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  #381  
Old 12-30-2014, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Princes Sirindhorn of Thailand is Dame Grand Cross of the Victoria Order, if i understand correctly...?

This order as i understand it, is given by the sovereign to recognize distinguished personal services to the sovereign, and not just rewarded as an exchange of baseballcards "if you give me this order, you will get that order from me"

It's the sovereign's prerogative to award orders as they deem fit; that might not be what you *think* she should do, but that's not really relevant...is it?
Can you tell me the "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Prince Bernhard, Prince Claus and Prince Henrik and the apparent lack of these "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Queen Sofía, Queen Silvia, Queen Sonja, etc?



On this level it has nothing to do with services. It is a token of honour. A country visits your country. You prove honour to your guests. The continental royals include the spouse of the visiting head of state, and when it is about royalty, also to the Heir and his/her spouse. The Brits do exactly the same except... female spouses are not "awarded".

Even republican heads of state do this. Richard Freiherr von Weiszäcker, President of Germany, insisted that the only 17 years old Prince of Orange would receive the Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse in the Verdienstorden der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Not that the 17 years old boy had done anything exceptional, but with this the President acknowledged the close connection betwee Orange and its Prince with Nassau (in Germany), the dynasty which has played such an important role on European scale. Just a public and formal token of appreciation, esteem and respect.
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  #382  
Old 12-30-2014, 04:48 PM
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Just to point out, the Order of the Bath is bestowed on the advice of the government, its not a personal order from the Queen.

The Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle, the Order of Merit and the Royal Victorian Order are all within the personal gift of the Queen and she can give these as she sees fit, all other orders are given by the government in the name of the Queen.
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  #383  
Old 12-30-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Can you tell me the "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Prince Bernhard, Prince Claus and Prince Henrik and the apparent lack of these "distinghuised personal services to the Sovereign" by Queen Sofía, Queen Silvia, Queen Sonja, etc?



On this level it has nothing to do with services. It is a token of honour. A country visits your country. You prove honour to your guests. The continental royals include the spouse of the visiting head of state, and when it is about royalty, also to the Heir and his/her spouse. The Brits do exactly the same except... female spouses are not "awarded".
QEII does not have to explain her motivations to me about handing out (or not handing out) personal orders.

You seem to think that because things are done one way by royals on the european continent, that by default the english Queen should do things the same way.
I think that is not the case..

If these forums have learnt me anything it's that you can't compare one monarchy to another, and that you can't assume that because one monarch handles things one way, that all monarchs should do so. Even neighbouring countries/monarchies can have very different traditions and ways. That doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other, it's just different, and that is fine.

You might for a second consider the possibility that if (for instance) the Royal Victoria Order is a personal order given as the English/British Sovereign seems fit; that that might actually be the case, no more and no less than that
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  #384  
Old 12-31-2014, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
QEII does not have to explain her motivations to me about handing out (or not handing out) personal orders.

You seem to think that because things are done one way by royals on the european continent, that by default the english Queen should do things the same way.
I think that is not the case..

If these forums have learnt me anything it's that you can't compare one monarchy to another, and that you can't assume that because one monarch handles things one way, that all monarchs should do so. Even neighbouring countries/monarchies can have very different traditions and ways. That doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other, it's just different, and that is fine.

You might for a second consider the possibility that if (for instance) the Royal Victoria Order is a personal order given as the English/British Sovereign seems fit; that that might actually be the case, no more and no less than that
Every monarchy does things their own way but the discussion also turned to the question why Diana only received one foreign royal Order in all her years as Princess of Wales. I have given a list of visiting royal heads of state during this period and gave factual information that the male consorts of the Netherlands and Denmark have all received British Orders, one of them even four (!) British Orders. No any female consort has received a British Order. These facts are controllable: check, check, check.

The same royal heads of state whom visited Britain however always have included the spouse of the head of state, no matter male or female. Also that I have shown with examples and pictures. Only when i Britain, this standard policy is interrupted. The answer why The Princess of Wales and future consort of the United Kingdom never got a foreign royal Order (except a Dutch one) lies in the policy of reciprocity and the difference the British make between male and female consorts. This is easily to check and is a longstanding policy.

When Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh visited the Netherlands in 1958, both Princess Beatrix and Princess Irene were part of the full program of the long State Visit with so many gala events and ceremonial proceedings. Princess Beatrix got the Royal Victorian Order, Princess Irene got nothing. Can you imagine that before the first gala banquet Orders are bestowed, the royals all together and Princess Irene is conveniently forgotten. Why? Because she was just the Number Two? When Queen Juliana made the same visit vice-versa, she simply included Princess Anne, who was part of the British entourage back then. The answer for Princess Diana's lack of foreign Orders (only one Dutch and one Egyptian -poisoned one, because from Mubarak) lies there.

