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  #621  
Old 05-14-2016, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
I know it wasn't the Elephant but my question is why were they awarded an order at all? As I said, some countries seem "order happy" which I think cheapens the award. If I received something like this, even if I was royal, I'd like to think that I'd earned it otherwise it's just a meaningless decoration to throw over an evening dress which I think is a shame.

Well, that´s the way YOU see it. Perhaps the word "order" is misleading? As I´ve explained before, the RFO was originally a mark of the sovereign´s affection, not an award that had to be earned!
So in that sense giving CPsses Mary or Mette-Marit the order at the wedding was a well fitting thing to do as the 2 monarchs knew their respective daughters-in-law a long time before they married their sons - and obviously held them in pretty high regard.
I would never assume the idea the british Queen would think Catherine should first "earn" it before she gives it out. Her sister Margaret was in her earliest 20s when she received the order and had hardly the chance to deserve it due to her age, but still received it anyway (her 14 ! year old cousin Alexandra of Kent wore 2 RFOs at the Queen´s coronation! A 14 year old schoolgirl had had also hardly the opportunity to work for Queen and Country to earn it, too...)
Besides that, giving the RFO to a lady is often regarded as a tradition, a thing you just do because it has always been that way. We cannot compare ourselves, the way we think and things do (along with the lines "do something for me and then I grant something to you") with how things are being dealt with in a reigning royal house!
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  #622  
Old 05-14-2016, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I've often wondered if the issue with the RFO for Kate is that they're made of ivory- she certainly can't be seen wearing anything ivory with William's focus on conservation, and even if they made her a special one not made of ivory- it would draw attention to the fact that other members of the family wear it.

It's a bit of a thorny issue, PR wise.


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If that was really an issue at all, they would have found simply another material (like today´s bearskins are not of bearskin anymore) - enamal for instance...
Or she could use her husband´s late mothers order. I mean it is there and will hardly be destroyed!
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  #623  
Old 05-14-2016, 02:14 PM
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The orders of the ladies that have passed are all ivory. So if the ivory is the issue, wearing Diana's, Queen Mum's etc order doesn't solve the problem.


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  #624  
Old 05-14-2016, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
Well, that´s the way YOU see it. Perhaps the word "order" is misleading? As I´ve explained before, the RFO was originally a mark of the sovereign´s affection, not an award that had to be earned!
So in that sense giving CPsses Mary or Mette-Marit the order at the wedding was a well fitting thing to do as the 2 monarchs knew their respective daughters-in-law a long time before they married their sons - and obviously held them in pretty high regard.
I would never assume the idea the british Queen would think Catherine should first "earn" it before she gives it out. Her sister Margaret was in her earliest 20s when she received the order and had hardly the chance to deserve it due to her age, but still received it anyway (her 14 ! year old cousin Alexandra of Kent wore 2 RFOs at the Queen´s coronation! A 14 year old schoolgirl had had also hardly the opportunity to work for Queen and Country to earn it, too...)
Besides that, giving the RFO to a lady is often regarded as a tradition, a thing you just do because it has always been that way. We cannot compare ourselves, the way we think and things do (along with the lines "do something for me and then I grant something to you") with how things are being dealt with in a reigning royal house!
I am well aware that before the reign of Queen Elizabeth the British RFO was given out automatically to family members and didn't have to be earned. In a previous post I have spoken about that in detail so your not describing something I don't know already. The recipient now though does seem to have to do a certain amount of service for the Monarch before she gets it. That's a change the Queen made not me I'm afraid.
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  #625  
Old 05-14-2016, 02:23 PM
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Perhaps in terms of the RFO we need to bear in mind Catherine has only attended one State Banquet so far. Maybe that plays a part kn the decision making? Who knows? To be honest we aren't ever going to know why the Queen does or does not want to do something.
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  #626  
Old 05-14-2016, 02:47 PM
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The RFO does not have to be earned. It's simply a family order that the senior Royal ladies are given and are worn at State Banquets, Diplomatic Receptions, academy arts galas, foreign Royal weddings, and the State Opening of Parliament. Catherine now attends State Banquets and Diplomatic Corps Receptions. She should already be wearing the order to these events.

