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  #661  
Old 05-15-2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post

No one hold Catherine higher than anyone. Catherine is pretty much third lady of the land after The Queen and Camilla. Camilla got hers after two years of marriage. It's been five years for Catherine now. It's perfectly natural to expect her to have her family order by now.

Catherine should have it by this years State Visit and the next Diplomatic Cops Reception in Dec. If not, it will be beyond odd.
I just dont see why she should receive RFO when she is not even full time working royal? If she is not fully committed to royal duties, why should she be awarded - just because she gave birth to the heir and spare?

In my opinion both Sofie and Camilla had to "earn it" - both did much more royal duties in their first years of marriage than Catherine - so Catherine should too.

I think Catherine will have her RFO when is will be full time working royal (most likely) or when she starts doing more engagements.
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  #662  
Old 05-15-2016, 09:46 AM
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I would simply negate any of these reports! The influence of the media goes much too far. It´s ok if the crown jeweller is asked to use an alternative material for it. But to make royal ladies stopping wearing an order the Queen gave to them only because of public (media !) opinion would be an absurd and outrageous thing to do at the same time!
If there WERE any critical reports, so what!? This would last for 1 or 2 days and another subject comes along which is more relevant and more interesting.
Do we tear down old buildings, cathedrals still in use today because workers and builders were exploited and had hardly any rights or the Pyramids because they were built under circumstances we would never approve today by slaves? Do we give back works of art from our museums we dragged out of exotic places during colonioal times? I could extent this list endlessly.
This is such a hypocritical, non-important matter if royal orders are made of ivory or not! I´m totally against using new items made of ivory. But not using existing ones anymore is nonsense. The royal family is well advised not to obey to public popular opinion when it comes to every little detail, and that´s what it is.
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  #663  
Old 05-15-2016, 09:46 AM
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I'm in the camp who thinks it's an ivory issue. No matter what, it will make for bad headlines.

The other thing is, there is no pattern to who gets what orders and when.

Only the Queen knows the reasons why Sophie has the order of St John and Camilla doesn't and the same goes for everyone else.

From the Duke of Edinburgh on down to Prince Michael of Kent. Philip has an order that Charles doesn't have and Charles has an order Philip doesn't have. William was made a knight of the Thistle but his uncles didn't receive it etc.

You'll give yourself a headache trying to find any sort of hidden meaning in any of it.
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  #664  
Old 05-15-2016, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mademoisellekate View Post
I just dont see why she should receive RFO when she is not even full time working royal? If she is not fully committed to royal duties, why should she be awarded - just because she gave birth to the heir and spare?

In my opinion both Sofie and Camilla had to "earn it" - both did much more royal duties in their first years of marriage than Catherine - so Catherine should too.

I think Catherine will have her RFO when is will be full time working royal (most likely) or when she starts doing more engagements.

I don´t see how or by what actions Camilla or Sophie did more to deserve the RFO than Catherine! How do you define "more"? The one who performs 102 engagements deserves one, the one who did only 100 doesn´t ? The Dss o Cambridge for instance had 2 pregnancies in a relatively short time gap. Still she did several successful well received overseas tours. I don´t know how you measure the benefit of the work of C and S to the country in comparision to Catherine´s...?!
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  #665  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
I'm in the camp who thinks it's an ivory issue. No matter what, it will make for bad headlines.

So be it, so what?! Bad headlines they get anyway and are a part of today´s realities every royal family (at least european ones) has to deal with.
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  #666  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:06 AM
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William and Harry aren't full time royals and Kate's engagement numbers are similar in the non pregnancy years. They have 3 Knighthoods between the 2 brothers.


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  #667  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
So be it, so what?! Bad headlines they get anyway and are a part of today´s realities every royal family (at least european ones) has to deal with.
As others have pointed out, it's one of William's most high profile activities as a royal. He has spoken out many times about ivory. I just think it would be giving the tabloids a freebie to wear it.
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  #668  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:13 AM
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I think this discussion has only been running in circles. As the reasons for RFO are undisclosed to the public, it is pointless to claim over and over again that Kate hasn't had the order yet because of the ivory. The royal watchers don't even know if maybe she has already received.

I have already stated that, IMO, ivory is not the real motive, but my opinion is just that, an opinion as any others, since only her majesty is the one bestowing the order. I think it's useless to talk about this again. When/If Kate will appear with the order pin it up, then everybody will be talking about how wonderful is it that she has finally worn it and the whole matter will be forgotton.
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  #669  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
I don´t see how or by what actions Camilla or Sophie did more to deserve the RFO than Catherine! How do you define "more"? The one who performs 102 engagements deserves one, the one who did only 100 doesn´t ? The Dss o Cambridge for instance had 2 pregnancies in a relatively short time gap. Still she did several successful well received overseas tours. I don´t know how you measure the benefit of the work of C and S to the country in comparision to Catherine´s...?!
Camilla and Sophie are both full time working royals, so they do more (about 200 per year) royal duties for the Firm.

