in any grade (the Duke of Edinburgh eventually received the Royal Victorian Chain). She seems to max out at three British knighthoods for her family, so it fits her practice, but their absence from an order given for personal service to the monarch is still striking given that they're perhaps the two people who have done the most work on her behalf at this point.
The Queen is in her 90's now. There's not a lot of time for her to sit around and wait to give knighthoods to the family.

Right now, Catherine is attending State Banquets and Diplomatic receptions without the family order. It could be due to the ivory issue, but it's an easy fix. At least Camilla got the Victorian Order and the personal family order.

Her system is beyond odd compared to the past and her European counterparts. I really don't think it's about hitting a magic number of official engagements to prove ones dedication to her and the country. Or even a certain amount of years. I think it's something she really don't think about.
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  #780  
Old 01-03-2017, 08:58 AM
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Queen Elizabeth is the only British Sovereign who has made family members wait for her family order. She and Margaret wore them as little girls and P Alexandra also wore them as a teenager before her royal work had started. George V's daughters in law received them upon marriage with Princess Marina actually wearing her's on her wedding gown. On saying that it wasn't something that was practiced at the start of her reign as all the British Princesses already in the family got it for her coronation. So looking back the British RFO was the same as the Swedish one in the past being simply a nice token given by the sovereign to female relatives upon entry to the family and certainly not something to be earned. Why the Queen changed this I don't know as knighthoods and damehoods are still in existence to be bestowed as a mark of esteem.
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