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  #385  
Old 12-31-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
I think it was Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone. She lived during the reigns of Queen Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VI, George VI and Queen Elizabeth II.
I don't have my books in front of me, but didn't Princesses Marie Louise and Helena Victoria get most of them too? (HV wouldn't have gotten QEII's as she died in 1948.)
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  #386  
Old 01-01-2015, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
I don't have my books in front of me, but didn't Princesses Marie Louise and Helena Victoria get most of them too? (HV wouldn't have gotten QEII's as she died in 1948.)
From what I can see quickly, it seems that the only RFO either lady had was the Order of Victoria and Albert as can be seen below.
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  #387  
Old 01-01-2015, 12:04 PM
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Who ever has the most...wins???

The discussions about who had the most RFO's reminded me of a "conversation" I had some time ago with Edwin King who, as part of his blog, posts "Royals in Medals" - a most inetersting site.

It related to who held the most Knighthoods.

I was reading Edwin's post on the Duke of Cambridge (the elder (1819 - 1904)... a.k.a. Field Marshal HRH Prince George, Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Tipperary and Baron Culloden, Prince of Hanover and Duke of Brunswick and Lünenburg) who was a grandson of George III and maternal uncle to Queen Mary.

The Duke was a career Army man and was the last to hold the Cambridge dukedom before it was revived for Prince William.

Cambridge held no fewer than 10 Knighthoods !!

They were:

KG: Knight of the Garter
KT: Knight of the Thistle
KP: Knight of St Patrick
GCH: Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Guelphic Order
GCB: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath
GCSI: Knight Grand Commander of the Order of the Star of India
GCMG: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George
GCIE: Knight Grand Commander of the Order of the Indian Empire
GCVO: Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order
KJStJ: Knight of Justice of the Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem

Can anyone guess who might have matched this honourific feat??
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  #388  
Old 01-01-2015, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Of course it holds water. It is just the reciprocity during State Visits. The British Queen grants decorations to male spouses and not to female spouses. The continental monarchs do not make such a difference between males and females but all acted reciprocially, so also not giving honours to female royals. Queen Beatrix ignored this and granted Diana an Order. Her mother Queen Juliana already ignored the British policy by granting the same Order to Princess Anne.

- Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands GCB
- Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands GCB, GCVO, GBE, GCStJ
- Prince Henrik of Denmark GCB, GCMG, GCVO
- Prince Claus of the Netherlands GCVO
- Queen Sonja of Norway: no British Order
- Queen Silvia of Sweden: no British Order
- Queen Fabiola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Queen Paola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte: no British Order
- Grand Duchess María Teresa: no British Order
- Queen Sofía of Spain: no British Order

No, it doesn't hold water.

There's nothing in British protocol that says if I give your X this, you have to give my X this and so if you don't give my X this, I'm not giving your X this. It's silly and it absolutely doesn't hold water.

We know the Queen gives out the RFO sparingly. If you want to know why Bernhard got the RFO, it's probably because of his actions during WWII. Maybe Liz feels a bit more for the male Prince Consorts? I don't know.

I can tell you straight up Fabiola didn't accept 99% of the Orders, so there's that one. I don't believe Albert & Liz ever had State Visits, so no order for Paola. There's only been one visit for Silvia, so it's possible had there been a second, she may have received it. No idea why JC didn't receive it. I don't believe MT has been apart of a State Visit as Grand Duchess, so that's a reason for her.

As for Sonja, I think that's the one where you can wonder why on earth she's not received it. In terms of State Visits, she should be fine, but I guess Liz just doesn't think she's done enough to deserve it. Why? Who knows.

Now, I don't have photos or info from these state visits to sit and pick at. I don't follow the British Royals and their gala events close enough, but from what I've seen, this is what I know

Jean & JC visited in 1972 and gave out 4 orders despite only one being given to them. Daisy & Henrik visited in 1974 and Charles got the Order of the Elephant, and I'm assuming that both Daisy & Henrik received the RFO during this visit. Carl Gustaf visited England in 1975 while unmarried. Despite this, both Charles & the Duke of Gloucester received Orders. Dutch visit in 1982 saw 3 orders given out.