Catherine is not full time royal so she does significantly less work for the Firm. When her kids will be older she may become full time royal and then receive her RFO.

All of them have great overseas tours. Catherine's ones just got more publicity.
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  #670  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:20 AM
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I don't think people are claiming she wasn't given the order because of the ivory. It's more not wearing the order because of the ivory. Since the order is not announced as given and the only way to know if she has it if it's worn, we aren't going to know. She could not have it or have it and chooses to not wear it.


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  #671  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mademoisellekate View Post
Camilla and Sophie are both full time working royals, so they do more (about 200 per year) royal duties for the Firm.

Catherine is not full time royal so she does significantly less work for the Firm. When her kids will be older she may become full time royal and then receive her RFO.

All of them have great overseas tours. Catherine's ones just got more publicity.

I know all that and don´t "scream" at me by bolding your lines!!!
Still I don´t know how you measure up royal engagements. Doing more only by number is no argument in my opinion.
Publicity is one, if not THE, important factor to promote Britain´s and the Commonwealth´s industry, its way of living and values!
If you don´t get any attention, well....
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  #672  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
I don't think people are claiming she wasn't given the order because of the ivory. It's more not wearing the order because of the ivory. Since the order is not announced as given and the only way to know if she has it if it's worn, we aren't going to know. She could not have it or have it and chooses to not wear it.


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That's what I was trying to say in my own convoluted way
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  #673  
Old 05-15-2016, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
I know all that and don´t "scream" at me by bolding your lines!!!
Still I don´t know how you measure up royal engagements. Doing more only by number is no argument in my opinion.
If I would scream at you, I would use capital letters.

I think I have made my case clear so there is no need for me to repeat myself.

IMO the numbers of engagement performed by royal is objective way how you measure his/her contribution to the firm - not likeability or whatever of royal. Just because trash magazines write about you doesnt mean you deserve RFO.
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  #674  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:04 AM
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Guys, please let's not get into a frenzy about this.

I don't think getting the Royal family order is due down the amount of engagements one has done. Sophie wasn't doing that much engagements when she got the DJStJ order. Also, Camilla has just started her Royal career when she got it. The same can be said about Diana and others.
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  #675  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:08 AM
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Yes it does! Wearing an used one means no "new" ivory had to be used. It is there anyway and putting them in store wouldn´t help, makes no sense.

The King of the Netherlands still uses the hermine coat at his investiture although nobody would kill a mink these days to create a royal mantle.

Yes but the King of the Netherlands hasn't made the fur trade one of his most high profile issues, nor has he stated that he thinks antique furs ought to be destroyed/stored away and not used.

William however? Has stated that about ivory.


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  #676  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:28 AM
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I think if ivory is the issue, a new setting can be created. I'm sure Spinks or G. Collins & Sons would be happy to do it. Just leaving her bare of a family order over the issue would be beyond silly, IMO.
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  #677  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:31 AM
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I think if ivory is the issue, a new setting can be created. I'm sure Spinks or G. Collins & Sons would be happy to do it.

Of course they can. But again, that then creates stories about the ivory the other women wear and the opportunity to question what the royal family intend to do with the ivory work they own, given William (and Charles) and their conservation work and calls to end the demand for illegal ivory by making sure it isn't seen as valuable- not using it or displaying it.


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  #678  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
Of course they can. But again, that then creates stories about the ivory the other women wear and the opportunity to question what the royal family intend to do with the ivory work they own, given William (and Charles) and their conservation work and calls to end the demand for illegal ivory by making sure it isn't seen as valuable- not using it or displaying it.


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Charles also joins William on the ivory trade, but Camilla still wear her family order that's made with ivory. I still say if ivory presents a problem, why not have all the Royal ladies orders reset without ivory?

I just think it's not fair to leave Catherine bare of the family order over the use of ivory, when there's a simple and obvious solution to the problem. If that's the actual problem.
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  #679  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:54 AM
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So lets all agree to disagree and wait to see what happens. Maybe Catherine hasn't been seen with RFO just so she and the Queen can sit back and read the hilarious comments in this discussion ;-)
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  #680  
Old 05-15-2016, 12:12 PM
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The facts is that the Queen has only given the Royal Family Order swiftly (within the first year or two of married life) to Charles's wives, and that is because he is the Prince of Wales and the heir to the throne.

Yes, the ivory might be an issue as to why Kate hasn't been given the RFO as far as is known, but other reasons why she hasn't received it so far could be just as valid. First, that she has not been a full time Royal so far, (and Sophie was at the time she received it) and also William is second in line and not the direct heir.

Instead of leaping at the suggestion that the Ivory surrounding the Order is the problem, how about everyone waiting till the end of the year and seeing whether she will wear it at any appropriate occasion before then?
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