The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022

[sophie25]

CPss Mary´s and Alexandra Manleys fathers received the Dannebrog order, not the Elephant who is restricted only to members of the DRF and heads of state!

I know it wasn't the Elephant but my question is why were they awarded an order at all? As I said, some countries seem "order happy" which I think cheapens the award. If I received something like this, even if I was royal, I'd like to think that I'd earned it otherwise it's just a meaningless decoration to throw over an evening dress which I think is a shame.

 

[Ana Von Cleves]

Rfo

I don't think so because the Queen has given Prince Michael the royal victorian order amongst other awards. The reality is that if she wanted PM to get it she would give it to her as it is entirely within her personal gift. It's also very possible that she may give one to all of her granddaughters as a keepsake even though they may never wear it. As I said, the Queen can give order to whoever she wants.

,
I remember seeing a documentary sometime ago. One of the scenes was a palace official opening a cupboard that contained hundreds of awards that could be handed out. The RFO was among them and he infact picked one up and showed it to the camera. If I remember correctly, he said that the tradition was to give the award to only the senior lady in any branch of the family, thus the duchesses but not the wives of the younger brothers.
So maybe Camilla is considered the senior lady in the Wales line and neither Catherine or Harry's future wife will get it anytime soon. The RFOs are returned to the monarch on the death of the recipient.
I know the BRF handles them completely differently than the European ones do and that is entirely each monarch's choice. It could be that Charles will decide to do things very differently that the Queen. After all, he is likely to have a very short reign.

 

[Skippyboo]

I don't believe there are restrictions on the RFOs. The Dowagers Duchess of Kent and Gloucesters had RFO's at the same time that the current Duchesses did. Princess Alexandra isn't the senior lady of the Kent line- she has one. The Queen and Princess Margaret both got the RFO from George V as children.


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[Elly C]

How did you measure the "succes" of the recent tour? The Daily Mail being extactic about Kate's dresses while a week earlier she was slashed down as a Duchess Do-Little? Is that a measurement? The RFO seems not connected to anything, not to seniority, not to merits but just to the very personal consideration of the Queen.

Well of course we can't know what in the Queen's eyes would merit an award, but royal visits overseas have frequently featured in her Christmas messages suggesting she values these highly. Although Kate's outfits got most of the media coverage, she undoubtedly carried off the various engagements with aplomb. So, I would have thought Kate's contribution to making the tour a success would be well regarded.

 

[Dman]

If Catherine haven't received the RFO by now, I would still think the order being made with ivory is the issue. Then again, a new order should be made for her. Should have it by now though. It would be nice to see her receive a knighthood too.

 

[VictoriaB]

If Catherine haven't received the RFO by now, I would still think the order being made with ivory is the issue. Then again, a new order should be made for her. Should have it by now though. It would be nice to see her receive a knighthood too.

But what has she done? At best she is a part time Royal. She has got married and had children, if that merits a knighthood then there should be an awful of female knights in commonwealth countries.

 

[Molly2101]

But what has she done? At best she is a part time Royal. She has got married and had children, if that merits a knighthood then there should be an awful of female knights in commonwealth countries.

I agree - she hasn't done anything to merit receiving either RFO or the GCVO. She's not a full time royal - producing an heir and a spare doesn't simply mean she is entitled to an order or knighthood.

Sophie had to wait 11 years to get an GCVO (and Edward didn't get his KCVO until the year after his wife received hers). Just giving royal great-grandchildren doesn't mean she deserves any award.

I am sure she'll receive both of these things in due course. Perhaps the Queen is waiting so Charles can give her the GCVO.

 

[Dman]

But what has she done? At best she is a part time Royal. She has got married and had children, if that merits a knighthood then there should be an awful of female knights in commonwealth countries.

Not sure her being a part time royal plays a part in this. Catherine has hit the ground in royal duties since her wedding. She has carried out countless official engagements on behalf of The Queen, firm and Commonwealth. She has attended State events, and Catherine has carried out several official royal tours. Catherine has also gained a nice list of Royal patronages that she supports.

It's totally unfair to say "what has she done?" when the evidence is right before our eyes. Yes, she is also busy being a mother to two heirs to the throne. I just think after 5 years of doing a very hard job on the public stage, it's time she's given her due with a knighthood or even given the Royal family Order of Queen Elizabeth II.

