The Monarchy under Charles

[MARG]

Very interesting. That certainly gave the Netherlands an simple and pleasing "out" for all concerned. When is a Princess not a Princess but a Queen!

The only problem for the UK and many Commonwealth countries is that they actally do have Queen Consorts and yada, yada, yada, . . . . .

 

[tommy100]

the key phrase in all Clarence House have said is 'known as' , to be honest anyone can be known as/called what ever they want. I could be known by my friends and family as King of the Jungle - however this doesn't mean I am legally called or entitled to this.
Camilla can be known as any title or name she or Charles want - making her legally Princess Consort is a different matter.

 

[Cris M]

In my opinion, the Palace will keep saying "its intended that The Duchess of Cornwall will be know as The Princess Consort" for some more years, then they'll start to say "Everything will be decided by the time of the ascension".

And, when the day come, it will be "God Save King Charles III and Queen Camilla".

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

That is very well possible. Just create a fait accompli.
Du moment Camilla is Queen, the opportunity to change things has already been missed.

 

[Rudolph]

Charles needs to stop thinking out loud when it comes to something like Camilla's title. Stop with the PR campaign and just forget it.

He has no idea what the politics of Britain will be when he becomes king and by mentioning Camilla becoming Princess Consort he opens the door to all sorts of left-wing MPs who would love nothing more than to tinker with the constitution.

He may well live to regret the day he ever put this up on his website.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Well the Prince of Wales never spoke about it, I thought but indeed it is on the website. I have no idea if the Prince is aware of that. To me he looks like a man whom is "ruled" by his staff and takes for granted that all is arranged, regulated, communicated, etc. without maybe reading it by himself.

Anyway, I have always hoped that the Queen would once refer to her son and daughter-in-law as "The Prince and Princess of Wales", with that -as by magic- breaking the ban.

 

[Rudolph]

My worry is this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and we end up losing the title of Queen Consort forever.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Let us take a look across the North Sea. In 2013 there was suddenly a female consort again in the Netherlands. There has not been a female consort since 1890 (!) and the Dutch Government has modernized the titles of the Royal House so, that both a male or a female consort bears the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, this to keep in line with the gender neutrality of the succession.

But see... the Court made known it wants to follow "social custom" and notwithstanding the official titulature suddenly Máxima is styled Queen. After a few hiccups and protests here and there by constitutional experts the fait accompli is there. Morale of the story: when King William V speaks about his spouse as "The Queen" than it is there. When the neighbours can do so after 123 years of no Queen-Consorts, the British can do after a relative short intermezzo with Camilla.

 

[wyevale]

I sincerely hope and pray that King Charles iii refers to 'my wife, the Queen', long before his son does !

 

[Rudolph]

Frankly I don't know what to think/believe. I just hope Charles knows what he is doing and doesn't damage the institution.

Prince and Camilla 'do not want her to be called Queen' - Telegraph

On Monday the Government confirmed for the first time that Mrs Parker Bowles would automatically become queen when the prince acceded to the throne unless there was a change in legislation in Britain and in other countries of which the British sovereign was head of state.

Mr Harverson said that Clarence House believed, and the Government agreed, that she could still choose to take on the title Princess Consort instead of Queen without a change in the law.....

"That is incorrect and not in accordance with the Government's advice. Legislation would only be required if it was deemed necessary to confirm formally that she should not have the title and status of Queen." Clarence House believes it is merely convention, and not legal statute, that the wife of the king be automatically queen. Many constitutional and legal experts appear to disagree.
While Mrs Parker Bowles can call herself Princess Consort, should there be violent objections at the time of the prince's accession, legislation in the form of the Civil List Act which takes place at the beginning of any new reign, could ensure that she is formally refused the title and status of a queen.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[....] Clarence House believes it is merely convention, and not legal statute, that the wife of the king be automatically queen.

Interestingly enough the Dutch Court used exact the same words "a convention, a social custom and not legal statute" that Máxima can be called Queen (despite a different legal arrangement).

I tend to agree with Clarence House. After all no one claims Camilla is NOT the Princess of Wales but in daily practice the convention is not followed and Camilla is addressed with another title. That scenario can be repeated when Charles is King. Of course I hope Camilla will be Queen. Often in such shock events things get an own dynamique.

 

[Dman]

Something tells me that Camilla care about her future title but she's not sweating it. She married the man she love and she's there to support him and the royal family.

 

[tommy100]

Interestingly enough the Dutch Court used exact the same words "a convention, a social custom and not legal statute" that Máxima can be called Queen (despite a different legal arrangement).

I tend to agree with Clarence House. After all no one claims Camilla is NOT the Princess of Wales but in daily practice the convention is not followed and Camilla is addressed with another title. That scenario can be repeated when Charles is King. Of course I hope Camilla will be Queen. Often in such shock events things get an own dynamique.

Well thats a good point, just a when Diana died and the media went into overdrive about the flag I wonder if when the Queen dies the media will or will not remember that it was said Camilla would not be called Queen? To me if the fact is 'forgotten' by the media in the immediate aftermath of the Queen's passing and Camilla is referred to as Queen once or twice than the chances are she will be more widely known as Queen for Charles' reign.

