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  #541  
Old 10-26-2015, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Dman, I feel like you're setting yourself up for disappointment here.

There is no official "requirements" for the RFO, at least not beyond being a member of the BRF. However, we can kind of look at the different circumstances under which the Queen has given out the RFO before and make assumptions about when she chooses to give it out.

The best example for this is Sophie. Anyone pre-Diana has the advantage of having been pre-Diana. Diana got it fairly early, but given the drama around that marriage I wouldn't be surprised if the Queen regretted doing so - Sarah, in contrast, I don't believe ever received it, likely because the Queen chose to wait to see how that marriage worked out.

Camilla got it early on, but like Diana she married the heir and became a full time royal pretty much right away. Sophie, however, did not marry the heir and did not become a full time royal right away. With her, we can see that the Queen waited until after she had been married for awhile and after she had become a full time royal before giving it to her.

Now there's Kate. She's been married for awhile, yes, she's had children, yes, but she's still not a full time royal. I'm not going to debate the issue of whether or not she should be one - there are many factors at play there - but at this time neither she nor her husband are. So it seems like the Queen is waiting to give her the RFO until she is a full time royal.
I'm not sure full-time positions have much to do with it. Both William and Harry have received honors from The Queen and they're not full-time royals.

It's just after nearly 5 years of faithful royal service to The Queen and Commonwealth and as a senior working royal, the expectation for Catherine to have the Royal Family Order is there. If not by her 5th wedding anniversary, it just wouldn't look right. I know it's a bit strange for me and some others to question The Queen's largely unknown system, but after all this time and two heirs produced, it causes me to raise an eyebrow that she hasn't yet to receive it. Now just maybe it's all down to Catherine needing to attend another State event.
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  #542  
Old 10-26-2015, 03:12 PM
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The RFO for Catherine could have been painted on porcelain, as an alternative to ivory. Tagua is also an excellent alternative for animal ivory. There are also miniatures with oil-paint on copper, which works excellent. Here you see an example of an alternative: Willem IV of Nassau, Prince of Orange, wearing the Order of the Garter on a miniature for his spouse Anne of Great Britain and Hanover, The Princess Royal. The portrait, encrusted with diamonds, is painted with enamel on copper, which has the same characteristics as glass, so it still has the original strong colours it had in 1734. (Collection of the Dutch Royal House). With other words: the ivory will not be the problem for a RFO, plenty of alternatives.
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  #543  
Old 10-26-2015, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The RFO for Catherine could have been painted on porcelain, as an alternative to ivory. Tagua is also an excellent alternative for animal ivory. There are also miniatures with oil-paint on copper, which works excellent. Here you see an example of an alternative: Willem IV of Nassau, Prince of Orange, wearing the Order of the Garter on a miniature for his spouse Anne of Great Britain and Hanover, The Princess Royal. The portrait, encrusted with diamonds, is painted with enamel on copper, which has the same characteristics as glass, so it still has the original strong colours it had in 1734. (Collection of the Dutch Royal House). With other words: the ivory will not be the problem for a RFO, plenty of alternatives.
Of course Ivory is not the problem. kate didn't receive the RFO, period.
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  #544  
Old 10-26-2015, 04:29 PM
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Why do the people who soooo... want/expect Catherine to have the order, casually dismiss why Sarah did not receive the order?

Sarah was a senior member of the royal family she had 2 children in less than 2 years yet she did not receive the RFO.

In 1989, while pregnant with Eugenie she had 327 engagements.

How many, if any, State Banquets did Sarah attend?

If Sarah did not attend the 'required' State Banquets maybe that could be the answer.

Or it could be the Queen changed her mind about handing them out just because a woman married her son.

The Queen seem to expect more from the women than the men, at least since 1986.

I think the Queen has her reasons but for the life of me I cannot figure out why Sophie has the Dame of Justice Venerable Order of Saint John but Camilla does not.

Sophie received the DJStJ a year of two after her charity work in healthcare.

Camilla does not have the DJStJ and she has been promoting health related charities for over 20 years.

This is a much bigger oversight than a parttime Catherine not receiving the RFO after only four years.
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  #545  
Old 10-26-2015, 04:36 PM
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Trying to figure out The Queen's own system on giving senior female members of the royal family the family order will make your head spin, yet alone knighthoods.
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  #546  
Old 10-26-2015, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Seeing that other Princesses got their RFO as a kiddie or a teen, we can forget the requirement that someone needs to be a "fulltime royal". Was Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone "a fulltime royal"? Was Princess Alice, Countess of Gloucester "a fulltime royal"? Was Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent "a fulltime royal"? Is Katharine, Duchess of Kent "a fulltime royal"? Is Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester "a fulltime royal"? All of them did/do not belong to the core royal family. All three of them did/do so now and then a royal engagement. And that was/is it.
To answer your questions, yes a majority of them were full time royals.

Obviously, Katharine Duchess of Kent no longer does engagements but when she was a working member of the family she was a working member of the family. Marina, Duchess of Kent represented the Queen on many occasions. To this day, Duchess of Gloucester does on average 90 events a year on behalf of The Queen.