If ivory is the issue, is it that hard to create a new setting in the order for Catherine to wear? Even Princess Sofia of Sweden has a new created family order.
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  #627  
Old 05-14-2016, 09:35 PM
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Maybe she has already been awarded the RFO but chooses not to wear it as it is made from ivory?? Who knows
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  #628  
Old 05-14-2016, 09:37 PM
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I don't think we will ever know for sure as its not information that is released into the public domain. We just watch and see when the occasions arise that she would wear the RFO to.
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  #629  
Old 05-14-2016, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
The RFO does not have to be earned. It's simply a family order that the senior Royal ladies are given and are worn at State Banquets, Diplomatic Receptions, academy arts galas, foreign Royal weddings, and the State Opening of Parliament. Catherine now attends State Banquets and Diplomatic Corps Receptions. She should already be wearing the order to these events.

If ivory is the issue, is it that hard to create a new setting in the order for Catherine to wear? Even Princess Sofia of Sweden has a new created family order.

My point was more that if Kate is seen wearing one, there is an excellent chance the press calls her out for hypocrisy because William has stated that even antique ivory shouldn't be worn.

If they were to issue a statement saying that hers is made of a new material- there will be headlines asking why the other ladies are still wearing ivory. It's tricky. William's stance on this has already made headlines- and it would have been even more thorny at the Chinese state banquet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-William.html




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  #630  
Old 05-14-2016, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
My point was more that if Kate is seen wearing one, there is an excellent chance the press calls her out for hypocrisy because William has stated that even antique ivory shouldn't be worn.

If they were to issue a statement saying that hers is made of a new material- there will be headlines asking why the other ladies are still wearing ivory. It's tricky. William's stance on this has already made headlines- and it would have been even more thorny at the Chinese state banquet.

Prince Williams's call to destroy royal ivory treasures 'has echo of the Nazis' says David Battie | Daily Mail Online

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Well, if that's the case, then all of the senior Royal ladies should have their family orders changed. It's not fair for Catherine not to be able to wear hers on these State occasions, but everyone else get to wear theirs. That's just not fair for her senior position.
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  #631  
Old 05-14-2016, 11:04 PM
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The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Well, if that's the case, then all of the senior Royal ladies should have their family orders changed. It's not fair for Catherine not to be able to wear hers on these State occasions, but everyone else get to wear theirs. That's just not fair for her senior position.

Then they'd have to announce the change and take an official position on whether the other historical royal ivory pieces should be destroyed- which they never have done.

I've come to think that possibly Kate will never wear the Queen's RFO and maybe will be given other honors instead. I think her first family order will be her father in laws- but that's just my conjecture.


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  #632  
Old 05-14-2016, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Well, if that's the case, then all of the senior Royal ladies should have their family orders changed. It's not fair for Catherine not to be able to wear hers on these State occasions, but everyone else get to wear theirs. That's just not fair for her senior position.
Tradition should be changed to suit one person.

Should the Queen's wishes be ignored to suit William and Catherine?

Is Catherine more senior than the Queen?
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  #633  
Old 05-14-2016, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I've come to think that possibly Kate will never where the Queen's RFO and maybe will be given other honors instead. I think her first family order will be her father in laws- but that's just my conjecture.
Along with your line of thinking, because its late in HM's reign, its possible that they don't find it prudent to make all new RFOs out of something besides ivory. I think HM did the next best thing to show how much she appreciates her granddaughter-in-law by purposely lending her the wedding bracelet that's never been loaned out before to anyone.
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  #634  
Old 05-14-2016, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Along with your line of thinking, because its late in HM's reign, its possible that they don't find it prudent to make all new RFOs out of something besides ivory. I think HM did the next best thing to show how much she appreciates her granddaughter-in-law by purposely lending her the wedding bracelet that's never been loaned out before to anyone.

That's how I interpreted the bracelet gesture as well- as a mark of goodwill and affection so no one read into Kate not wearing an order.


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  #635  
Old 05-15-2016, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
The orders of the ladies that have passed are all ivory. So if the ivory is the issue, wearing Diana's, Queen Mum's etc order doesn't solve the problem.
Ivory is still legitimately available although at horrendous cost. The amount of ivory it takes to make an RFO is very small so I do not see the issue with ivory on that level. Tusked animals die just as every other living thing.

I think the problem is that many people see Catherine not having an RFO as a personal slight to her when it is not. It is in the Queen's gift and hers to bestow as she wills it. The BRF all know what the deal is. We do not, so it seems people are jumping to unwarranted conclusions here.

As to the notion that she has one and doesn't want to wear it for whatever reason, that would be rudeness personified because the only time she would need to wear it would be in HM presence.
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  #636  
Old 05-15-2016, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
Then they'd have to announce the change and take an official position on whether the other historical royal ivory pieces should be destroyed- which they never have done.