IMO its down to how the media and the public react after the Queen's death as to how Camilla is referred in future

 

[AdmirerUS]

I sincerely hope and pray that King Charles iii refers to 'my wife, the Queen', long before his son does !

Correct me if I am wrong, but he does not currently refer to her as the Duchess? I vaguely remember he (and Wills for that matter) refer to "my wife" when speaking ad hoc to people in crowds. As in "my wife is over there," or "I will give this to my wife."

 

[Roslyn]

I find this issue extremely interesting and potentially very entertaining, and I hope I'm around to witness what happens when the time comes.

I've been muddling it thought in my head and have come up with a solution, though there may be fatal flaws I cannot presently see.

Regardless of the statement of intention, as things stand the moment HM QEII dies Charles will become King and his wife will become Queen Consort. Unlike the current situation, there will be no other available title/s available for her to use in lieu. She could elect to break with tradition and not use her husband's style and title, but as things currently stand the only options available for her would be Ms Camilla Shand or Ms Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor. I doubt she's that much of a trendsetter though. Maybe she could go with Mrs Charles Mountbatten-Windsor though I'm not sure how the generic "Mrs" would fare in a competition with "HM". But whatever styles/titles are available to her, "HRH The Princess Consort" will not be amongst them because it is a title that does not exist and it would need to be specifically created.

It will need to be created by her husband when the time comes, which would be rather unseemly bearing in mind that it would involve demoting his wife during a time of national mourning. Perhaps it could be done by the current Queen, though I think it would mean making Camilla a Princess in her own right otherwise I don't think it would be a title she could elect to continue to use after her husband becomes King. Though I cannot imagine HM making Camilla a Princess in her own right, I do think that course would solve the problem of it being addressed immediately following upon Elizabeth's death, and would provide Camilla with an option that is not currently available. (It would also only attach to Camilla, thus not catching future Queens Consort.) A statement could be issued immediately Charles becomes king stating that she will be known as The Princess Consort rather than Queen Consort.

Would the other Realms still have to co-operate? Unless they wanted to go against the wishes of QEII and Charles and Camilla, they might be able to just go with the flow and call her The Princess Consort without having to pass legislation. I'm not sure about that though.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Redesign the POW website. Remove all Q&As.

After a while most people will forgot/would not care except the Di hard fanatics. Most people probably never visit the POW website. It is a few people who want to control the BRF especially Charles.

JMO, sometimes I think the people working at royal.gov are anti-Charles & Camilla and maybe the same people work on both sites.

 

[Dman]

Redesign the POW website. Remove all Q&As.

After a while most people will forgot/would not care except the Di hard fanatics. Most people probably never visit the POW website. It is a few people who want to control the BRF especially Charles.

JMO, sometimes I think the people working at royal.gov are anti-Charles & Camilla and maybe the same people work on both sites.

LOL, I don't think so.

We just have to wait and see what will happen.

 

[Zach]

Coronation Regalia

I have been wondering for a while now what crown Camilla, and eventually Catherine will wear at their respective coronations.
Assuming that Camilla becomes the Queen Consort when HM dies, it seems ridiculous that in this day and age she will have a new consort crown created for her, especially when there are several sitting in the Tower of London. I would think the best fit would be the crown of HM the Queen Mother as it is much more 'english' in it's design than the crowns of Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra.
But it seems that most Queens keep their crown, minus the ermine and arches, if their husband predeceases them. So if Charles died before Camilla, what crown would Catherine wear at her and William's coronation?
What does anyone else think about what crowns Camilla and Kate will use?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Unlike the current situation, there will be no other available title/s available for her to use in lieu. She could elect to break with tradition and not use her husband's style and title, but as things currently stand the only options available for her would be Ms Camilla Shand or Ms Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor. I doubt she's that much of a trendsetter though.

King Charles can simply issue a Letters Patent:

CHARLES THE THIRD by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of His other Realms and Territories KING, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith;

To all to whom these Presents shall come, GREETING;

WHEREAS in testimony of the great love which We bear towards Our most dearly beloved Wife and ever faithful Counsellor, the most honourable lady CAMILLA ROSEMARY MOUNTBATTEN-WINDSOR, We are desirous of conferring upon her a style and dignity appropriate to her rank and station;

NOW KNOW YE that We, of Our especial grace certain, knowledge and mere notion do by these Presents give and grant unto the most honourable lady Camilla Rosemary Mountbatten-Windsor the Style and Titular Dignity of a Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to have and at all times to hold and enjoy the said style and titular Dignity in addition to any other titles of honour shall to her belong or at any time hereafter may belong;

And We do further of Our Royal favor and affection grant unto her, the said most honourable lady, that by the said title of Princess she shall have and enjoy the Rank Place Pre-eminence and Precedence of a Consort to the King which we have already conferred upon Her In Witness & Witness;

Our Will and Pleasure further is that Our Earl Marshal of England or his Deputy for the time being do cause Our Letters or the enrol thereof to be recorded in Our College of Arms to the end that Our Officers of Arms and all all others may take due notice thereof;

In Witness whereof We have caused Our Letters to be made Patent;

Witness Ourself at Westminster the [....] day of [....] in the first year of Our Reign.



