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  #21  
Old 07-13-2006, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sm1939
wonder how royal life would of turned out if she had been made Queen of England , could wallis have children???
Wallis could not have children due to OB-GYN problems and cancer of the uterus. If she had become Queen Consort, Elizabeth would have succeeded Edward VIII as Sovereign after his death.
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  #22  
Old 07-13-2006, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Wallis could not have children due to OB-GYN problems and cancer of the uterus. If she had become Queen Consort, Elizabeth would have succeeded Edward VIII as Sovereign after his death.
Correct. Elizabeth would still be queen today. But on the other hand, if he was't forced to abidicate and "marry the woman he loved", like some, she would have been queen.
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  #23  
Old 07-13-2006, 02:02 PM
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I think Wallis would have been a good Queen. Certainly most people, include Winston Churchill, wanted her to be.
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  #24  
Old 07-13-2006, 04:08 PM
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I just saw the 'article' brilliant is all I can say!
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  #25  
Old 07-13-2006, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Actually...no, which was good. When Edward VIII abdicated, her renounced not only his rights to the throne, but also the rights of any descendants he may have had. So, even if he had children with Wallis, they would have no place in line to the throne...whether they were married or not as the other side is a child must be born in wedlock to stand in line. Case in point are some of the Lascelles (through Princess Mary) grandchildren and nephew of the present Earl who wore not born in wedlock and are not in line to the throne.
I think maybe you misunderstood what I was asking or I just didn't word it right.:o If Wallis was queen with her OB problems and unable to reproduce, wouldn't Elizabeth have been considered the heir-presumptive as a child? Or am I off the mark?
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  #26  
Old 07-13-2006, 08:27 PM
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Well, as third in line after her father, the answer is yes but she wouldn't have been hailed as a future Queen until Wallis had passed child bearing age.
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  #27  
Old 07-13-2006, 08:29 PM
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I think maybe you misunderstood what I was asking or I just didn't word it right.:o If Wallis was queen with her OB problems and unable to reproduce, wouldn't Elizabeth have been considered the heir-presumptive as a child? Or am I off the mark?
Her father would have been heir presuptive until his death. I think anyone other than the eldest surviving son of the monarch is considered to be the heir presumptive even if the queen isn't able to bear children for one reason or other.

If Wallis had predeceased Edward and he'd remarried a younger woman, he could have had a child who would have become heir. Even if not, back then it wasn't the done thing to speculate about issues dealing with sex so even if it was known that that the queen or even the king was unable to have children, they'd have kept up the polite fiction of a sibling, niece, or nephew being the heir presumptive. I think that even if George VI had lived to his 70s or 80s and Queen Elizabeth had clearly been past child-bearing age during her husband's lifetime, Princess Elizabeth would have been heir presumptive, not heir apparent, until she became Queen.
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  #28  
Old 07-13-2006, 08:33 PM
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Thanks Elspeth! I think I can follow that.:o :)
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  #29  
Old 07-14-2006, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think Wallis would have been a good Queen. Certainly most people, include Winston Churchill, wanted her to be.
That's quite a stretch. It was very clear when the news became public that the vast majority of the British people were adamantly opposed to a twice-divorced woman becoming Queen.

