The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #361  
Old 12-29-2014, 08:29 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
And you know that all these people, foreign royalty, diplomats, etc. having been "dismissed" by QEII, threw their toys out of their cots and refused to recognise her daughter's-in-law, how?
1 + 1 = 2

The foreign female spouse gets no Order? Then the female spouse of "the other side" gets no Order either. That is what is called reciprocity. During Diana's period as HRH The Princess of Wales, the following European monarchs made a State Visit to the United Kingdom:

- HM The Queen of the Netherlands 1982:
Charles was made Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau + Diana was made Lady Grand Cross in the Crown Order (House of Orange Order)

- HE The President of France, co-Sovereign of Andorrra 1984:
Charles was given the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. There was no decoration for Madame Mitterrand. (See: http://img.20mn.fr/5f4DBbBAS5O8X7AP9...tobre-1984.jpg ). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Spain 1986:
Charles was made a Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Carlos III. There was no decoration for Queen Sofía (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Norway 1994:
Charles already held the Grand Cross with Collar of the Royal Norwegian Order of St. Olav. There was no decoration for Queen Sonja (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

That the previous Princess of Wales received an Order from Queen Beatrix was just because of her generosity, her goodwill and her lack of pettiness. Proof: the Queen ordered her stablemaster to look out for a top-breed stud and during the State Visit this expensive horse was handed over to Queen Elizabeth. This was done with decorum: riding servants from the Dutch Royal Mews, in ceremonial tenue, were flown over to give it all cachet. See picture. This illustrated the high esteem Queen Beatrix held (holds) for Queen Elizabeth II. Other State Visits are usually larded with some vases, a picture or a sculpture, not with such an expensive gift. The recpiprocity here was a signed state portrait of the British royal couple in a golden frame... Queen Beatrix knew this but apparently she is not the "one for you, one for me"-type of person.





Another proof, my president made a State Visit to the Netherlands. Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus received the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. Princess Juliana and Prince Bernhard already held this Order. The President gave Princess Margriet and even Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven the French Order of Merit. The Queen acted reciprocally: the President was given the highest Dutch honour, Madame Danielle Mitterrand received the same Order as Diana got. See picture: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/C...1-45223e94be62
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #362  
Old 12-29-2014, 08:44 AM
maria-olivia's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Posts: 4,094
Interesting. Did the Order of the Legion d'Honneur have smaller red sashes for the Ladies nowadays ??
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #363  
Old 12-29-2014, 10:46 AM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 12,506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
There is a separate thread for Diana and her orders.
Diana's Royal Orders
Thanks, I directed my comment to the Diana's Orders Thread.
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
  #364  
Old 12-29-2014, 11:47 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Interesting. Did the Order of the Legion d'Honneur have smaller red sashes for the Ladies nowadays ??
This picture shows Queen Sofía (Grand Cordon Légion d'Honneur) and Doña Letizia (Grand Cordon Ordre national du Mérite) with the same width as their spouses. Madame Sarkozy wears a Grand Cordon (style féminin) in the Muy Distinguida Orden de Carlos III. President Sarkozy wears the collar of that Order.
Reply With Quote
  #365  
Old 12-29-2014, 12:43 PM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post

....(snip).....
- HM The King of Norway 1994:
Charles already held the Grand Cross with Collar of the Royal Norwegian Order of St. Olav. There was no decoration for Queen Sonja (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

....(snip).....

okay, i snipped a lot out of your post, people can read it above, but just gotta ask:
you give a whole bunch of examples to show why Diana didn't get an order, but all the examples show the visit of a head of state and their spouse; Diana was never the spouse of a head of state so as little as i know about the custom of order-giving: i don't think you can compare the spouse of an heir to the spouse of a king

(by the way: your use of the flower-icon especially in posts concerning the British RF, has given it a whole new meaning...)
Reply With Quote
  #366  
Old 12-29-2014, 12:53 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
okay, i snipped a lot out of your post, people can read it above, but just gotta ask:
you give a whole bunch of examples to show why Diana didn't get an order, but all the examples show the visit of a head of state and their spouse; Diana was never the spouse of a head of state so as little as i know about the custom of order-giving: i don't think you can compare the spouse of an heir to the spouse of a king

(by the way: your use of the flower-icon especially in posts concerning the British RF, has given it a whole new meaning...)
In the other thread about Diana's Orders I have explained it more. It is really the reciprocity. When Queen Elizabeth gives the spouse of the Mexican President a British Order, then the Mexican President will do the same to the Duke of Edinburgh (the highest) and to the Prince and Princess of Wales (the second highest).