Then it will be publicized in the London Gazette:

The King has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm bearing date [....], to give and grant unto the most honourable lady Camilla Rosemary Mountbatten-Windsor the style and titular dignity of a Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The King has been pleased to declare his will and pleasure that the honourable lady Camilla Rosemary Mountbatten-Windsor shall henceforth be known as Her Royal Highness The Princess Camilla, The Princess-Consort.



But of course, as a traditionalist, I simply hope Camilla will just become and be known as Her Majesty The Queen.

 

[Roslyn]

A neat solution at first glance, but would that really be conferring upon her a style and dignity appropriate to her rank and station? By that stage she would be Queen Consort, so making her a Princess of the UK would constitute a demotion, implying that her actual rank and station is beneath that of her husband's. Hence my suggestion it be done during Elizabeth's reign.

So much easier for her to just become HM The Queen Consort.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

My preference is that Camilla "just" becomes Queen indeed.

Your assumption is that this (the creation of Camilla a Princess in her own right, making her HRH The Princess Camilla) is better done under the current Reign because then there is no "demotion" but just a wish that the consort "will be known as" by a title which is her own.

 

[Roslyn]

My preference is that Camilla "just" becomes Queen indeed.

Your assumption is that this (the creation of Camilla a Princess in her own right, making her HRH The Princess Camilla) is better done under the current Reign because then there is no "demotion" but just a wish that the consort "will be known as" by a title which is her own.

Well, yes. I think. I'm not entirely sure I understand your post though. I was just trying to work out a way Camilla could elect to be known as HRH The Princess Consort at a time she would also be entitled to be known as HM The Queen Consort, in the same way she now elects to be known as The Duchess of Cornwall when she is also The Princess of Wales.

 

[wyevale]

I think Queen Camilla is likely to be Crowned using the late Queen Mothers crown, and IF she becomes merely Princess Consort she will wear the circlet from that crown to the Abbey.I think Catherine will also use the same crown when she is crowned.
If Queen Camilla is still alive at that time she may well wear the circlet from Queen Mary's crown [which is a wonderful, elegant thing]

 

[Osipi]

I think Queen Camilla is likely to be Crowned using the late Queen Mothers crown, and IF she becomes merely Princess Consort she will wear the circlet from that crown to the Abbey.I think Catherine will also use the same crown when she is crowned.
If Queen Camilla is still alive at that time she may well wear the circlet from Queen Mary's crown [which is a wonderful, elegant thing]

Its entirely possible that regardless of whatever title or style Camilla uses, she may not actually be crowned alongside Charles in Westminster Abbey. She will, however, need a crown for state occasions and I think the Queen Mother's crown (and circlet) would work wonderfully. Up until now, its usually been the rule that each Queen Consort had her crown made for her and perhaps with an eye to economic temperatures, a new tradition of using the Queen Mother's crown will become a tradition.

 

[Dman]

I'm more interested in whether the senior royals will wear their coronation robes and other regalia at Charles's future Coronation? That would be one beautiful sight if they did.

 

[Jacknch]

I just hope that once in my life-time I get to see a full and proper coronation ceremony with all the regalia, robes, pomp and ceremony that was seen back in 1953 - after that they can tone it down or simplify things all they like!
If Camilla is crowned queen consort, then I suspect the Queen Mother's crown etc will be worn rather than a new set created. If she is not crowned and becomes princess consort, I think she would have the robes and white dress as usual, but with a large diadem such as the one the Queen wears to and from parliament for the state opening.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

I hope no one bends to the "princess consort" business. She will be the wife of the King, which "office" will have nothing to do with anyone Charles was married to in the past.

 

[tommy100]

The only reason the Princess Consort title was dreamed up was because opinion polls in the media started asking the public if they would mind Charles and Camilla marrying, for a while more people said no than yes then the media started asking people if they minded the couple marrying if Camilla didn't get the title Queen. This got more people saying they would not mind them marrying.
The whole idea of Camilla not being Queen has come from the media and sets a dangerous precedent - just as now they give ask people's opinion on William becoming King straight after the Queen died rather than Charles. IMO it was dangerous for Charles' staff to give way in such a way - they should simply have said they wouldn't comment on what titles Camilla might have when Charles becomes King (ironically they won't comment on anything else about Charles becoming King saying its not appropriate to do so while the Queen is alive) - bet they wish they'd stuck to that line now!

 

[KittyAtlanta]

I'll bet they had as well, tommy100. Such a kerfuffle...

 

[cinrit]

If Camilla is crowned queen consort, then I suspect the Queen Mother's crown etc will be worn rather than a new set created. If she is not crowned and becomes princess consort, I think she would have the robes and white dress as usual, but with a large diadem such as the one the Queen wears to and from parliament for the state opening.

She doesn't have to be crowned. She will automatically become Queen Consort when Charles takes the throne.