Also, it may have taken some time for Sophie to receive the GCVO, but she was appointed with the DJStJ just after 6 years of marriage. At that time, Sophie was doing probably the same amount of work has been doing.

 

[VictoriaB]

Not sure her being a part time royal plays a part in this. Catherine has hit the ground in royal duties since her wedding. She has carried out countless official engagements on behalf of The Queen, firm and Commonwealth. She has attended State events, and Catherine has carried out several official royal tours. Catherine has also gained a nice list of Royal patronages that she supports.

It's totally unfair to say "what has she done?" when the evidence is right before our eyes. Yes, she is also busy being a mother to two heirs to the throne. I just think after 5 years of doing a very hard job on the public stage, it's time she's given her due with a knighthood or even given the Royal family Order of Queen Elizabeth II.

Also, it may have taken some time for Sophie to receive the GCVO, but she was appointed with the DJStJ just after 6 years of marriage. At that time, Sophie was doing probably the same amount of work has been doing.

Sorry Dman, we're going to have to agree to disagree about Catherine's workload. I think it's very light in the extreme and I think she has a very small list of patronages. I am looking at the evidence, that's the point. You think differently and that's OK, we're just applying different criteria.

Say what you will, you will not convince me Catherine deserves any honours and whatever I, or anyone else, says will not dissuade you from your view. We are both entitled to our point of view and neither you nor I are right or wrong.

 

[Osipi]

Y'know what I think? I think all of us are more worried and concerned about who gets what order and when and should they be knighted or whatever. I really doubt that its a big concern to anyone really in the family if, when and how they get a badge of honor.

This is a family that just does whatever it can to promote and support Crown and Country. They're not in it for "awards".

 

[Roslyn]

I almost envy you your rose coloured opinion as to the motivations of the members of the RF. They are just human beings, and human beings who have been brought up to have an inflated sense of their own importance, and I am sure some of them are very concerned about whether or not they get a particular gong.

 

[Dman]

Sorry Dman, we're going to have to agree to disagree about Catherine's workload. I think it's very light in the extreme and I think she has a very small list of patronages. I am looking at the evidence, that's the point. You think differently and that's OK, we're just applying different criteria.

Say what you will, you will not convince me Catherine deserves any honours and whatever I, or anyone else, says will not dissuade you from your view. We are both entitled to our point of view and neither you nor I are right or wrong.

It's okay for us to agree and disagree. I just think it's unfair to think Catherine hasn't done anything worthy of an honor. She has pretty much hit the ground working on behalf of The Queen, firm and Commonwealth since she said "I will" in Westminister Abbey. Now her workload has been a little light because William was in the military and his current job. The point is that Catherine is serving honorably and I think she deserve a pat on the back.

Y'know what I think? I think all of us are more worried and concerned about who gets what order and when and should they be knighted or whatever. I really doubt that its a big concern to anyone really in the family if, when and how they get a badge of honor.

This is a family that just does whatever it can to promote and support Crown and Country. They're not in it for "awards".

I know it's not a contest with the family, but I think it means something to know your work in that kind of environment is appreciated and not taken for granted.

Catherine should at least have the RFO by now. Even if she don't get an knighthood this year, she should be seen with the family order. The order have a way of letting the family member know they're really part of the club. It also let the media and others know of the special relationship between the royal lady and The Queen. All the other senior royal ladies have it, the Duchess of Cambridge should have it too. She now attends State Banquets and Diplomatic Receptions bare of the family order. I think that's wrong.

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

I almost envy you your rose coloured opinion as to the motivations of the members of the RF. They are just human beings, and human beings who have been brought up to have an inflated sense of their own importance, and I am sure some of them are very concerned about whether or not they get a particular gong.

I totally disagree, but that will probably not come as a big surprise.

 

[HRHHermione]

I've often wondered if the issue with the RFO for Kate is that they're made of ivory- she certainly can't be seen wearing anything ivory with William's focus on conservation, and even if they made her a special one not made of ivory- it would draw attention to the fact that other members of the family wear it.

It's a bit of a thorny issue, PR wise.