For an example: King Juan Carlos gave Spanish Orders to the Prince of Orange, his fiancée, to Princess Margriet and to Professor Van Vollenhoven. When Queen Beatrix was in Spain, she gave Dutch Orders to the Prince of Asturias, the Infanta Doña Elena and the Infanta Doña Cristina.

Queen Elizabeth did not even confer an Order on Queen Sofía (!), while she is from the Royal House of Greece and Denmark (!), like her spouse Prince Philip... So Don Juan Carlos conferred the Order of Carlos III on the Prince of Wales and.... the Princess of Wales was left with nothing. In all other royal State Visits Don Juan Carlos has always given Orders to spouses of the King and/or the Heir, and usually also to other royal princes and princesses.
Reply With Quote
  #367  
Old 12-29-2014, 12:58 PM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 3,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is really the reciprocity. When Queen Elizabeth gives the spouse of the Mexican President a British Order, then the Mexican President will do the same to the Duke of Edinburgh (the highest) and to the Prince and Princess of Wales (the second highest).


Queen Elizabeth did not even confer an Order on Queen Sofía (!), while she is from the Royal House of Greece and Denmark (!), like her spouse Prince Philip... There lies the answer, it is all about reciprocity.
But Prince Philip has a lot of foreign order like the Order of the Serpahim (Sweden) the Order of St. Olav (Norway) for example but Queen
Sonja and Queen Silvia do have not britis order.
Reply With Quote
  #368  
Old 12-29-2014, 02:11 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,149
Quote:
Queen Elizabeth did not even confer an Order on Queen Sofía (!)
"Off with her head" then, Duc et Pair... You know you want to !
Reply With Quote
  #369  
Old 12-29-2014, 02:15 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,287
The BRF is the only European family I can think of that doesn't just hand out orders to everyone and their husband.

Some continental royal families give orders upon marriage or even at birth but in Britain one needs to put in years of service to even be considered worthy.

Its the British way.
Reply With Quote
  #370  
Old 12-29-2014, 02:33 PM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 12,506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The BRF is the only European family I can think of that doesn't just hand out orders to everyone and their husband.

Some continental royal families give orders upon marriage or even at birth but in Britain one needs to put in years of service to even be considered worthy.

Its the British way.
Yeah, but it shouldn't take 10, 15 to 20 years to be appreciated and recognized for your service. I'm glad Camilla at least got the RVO after seven years of service. At least the continental royals get something sooner and don't have to go to royal events and State Visits looking so bare.
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
  #371  
Old 12-29-2014, 03:23 PM
MichelleQ2's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 1,076
Does anyone know what is the most RFOs that any royal woman has been honored? I believe QEQM had 3; her father in law, her husband and her daughter. How many did Queen Mary have? she could have 4 - but I assume QEII did not give them out til after her coronation - so Granny many only have 3.

Kate could potentially receive 4. just curious. Wikipedia sites the tradition as beginning with George IV
Reply With Quote
  #372  
Old 12-29-2014, 03:28 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleQ2 View Post
Does anyone know what is the most RFOs that any royal woman has been honored? I believe QEQM had 3; her father in law, her husband and her daughter. How many did Queen Mary have? she could have 4 - but I assume QEII did not give them out til after her coronation - so Granny many only have 3.