I've come to think that possibly Kate will never wear the Queen's RFO and maybe will be given other honors instead. I think her first family order will be her father in laws- but that's just my conjecture.


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Actually, Catherine's first family order will be The Queen's, because her service started under Elizabeth II.


Folks, jewels are great, but the royal family order is a mark of respect, appreciation and affection from The Queen to her family. With five years of service to the Monarch, Catherine should have been given the order by now.

I know some are tired of me talking about it, but I just find it odd that Catherine has not been seen wearing it after all this time. If there aren't any orders left to give, one should be made. Or she could wear The Duchess of Kent's order. She no longer attend events where it would be worn.
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  #637  
Old 05-15-2016, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Ivory is still legitimately available although at horrendous cost. The amount of ivory it takes to make an RFO is very small so I do not see the issue with ivory on that level. Tusked animals die just as every other living thing.
The issue, as explained above, is that Prince William is known to be opposed to ivory, including antique ivory. If his wife wears anything made of ivory in public, it undermines one of his major conservation initiatives. It's not about availability- that's clearly not an issue.

Here are more links backing that up:

Prince William 'calls for Buckingham Palace ivory to be destroyed' | UK news | The Guardian

Prince William close to breakthrough in battle against illegal ivory trade - Telegraph

Royal ivory: Why Prince William is right | Environment | The Guardian

And here is why it would have been especially tone deaf for Catherine to wear an order made of ivory during the Chinese state visit. Can you imagine the headlines? "Kate Middleton Wears Ivory Portrait of the Queen as Hypocrite Wills Calls for Ivory Ban"


Prince William records ivory trade speech as China's President Xi arrives - BBC News

Prince William urges end to illegal ivory trade in China speech - BBC News
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  #638  
Old 05-15-2016, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Actually, Catherine's first family order will be The Queen's, because her service started under Elizabeth II.


Folks, jewels are great, but the royal family order is a mark of respect, appreciation and affection from The Queen to her family. With five years of service to the Monarch, Catherine should have been given the order by now.

I know some are tired of me talking about it, but I just find it odd that Catherine has not been seen wearing it after all this time. If there aren't any orders left to give, one should be made. Or she could wear The Duchess of Kent's order. She no longer attend events where it would be worn.
Look, I get your perspective here. I love the tradition of the Royal Family Order and would love to see it on Catherine. I agree with you that logically- after five years, and with two children- that it would make sense for her to have received it by now.

That's actually why I got interested in examining some of the reasons that she may not wear it. The Queen has loaned her important, personal jewelry which is a pretty clear sign of regard for her and for her position in the family. I doubt that Catherine hasn't received it because of a slight, or because the Queen doesn't think she's done enough.

My personal opinion, which I think I make a pretty decent case for, is that they're worried about the PR mess that could emerge around the highly sensitive issue of materials. If Kate never wears it? Only very dedicated royal watchers will ever notice. If she does wear it, and the inevitable headlines arise about the history and materials involved? It forces some difficult conversations and decisions around very important historical artworks and artifacts. The press doesn't obsessively analyze everything the older royal women wear- no one is going to report on the material on Camilla's order, or Anne's. But they absolutely would with Catherine.

We will never know for sure what conversations have taken place around this, but when I said that I think she may never wear it- I think there's at least a possibility that the family has discussed it and decided that the best way to handle it might be for Kate to not wear one during the Queen's reign.
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  #639  
Old 05-15-2016, 02:09 AM
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This is a bit off topic but along the ivory lines, it was just recently too that in a stance to fight illegal poaching, Kenya recently huge piles of ivory tusks that were valued into the millions on the market. This is part and parcel of what William's United for Wildlife is championing and adds to the reason of just why Kate wouldn't be wearing a RFO made out of ivory. Perhaps she does have it. She knows she's got it, the Queen knows she's given it to her and understands the need for diplomacy needed as far as wearing it in public.

KENYA, IN GESTURE, BURNS IVORY TUSKS - NYTimes.com
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  #640  
Old 05-15-2016, 02:27 AM
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I totally understand the ivory issue. As I said before, if the order being made with ivory is the problem, why not commission her a new order without the ivory setting? The whole thing could be solved with a new order for Catherine. Princess Sofia have a brand new version of her father-in-law's family order and everyone else wear the older version.

I just think that it's important for Catherine to be seen wearing her family order. New or old. Or at least appoint her to a knighthood. Don't allow her five years of service go underappreciated in the eyes of the public and even media. I would say the same for Camilla and Sophie, if they fell under this case.
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