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[tommy100]

I'm not sure why she hasn't the RFO but maybe the reason Catherine hasn't been given any other honours is to allow Charles to award her them in his reign and then later William.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is just a matter of time. Catherine will receive the Royal Victorian Order, eventually the Royal Victorian Chain and the Most Noble Order of the Garter. Hopefully we will see her as a grey lady wearing the RFO of Queen Elizabeth II, the RFO of King Charles III, the RFO of King William IV and the RFO of King George VII...

It would only be a bit awkward when the King of the Netherlands makes a State Visit and -ignoring the fact that Queen Máxima will receive nothing- he bestows an Order on the Duchess of Cambridge. That means a foreign royal earlier expressed an official sign of royal esteem and approval before the own Queen did so. The Dutch are the ones who act not petty on the British gender discrimination: the late Queen Elizabeth, the late Princess Margaret, the late Diana Princess of Wales and the Princess Royal: all were honoured by the Dutch monarch. So when the Orange-Nassaus cross the North Sea for -an undoubtedly glittering- State Visit, I expect Queen Elizabeth will have granted a RFO to Catherine.

 

[Dman]

The thing is that she is currently serving under Elizabeth II, so she should already have the RFO of Queen Elizabeth II. She'll receive Charles's RFO when he comes to the throne, followed by William's and if she live long enough, then George's. She should have her order by the next State Visit and Diplomatic Reception. If ivory is the problem, why won't The Queen invest in the crown jewelers to create a new setting for Catherine? It's wrong to leave her bare of an order on State occasions after all this time. Her seniority and service should be honored.

 

[Elly C]

With regard to the old chestnut of Kate's relatively limited number of engagements which makes her less eligible in some people's eyes, the Queen, we are led to believe, is very happy with the current situation, so if the order is within her gift, this isn't an issue

 

[wartenberg7]

I know it wasn't the Elephant but my question is why were they awarded an order at all? As I said, some countries seem "order happy" which I think cheapens the award. If I received something like this, even if I was royal, I'd like to think that I'd earned it otherwise it's just a meaningless decoration to throw over an evening dress which I think is a shame.

Well, that´s the way YOU see it. Perhaps the word "order" is misleading? As I´ve explained before, the RFO was originally a mark of the sovereign´s affection, not an award that had to be earned!
So in that sense giving CPsses Mary or Mette-Marit the order at the wedding was a well fitting thing to do as the 2 monarchs knew their respective daughters-in-law a long time before they married their sons - and obviously held them in pretty high regard.
I would never assume the idea the british Queen would think Catherine should first "earn" it before she gives it out. Her sister Margaret was in her earliest 20s when she received the order and had hardly the chance to deserve it due to her age, but still received it anyway (her 14 ! year old cousin Alexandra of Kent wore 2 RFOs at the Queen´s coronation! A 14 year old schoolgirl had had also hardly the opportunity to work for Queen and Country to earn it, too...)
Besides that, giving the RFO to a lady is often regarded as a tradition, a thing you just do because it has always been that way. We cannot compare ourselves, the way we think and things do (along with the lines "do something for me and then I grant something to you") with how things are being dealt with in a reigning royal house!

 

[wartenberg7]

I've often wondered if the issue with the RFO for Kate is that they're made of ivory- she certainly can't be seen wearing anything ivory with William's focus on conservation, and even if they made her a special one not made of ivory- it would draw attention to the fact that other members of the family wear it.

It's a bit of a thorny issue, PR wise.


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If that was really an issue at all, they would have found simply another material (like today´s bearskins are not of bearskin anymore) - enamal for instance...
Or she could use her husband´s late mothers order. I mean it is there and will hardly be destroyed!

 

[Skippyboo]

The orders of the ladies that have passed are all ivory. So if the ivory is the issue, wearing Diana's, Queen Mum's etc order doesn't solve the problem.


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[sophie25]

Well, that´s the way YOU see it. Perhaps the word "order" is misleading? As I´ve explained before, the RFO was originally a mark of the sovereign´s affection, not an award that had to be earned!
So in that sense giving CPsses Mary or Mette-Marit the order at the wedding was a well fitting thing to do as the 2 monarchs knew their respective daughters-in-law a long time before they married their sons - and obviously held them in pretty high regard.
I would never assume the idea the british Queen would think Catherine should first "earn" it before she gives it out. Her sister Margaret was in her earliest 20s when she received the order and had hardly the chance to deserve it due to her age, but still received it anyway (her 14 ! year old cousin Alexandra of Kent wore 2 RFOs at the Queen´s coronation! A 14 year old schoolgirl had had also hardly the opportunity to work for Queen and Country to earn it, too...)
Besides that, giving the RFO to a lady is often regarded as a tradition, a thing you just do because it has always been that way. We cannot compare ourselves, the way we think and things do (along with the lines "do something for me and then I grant something to you") with how things are being dealt with in a reigning royal house!