Kate could potentially receive 4. just curious. Wikipedia sites the tradition as beginning with George IV
I think it was Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone. She lived during the reigns of Queen Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VI, George VI and Queen Elizabeth II.
Reply With Quote
  #373  
Old 12-29-2014, 03:32 PM
Nico's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,756
Yes you can't beat Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone : 4 ! (Edward VII, George V, George VI, Elizabeth II) even 5 if you count the Royal order of Victoria and Albert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes...ess_of_Athlone

But apparently Queen Mary did receive the RFO from Queen Elizabeth II in 1952, so it's a tie !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...f_Mary_of_Teck
Reply With Quote
  #374  
Old 12-29-2014, 04:33 PM
JR76's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 1,026
The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But Prince Philip has a lot of foreign order like the Order of the Serpahim (Sweden) the Order of St. Olav (Norway) for example but Queen
Sonja and Queen Silvia do have not britis order.

Prince Philip most likely got the Order of the Seraphim by his uncle King Gustav VI Adolf either when Queen Elisabeth got hers in 1953 or during the state visit to Sweden in 1956. Remember that Philip has been around a lot longer than both Sonja and Silvia.
Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
Reply With Quote
  #375  
Old 12-29-2014, 06:48 PM
MARG's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 6,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
1 + 1 = 2
Wow! And here was me thinking that criteria was strickly the purview of the Daily Mail, et al.
__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
Reply With Quote
  #376  
Old 12-30-2014, 05:12 AM
Queen Camilla's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago, United States
Posts: 1,861
Camilla need to be made Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem (GCStJ).

Camilla has worked for healthcare related charities for over 20 years and the Queen has not yet made Camilla Dame of Justice of the Most Venerable Order of St John of Jerusalem. (DJStJ)

Sophie was made DJStJ after only a few years in the family and with very few years working for healthcare charities.

Camilla with over 20 years working for healthcare charities needs to be made a Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem (GCStJ).
Reply With Quote
  #377  
Old 12-30-2014, 05:35 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The BRF is the only European family I can think of that doesn't just hand out orders to everyone and their husband.

Some continental royal families give orders upon marriage or even at birth but in Britain one needs to put in years of service to even be considered worthy.

Its the British way.
They do... to the male spouses.
They don't... to the female spouses.



Proof:
- Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands (spouse of Queen Wilhelmina) was made a Honorary Knight-Grand Commander with star and chain in the Order of the Bath
- Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands (spouse of Queen Juliana) even got FOUR British Orders: Knight Grand Cross in the Royal Victorian Order, Knight Grand Cross in the Order of the Bath, Knight Grand Cross in the Order of the British Empire, Bailiff/Knight Grand Cross in the Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem
- Prince Henrik of Denmark (spouse of Queen Margrethe) got THREE British Orders: Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath, Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George, Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order
- Prince Claus of the Netherlands (spouse of Queen Beatrix), who largely remained out of public life due to longtime illness after 1982, was made a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order

- Queen Sonja of Norway: no British Order
- Queen Silvia of Sweden: no British Order
- Queen Fabiola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Queen Paola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte: no British Order
- Grand Duchess María Teresa: no British Order
- Queen Sofía of Spain: no British Order

Reply With Quote
  #378  
Old 12-30-2014, 12:06 PM
GömdNatt's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cincinnati, United States
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
1 + 1 = 2

The foreign female spouse gets no Order? Then the female spouse of "the other side" gets no Order either. That is what is called reciprocity. During Diana's period as HRH The Princess of Wales, the following European monarchs made a State Visit to the United Kingdom:

- HM The Queen of the Netherlands 1982:
Charles was made Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau + Diana was made Lady Grand Cross in the Crown Order (House of Orange Order)

- HE The President of France, co-Sovereign of Andorrra 1984:
Charles was given the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. There was no decoration for Madame Mitterrand. (See: http://img.20mn.fr/5f4DBbBAS5O8X7AP9...tobre-1984.jpg ). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Spain 1986:
Charles was made a Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Carlos III. There was no decoration for Queen Sofía (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

- HM The King of Norway 1994:
Charles already held the Grand Cross with Collar of the Royal Norwegian Order of St. Olav. There was no decoration for Queen Sonja (!). Result: there was no decoration for the Princess of Wales.