Whether she might have been accepted as a royal duchess or princess consort to the King is an open question. But the Government refused to consider it since the law was clear that the wife of the King is automatically Queen Consort and nothing else without Parliament's assent.
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  #30  
Old 07-14-2006, 02:18 PM
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Well, from what I've read, most British people didn't actually care much about Wallis, they just wanted to keep Edward VIII and if that meant accepting Wallis then so be it. Indeed, if you look at news reports, there are photographs of huge marches with people protesting to "Keep our King" etc. I think it was the Government that had a problem, and not the people. Winston Churchill is said to have told Wallis he'd ensure she was Queen but I've never seen any confirmation that he did although he was a huge supporter of Edward and so it wouldn't suprise me. But we'll never know. I think it's a shame she never got her chance to shine but we had the Queen Mother as Queen and that was wonderful so maybe it's best history did pan out as it did.
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  #31  
Old 07-14-2006, 02:35 PM
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I can't imagine Wallis as Queen. There was nothing warm or endearing or even loyal about her. She began dating the future king while she was still married! She epitomizes the social climber, IMO. Hang on to what you've got to something better comes along. I agree, BeatrixFan, that the British ppl probably would have accepted her as long as their precious and much adored Edward remained king, but I don't think many people, outside of her close catty little group of friends, cared for her. She was tough, harsh and with a "past", which in those days meant everything. She wasn't even smart enough to at least put on an act for the public and appear demure and withdrawing and "innocent" which is what the public wanted in their future Queen. And actually, she pretty much stole Edward from one of her friends who was involved with him at the time (I think it was one of Gloria Vanderbilts illustrious aunts - on her mother's side). I don't think Wallis would have made a good queen at all and it was karmic justice that she ended up the way she did.
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  #32  
Old 07-14-2006, 02:42 PM
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Well, I think that ceremonially, yes - she would have looked the part and could easily have made done the engagements side of things and the charity work because she did so as Duchess of Windsor. State banquets she could probably handle too but I have a feeling that she and Edward would have been a very formidable couple politically and would have seen their downfall in trying to force certain things. And then there's the war issue - would they have attempted to steer things in a different direction to how the Government wanted to go. But you raise an interesting point when you say she was a social climber Bella, because I believe that as much as she made a point of saying she didn't want to be Queen anyway and the HRH didn't matter, I'm sure it actually did. Hence the quotation she had on a plaque above their bed, "Blessed be their Royal Graces".
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  #33  
Old 07-15-2006, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Well, from what I've read, most British people didn't actually care much about Wallis, they just wanted to keep Edward VIII and if that meant accepting Wallis then so be it. Indeed, if you look at news reports, there are photographs of huge marches with people protesting to "Keep our King" etc. I think it was the Government that had a problem, and not the people. Winston Churchill is said to have told Wallis he'd ensure she was Queen but I've never seen any confirmation that he did although he was a huge supporter of Edward and so it wouldn't suprise me. But we'll never know. I think it's a shame she never got her chance to shine but we had the Queen Mother as Queen and that was wonderful so maybe it's best history did pan out as it did.
I am not sure I agree the British people "didn't care" because when members of Parliament returned to their districts to take the public pulse, the majority of the people were opposed to Wallis becoming Queen.

I think Edward put himself in an impossible position with both the Government and with Wallis. It is clear she was willing to move on with her life and give up any notion of marrying the King to keep him on the throne. But the truth is Edward wanted to abdicate and did nothing to improve his chances of remaining the Sovereign.

Churchill's main desire was to keep the King on the throne, not necessarily any regard for the suitability of Wallis as Queen. In fact, it is said he was the one who quietly suggested to the Cabinet that the King could marry Wallis morganatically and grant her the title of Duchess of Lancaster. But the Cabinet and Parliament refused to pass a bill allowing the King to grant her a lesser status than she would have been automatically entitled to as his wife.

Wallis would not have made a good Queen. She was completely unprepared and unsuited for a life of public duty and convention nor was she particularly enamoured with the British way of life. Edward did the right thing in abdicating the throne to marry her.
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  #34  
Old 07-15-2006, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I believe that as much as she made a point of saying she didn't want to be Queen anyway and the HRH didn't matter, I'm sure it actually did. Hence the quotation she had on a plaque above their bed, "Blessed be their Royal Graces".
This is definately true. She made it clear many times in the years after the Abdication that she had never had any desire or intention to become Queen.

I think she very much was offended by the letters patent denying her the right to be HRH. But as the years went by, she probably didn't care much since they were not living in England and it mattered less in the life they built for themselves in France and America.

I also think her main concern was the Duke not be estranged from his family if at all possible and it wasn't worth fighting over. She was much more concerned with the money than the title.
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  #35  
Old 07-16-2006, 12:15 AM
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Considering their sympathies toward Hitler, I don't know how England would have fared during WWII. Edward is quoted as saying "I didn't think Hitler was such a bad chap" and their visit there and subtle support of Hitler was a little scary. Hindsight is 20/20 but even at the time Adolph Hitler was frightening..
I think as far as style, Wallis would have made a good queen. She had exquiste taste and was very fashion fabulous but as far as substance, she really didn't seem to have much. Throughout their exile they never began or publicly supported a charity and did nothing but go from party to party. England needed substance, and they got it with George (Bertie) and Elizabeth.
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  #36  
Old 07-16-2006, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg
She made it clear many times in the years after the Abdication that she had never had any desire or intention to become Queen.
Of course she's going to say that. What do you think she'd say: I'm bitter and resentful my plans fell apart and I was denied becoming Queen of England! This woman most certainly wanted to be Queen. I think most women who marry the heir to the British throne do so not out of love but out of the fact that they will one day (if all goes accordingly) be Queen. Camilla might be an exception. No disrespect intended, but I hardly doubt that all these rather ordinary dowdy little men who have sat upon various thrones would have landed the lovely intelligent (even strong-minded) brides they had if it weren't for their positions.
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  #37  
Old 07-16-2006, 06:00 PM
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She was not an honorable woman by any means and certainly Edward did England a big favor by abdicating the throne. They both were selfish and greedy with little sense of duty.
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  #38  
Old 07-16-2006, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bella
Of course she's going to say that. What do you think she'd say: I'm bitter and resentful my plans fell apart and I was denied becoming Queen of England! This woman most certainly wanted to be Queen. I think most women who marry the heir to the British throne do so not out of love but out of the fact that they will one day (if all goes accordingly) be Queen. Camilla might be an exception. No disrespect intended, but I hardly doubt that all these rather ordinary dowdy little men who have sat upon various thrones would have landed the lovely intelligent (even strong-minded) brides they had if it weren't for their positions.
I hardly think of David as a dowdy little man - he was quite dashing and charming - and certainly a good looker when he was younger, even when he was older, he had a rogueish appeal.
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  #39  
Old 07-16-2006, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
I hardly think of David as a dowdy little man - he was quite dashing and charming - and certainly a good looker when he was younger, even when he was older, he had a rogueish appeal.
He always struck me as weak. And I guess looks are, as I said in another post, all in the eye of the beholder. I believe he was charming. He certainly was adored by the British people. But I don't think he would have garnered all the adulation hadn't he been the heir to the British throne. And I don't think someone like Wallis Simpson would have batted an eye at him if he had been just an ordinary, albeit charming, fellow.
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  #40  
Old 07-16-2006, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bella
He always struck me as weak. And I guess looks are, as I said in another post, all in the eye of the beholder. I believe he was charming. He certainly was adored by the British people. But I don't think he would have garnered all the adulation hadn't he been the heir to the British throne. And I don't think someone like Wallis Simpson would have batted an eye at him if he had been just an ordinary, albeit charming, fellow.
But I think you're looking at character from the viewpoint of time after which its easier to judge one's character.

But in the 20s, when he was younger and untested, it was harder to see. He was an outstandingly popular Prince of Wales - more popular than Prince Charles has ever been in his life. It was the Roaring Twenties, when young men and women sought to throw off the horrors of the First World War and the Victorian modes of their elders. Substance in character was not a prized commodity. One only needs to read the books of F. Scott Fitzgerald, the great chronicler of the times to see that. (Incidentally, one of the most amusing of Fitzgerald's stories concerns a group of people trying to crash a party where the Prince of Wales was expected)

The Prince of Wales was the epitome of the 'Bright Young Things' as young people were called at the time - he was dashing, good-looking, a charmer. It's what the women prized back then.

As far as Wallis not batting an eyelash at him if he were not Prince of Wales, in charms and looks he was far more well endowed than either her first two husbands and she married them. Character may be another thing entirely, but as I said, character wasn't a prized commodity back then.
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