I am well aware that before the reign of Queen Elizabeth the British RFO was given out automatically to family members and didn't have to be earned. In a previous post I have spoken about that in detail so your not describing something I don't know already. The recipient now though does seem to have to do a certain amount of service for the Monarch before she gets it. That's a change the Queen made not me I'm afraid.

 

[tommy100]

Perhaps in terms of the RFO we need to bear in mind Catherine has only attended one State Banquet so far. Maybe that plays a part kn the decision making? Who knows? To be honest we aren't ever going to know why the Queen does or does not want to do something.

 

[Dman]

The RFO does not have to be earned. It's simply a family order that the senior Royal ladies are given and are worn at State Banquets, Diplomatic Receptions, academy arts galas, foreign Royal weddings, and the State Opening of Parliament. Catherine now attends State Banquets and Diplomatic Corps Receptions. She should already be wearing the order to these events.

If ivory is the issue, is it that hard to create a new setting in the order for Catherine to wear? Even Princess Sofia of Sweden has a new created family order.

 

[tommy100]

Maybe she has already been awarded the RFO but chooses not to wear it as it is made from ivory?? Who knows

 

[Osipi]

I don't think we will ever know for sure as its not information that is released into the public domain. We just watch and see when the occasions arise that she would wear the RFO to.

 

[HRHHermione]

The RFO does not have to be earned. It's simply a family order that the senior Royal ladies are given and are worn at State Banquets, Diplomatic Receptions, academy arts galas, foreign Royal weddings, and the State Opening of Parliament. Catherine now attends State Banquets and Diplomatic Corps Receptions. She should already be wearing the order to these events.

If ivory is the issue, is it that hard to create a new setting in the order for Catherine to wear? Even Princess Sofia of Sweden has a new created family order.

My point was more that if Kate is seen wearing one, there is an excellent chance the press calls her out for hypocrisy because William has stated that even antique ivory shouldn't be worn.

If they were to issue a statement saying that hers is made of a new material- there will be headlines asking why the other ladies are still wearing ivory. It's tricky. William's stance on this has already made headlines- and it would have been even more thorny at the Chinese state banquet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Antiques-Roadshow-expert-blasts-William.html




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[Dman]

My point was more that if Kate is seen wearing one, there is an excellent chance the press calls her out for hypocrisy because William has stated that even antique ivory shouldn't be worn.

If they were to issue a statement saying that hers is made of a new material- there will be headlines asking why the other ladies are still wearing ivory. It's tricky. William's stance on this has already made headlines- and it would have been even more thorny at the Chinese state banquet.

Prince Williams's call to destroy royal ivory treasures 'has echo of the Nazis' says David Battie | Daily Mail Online

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Well, if that's the case, then all of the senior Royal ladies should have their family orders changed. It's not fair for Catherine not to be able to wear hers on these State occasions, but everyone else get to wear theirs. That's just not fair for her senior position.

 

[HRHHermione]

The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

Well, if that's the case, then all of the senior Royal ladies should have their family orders changed. It's not fair for Catherine not to be able to wear hers on these State occasions, but everyone else get to wear theirs. That's just not fair for her senior position.

Then they'd have to announce the change and take an official position on whether the other historical royal ivory pieces should be destroyed- which they never have done.

I've come to think that possibly Kate will never wear the Queen's RFO and maybe will be given other honors instead. I think her first family order will be her father in laws- but that's just my conjecture.


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[Queen Camilla]

Well, if that's the case, then all of the senior Royal ladies should have their family orders changed. It's not fair for Catherine not to be able to wear hers on these State occasions, but everyone else get to wear theirs. That's just not fair for her senior position.

Tradition should be changed to suit one person.

Should the Queen's wishes be ignored to suit William and Catherine?

Is Catherine more senior than the Queen?