I am not confident, but I am pretty sure Alice, Countess of Athlone, granddaughter of Queen Victoria received hers because of who she was (and honestly it would seem crazy that she had four others but didn't have one from the Queen) but she did carry out engagements on behalf of the Queen as well. It's worth noting that the late Princess Marie Louise didn't receive a RFO from the Queen or George VI (or if they did, its not documented in Wikipedia). So I don't think the Queen was just giving them out early in her reign.

Prior to the Queen's children getting older and taking on engagements...her cousins and their wives....stepped up and did what needed to be done for the last 20 to 30 years in assisting the Queen with royal engagements.
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  #547  
Old 10-26-2015, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
I'm not sure full-time positions have much to do with it. Both William and Harry have received honors from The Queen and they're not full-time royals.

It's just after nearly 5 years of faithful royal service to The Queen and Commonwealth and as a senior working royal, the expectation for Catherine to have the Royal Family Order is there. If not by her 5th wedding anniversary, it just wouldn't look right. I know it's a bit strange for me and some others to question The Queen's largely unknown system, but after all this time and two heirs produced, it causes me to raise an eyebrow that she hasn't yet to receive it. Now just maybe it's all down to Catherine needing to attend another State event.
it is indeed puzzling. one would have expected kate to have her order on time for her first state banquet, after 4 years in the family, 2 children to be the next generatiion, and being 'higher in rank' than other ladies who have received it.
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  #548  
Old 10-26-2015, 07:51 PM
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Maybe the Queen is getting forgetful might need someone to remind her about Kate.
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  #549  
Old 10-26-2015, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
To answer your questions, yes a majority of them were full time royals.

Obviously, Katharine Duchess of Kent no longer does engagements but when she was a working member of the family she was a working member of the family. Marina, Duchess of Kent represented the Queen on many occasions. To this day, Duchess of Gloucester does on average 90 events a year on behalf of The Queen.

I am not confident, but I am pretty sure Alice, Countess of Athlone, granddaughter of Queen Victoria received hers because of who she was (and honestly it would seem crazy that she had four others but didn't have one from the Queen) but she did carry out engagements on behalf of the Queen as well. It's worth noting that the late Princess Marie Louise didn't receive a RFO from the Queen or George VI (or if they did, its not documented in Wikipedia). So I don't think the Queen was just giving them out early in her reign.

Prior to the Queen's children getting older and taking on engagements...her cousins and their wives....stepped up and did what needed to be done for the last 20 to 30 years in assisting the Queen with royal engagements.
I have a reference book by Hugo Vickers which covers all Royal Orders. He states that HMQ gave her RO at the same time to:
QEQM
Queen Mary
Princess Margaret
Princess Royal
Princess MArina
Princess Alexandra
Princess Alice
Duchess of Gloucester.

All of these already had GVI RFO - I think that if you already have one, then you automatically get the next.
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  #550  
Old 10-26-2015, 10:21 PM
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That's basically all the adult Royal females at the time. Alexandra would have been 16 in 1952. I imagine when Charles takes the throne, he would do the same sort of thing with Camilla, Kate, Anne, Sophie, Alexandra, Duchess of Gloucester, Duchess of Kent. Maybe Princess Michael may even get one.


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  #551  
Old 10-27-2015, 01:14 AM
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IMO, I believe there are more than 8 RFO of QEII.

I do not think they are/were recycled at least not most of them.

In 1952/3, except for Queen Mary most of the other women were still fairly young. Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone was 69/70.

Princess Anne and Prince Charles were already born so it would have been expected that Anne would receive one and Charles' future wife would receive one and there was always the possibility that the 26 year old Queen would have more children so it would have made sense to have a dozen or two made in 1952/3.

Zara may have received Queen Mary's QEII RFO as a memento of the Queen's grandmother to her granddaughter. (Unless it was given to Princess Anne.)

If Zara did receive the RFO, then Princess Beatrice may have received or will receive QEQM's QEII RFO.

This gift would be different than to her daughter-in-laws or granddaughter in law.

The married in may have to earn a new one, while the granddaughters receive a used one.
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  #552  
Old 10-27-2015, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Why do the people who soooo... want/expect Catherine to have the order, casually dismiss why Sarah did not receive the order?

Sarah was a senior member of the royal family she had 2 children in less than 2 years yet she did not receive the RFO.

In 1989, while pregnant with Eugenie she had 327 engagements.

How many, if any, State Banquets did Sarah attend?

If Sarah did not attend the 'required' State Banquets maybe that could be the answer.

Or it could be the Queen changed her mind about handing them out just because a woman married her son.

The Queen seem to expect more from the women than the men, at least since 1986.

I think the Queen has her reasons but for the life of me I cannot figure out why Sophie has the Dame of Justice Venerable Order of Saint John but Camilla does not.

Sophie received the DJStJ a year of two after her charity work in healthcare.

Camilla does not have the DJStJ and she has been promoting health related charities for over 20 years.

This is a much bigger oversight than a parttime Catherine not receiving the RFO after only four years.
Might the DJStJ issue have to do with the fact that Sophie is the Grand President of St John Ambulance? (And, FWIW, Sophie was also involved in promoting health-related charities prior to her marriage, but I'm not sure if that sort of thing is relevant in this case).
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  #553  
Old 10-27-2015, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The RFO for Catherine could have been painted on porcelain, as an alternative to ivory. Tagua is also an excellent alternative for animal ivory. There are also miniatures with oil-paint on copper, which works excellent. Here you see an example of an alternative: Willem IV of Nassau, Prince of Orange, wearing the Order of the Garter on a miniature for his spouse Anne of Great Britain and Hanover, The Princess Royal. The portrait, encrusted with diamonds, is painted with enamel on copper, which has the same characteristics as glass, so it still has the original strong colours it had in 1734. (Collection of the Dutch Royal House). With other words: the ivory will not be the problem for a RFO, plenty of alternatives.
Let's not be forgetting the modern marshmellow portraits!
The alternatives of copper and porcelain do possess a robust durability more in keeping with ivory.
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  #554  
Old 03-16-2016, 09:35 AM
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I think I have been given the answer to my question as to why Catherine hasn't seen wearing her Royal Family Order? Ivory is the problem.

William has said that he's trying to get rid ivory in the palace, it would be hypocritical of Catherine to wear an order that's made with ivory.

It seems like the RFO's will have to be changed.
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  #555  
Old 03-16-2016, 09:47 AM
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I hope I don't sound cruel when I say this because my intention is the exact opposite.

In regards to existing RFO the ones that are already being worn, we can't give the ivory back to the animal it was taken from. We can't undo the damage that has already been done. But we can make it right in the future. If RFOs aren't "pre made", then there shouldn't be a problem for Catherine to have one made in a different material should she be given one. The same goes for other Ivory items.
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  #556  
Old 03-16-2016, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I hope I don't sound cruel when I say this because my intention is the exact opposite.

In regards to existing RFO the ones that are already being worn, we can't give the ivory back to the animal it was taken from. We can't undo the damage that has already been done. But we can make it right in the future. If RFOs aren't "pre made", then there shouldn't be a problem for Catherine to have one made in a different material should she be given one. The same goes for other Ivory items.
I agree, I think a new version RFO should be made for Catherine. I used to think she just didn't receive it yet, but I think she would have it by now. Now that William is so dead set against ivory, it wouldn't be right for Catherine to wear the order that's made with ivory. I'm not sure she, William and the palace want those headlines.

Now, I'm wondering if a problem would arise; if Catherine wear a new version of the order without ivory, but other members of the royal family continue to wear their orders that's made with ivory.

It would be better if new orders are made under The Queen's reign or wait until Charles ascends to the throne.
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  #557  
Old 03-16-2016, 10:22 AM
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The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

The others who are wearing the ivory orders already aren't married to a person publicly campaigning against poaching and ivory use. Kate is.

The RFOs for Charles will be on a non ivory base probably porcelain. When those are been made, make a Queen Elizabeth one that Kate can use.

New orders aren't going to made in the Queen's reign because most of the people already have one and there are ones that used to belong to deceased royals. Kate and Charlotte are the only potential candidates. Harry's wife potentially

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  #558  
Old 03-16-2016, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I hope I don't sound cruel when I say this because my intention is the exact opposite.

In regards to existing RFO the ones that are already being worn, we can't give the ivory back to the animal it was taken from. We can't undo the damage that has already been done. But we can make it right in the future. If RFOs aren't "pre made", then there shouldn't be a problem for Catherine to have one made in a different material should she be given one. The same goes for other Ivory items.
I totally agree with this. The ones that have already been made and presented that were made out of ivory mean something very special to the ones that have them and they shouldn't be cast aside or replaced. With William's endeavors to eradicate the illegal poaching of animals for their ivory, it does give just cause to stand behind him and all future RFOs to be made of a different material than ivory.

With such a short time remaining in the reign of HM and other than Kate, no others in the wings to be presented with a RFO, the change will probably take effect at the ascension of Charles to the throne. This reinforces my beliefs as I've stated before that at the Chinese state banquet, the loan of HM's wedding bracelet which has never been worn by anyone other than HM, was given on loan to Kate as a means of conveying the message that although Kate's RFO is on hold for the moment, the bracelet loan was a symbolic one to show that HM holds Kate in quite a high regard.
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  #559  
Old 03-16-2016, 10:54 AM
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Kate could have been given the RFO but chooses not to wear it because of the ivory with the Queen's blessing.


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  #560  
Old 03-16-2016, 11:09 AM
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Kate could have been given the RFO but chooses not to wear it because of the ivory with the Queen's blessing.


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Oh please, with all due respect it's a ridiculous excuse.
The RFO can be made especially for her without ivory.
She didn't receive it because shs's not a full time working member of the BRF. Period.
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