So no, I don't think your argument holds water. The Queen does things in her own way and wouldn't it be nice if we could know the reasons for her decisions, but we don't.
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  #389  
Old 05-02-2015, 09:09 PM
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Royal Order Pins

I am not sure who could answer this question. Family Orders and KG are some very nice pins that are given to specific people. The Queen, Queen Mother and probable Princess Margaret have been see wearing the Orders from George V, VI and so on. Once Princess Margaret passed away, what happened to these pins from monarchs that are no longer alive to issue them to someone else, say PM daughter? The pins of the current queen could be given to someone else, but George VI pins really could not. Are they passed on to the descendants of the person that received the awards, and can be worn, or are they returned to the crown and kept, or destroyed and the jewels reused?
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  #390  
Old 05-02-2015, 09:29 PM
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The badges and collars for the knighthoods such as the Garter are returned to the palace after the receiver dies. The family orders are cameos with the monarch on them. David and Sarah probably kept Margaret's orders but Sarah or Serena couldn't wear them since it wasn't given to them


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  #391  
Old 05-02-2015, 10:03 PM
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http://orderofsplendor.blogspot.se/2...rders.html?m=1

This link here might answer a few questions


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  #392  
Old 05-02-2015, 11:37 PM
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I have never seen any. What an absolutely interesting fabulously unique thing about Monarchy. I appreciate the link. I clicked the link and that was the first I ever saw or ever knew about the Royal Family Orders. What a truly special and precious way they honor their family. By wearing them, we all get a chance to notice and be respectful. I don't have a mother, ok, and do not have any maternal influence, so the way these Royals really honor their mother influences is so foreign to me, it is quite fascinating. It's nice to see.
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  #393  
Old 06-05-2015, 08:51 PM
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Prince Harry has been made a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order-
http://www.royal.gov.uk/LatestNewsan...manderoft.aspx

It must mean a great deal to Harry to have his grandmother bestow this honor on him.

I guess Catherine will be receiving an honor soon as well. I'm thinking she already have the Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II and the Diamond Jubilee Medal.
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  #394  
Old 08-30-2015, 02:19 PM
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Why Sarah Ferguson has received the Order of the Royal Family of Queen Elizabeth II?

I've been watching old photos of Sarah Ferguson and I noticed that she did not receive the Order of the Royal Family of Queen Elizabeth II. What was the reason?
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  #395  
Old 08-30-2015, 03:23 PM
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I've been watching old photos of Sarah Ferguson and I noticed that she did not receive the Order of the Royal Family of Queen Elizabeth II. What was the reason?
It's completely at the discretion/choice of the Queen. So only she knows for sure. Neither Di not Fergie rcd. the Order. In hindsight, it makes perfect sense to me. JMO
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  #396  
Old 08-30-2015, 03:28 PM
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Diana received the Royal Family Order, AdmirerUS.

It was never made public as to why Sarah never received the award but I imagine it's very telling of the relationship she had with the Queen. Sophie received it 5 years after marriage and was seen wearing it at Frederik and Mary's wedding in 2004 and Camilla received it sometime in 2007. The date is never made public and so we only know if the women has received when they start to wear it.
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  #397  
Old 08-30-2015, 03:44 PM
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When they received there is no announcement ? Why not ? I think is very important.
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  #398  
Old 08-30-2015, 04:30 PM
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When they received there is no announcement ? Why not ? I think is very important.
The Queen thinks it's very private. She rules. Get it? She actually RULES it.
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  #399  
Old 08-30-2015, 04:35 PM
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I think some of you may also like to note that Sarah, Duchess of York did not get a family tiaria. H. M did give Diana as Princess of Wales this award.
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  #400  
Old 08-30-2015, 04:44 PM
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Diana received the Royal Family Order, AdmirerUS.

It was never made public as to why Sarah never received the award but I imagine it's very telling of the relationship she had with the Queen.
The Queen and Sarah have had and have a very close relationship, and as Sarah said in 2007 and in a interview in 2014 which I can not find now, they still see each other privately.

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Take the 1996 divorce deal she struck with her formidable former mother-in-law, Queen Elizabeth, whom “I still see, love, and admire. “The queen and I always got on well, still do; I uphold everything Her Majesty represents, has given up her life for,” without, she believes, regrets. “It’s her duty. For her country, she’s selfless to the grave.” As for the queen’s mothering skills, she rallies an immediate, ringing defense: “I believe Her Majesty’s done the best job she can. For me, she’s been extraordinary.”
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And I think one of the greatest people I've learnt lessons from is the Queen. The Queen is the most extraordinary person I've ever met in my life. And she is full of forgiveness and I think when I got divorced I chose friendship with the Queen and I'd like to say that she has remained steadfast to that."
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As always, the duchess has nothing but glowing things to say about her former mother-in-law. The queen, Ferguson says, "is the most wonderful, forgiving, nonjudgmental person I know."
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