That the previous Princess of Wales received an Order from Queen Beatrix was just because of her generosity, her goodwill and her lack of pettiness. Proof: the Queen ordered her stablemaster to look out for a top-breed stud and during the State Visit this expensive horse was handed over to Queen Elizabeth. This was done with decorum: riding servants from the Dutch Royal Mews, in ceremonial tenue, were flown over to give it all cachet. See picture. This illustrated the high esteem Queen Beatrix held (holds) for Queen Elizabeth II. Other State Visits are usually larded with some vases, a picture or a sculpture, not with such an expensive gift. The recpiprocity here was a signed state portrait of the British royal couple in a golden frame... Queen Beatrix knew this but apparently she is not the "one for you, one for me"-type of person.





Another proof, my president made a State Visit to the Netherlands. Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus received the Grand Cross in the Légion d'Honneur. Princess Juliana and Prince Bernhard already held this Order. The President gave Princess Margriet and even Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven the French Order of Merit. The Queen acted reciprocally: the President was given the highest Dutch honour, Madame Danielle Mitterrand received the same Order as Diana got. See picture: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/C...1-45223e94be62
I'm a bit confused by your reasoning in that it's not Elizabeth who makes the choice of what foreign orders that her children/in-laws receive. We've seen countless state visits in other countries where 2 or 3 or more people will receive an order, even though it's just a President and his wife visiting.

I can't begin to imagine why, so long as she participated in the state visits, Diana only received two foreign orders, but I don't agree with your reasoning. It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it really holds water.
__________________
My facebook fan page: https://www.facebook.com/SignyCullen
Author of fiction novel Farther Side of Away, and non-fiction book about royalty If You're a Princess, Where's Your Crown?
Reply With Quote
  #379  
Old 12-30-2014, 12:27 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 6,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by GömdNatt View Post
I'm a bit confused by your reasoning in that it's not Elizabeth who makes the choice of what foreign orders that her children/in-laws receive. We've seen countless state visits in other countries where 2 or 3 or more people will receive an order, even though it's just a President and his wife visiting.

I can't begin to imagine why, so long as she participated in the state visits, Diana only received two foreign orders, but I don't agree with your reasoning. It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it really holds water.
Of course it holds water. It is just the reciprocity during State Visits. The British Queen grants decorations to male spouses and not to female spouses. The continental monarchs do not make such a difference between males and females but all acted reciprocially, so also not giving honours to female royals. Queen Beatrix ignored this and granted Diana an Order. Her mother Queen Juliana already ignored the British policy by granting the same Order to Princess Anne.

- Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands GCB
- Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands GCB, GCVO, GBE, GCStJ
- Prince Henrik of Denmark GCB, GCMG, GCVO
- Prince Claus of the Netherlands GCVO
- Queen Sonja of Norway: no British Order
- Queen Silvia of Sweden: no British Order
- Queen Fabiola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Queen Paola of the Belgians: no British Order
- Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte: no British Order
- Grand Duchess María Teresa: no British Order
- Queen Sofía of Spain: no British Order

Reply With Quote
  #380  
Old 12-30-2014, 01:14 PM
Lee-Z's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Heerlen, Netherlands
Posts: 2,282
Princes Sirindhorn of Thailand is Dame Grand Cross of the Victoria Order, if i understand correctly...?

This order as i understand it, is given by the sovereign to recognize distinguished personal services to the sovereign, and not just rewarded as an exchange of baseballcards "if you give me this order, you will get that order from me"

It's the sovereign's prerogative to award orders as they deem fit; that might not be what you *think* she should do, but that's not really relevant...is it?
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
orders and decorations, protocol, royal family order


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
90th birthday of queen elizabeth ii albania ascot 2016 assassination autographs best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit birthday birthday celebration coup d'etat crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion denmark duchess of cambridge duke of cambridge fashion poll french italy jewels kate middleton king abdullah ii king carl gustaf and queen silvia king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy myth new zealand norway november 2016 october 2016 picture of the week pierre casiraghi prince charles princess beatrice outfit princess madeleine fashion princess marie princess mary princess mary casual style princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats princess sofia princess stéphanie's daytime outfits prince william queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen margrethe queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen rania fashion queen silvia september 2016 state visit succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats tiara


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:13 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises