The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1821  
Old 08-23-2014, 03:56 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
[....] He chose to make her less than, and to give us this power to never accept her.
The Prince of Wales has little say in the matters of titulature. His titulature comes as it is and always has been for an eldest son of a Sovereign, Camilla has not been stripped of or been denied anything. When she is suddenly addressed as Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales, nothing is needed, no decision, no paperwork, nothing. It can happen today. It is entirely possible that Prince Charles loves it when his darling Camilla holds his style, dignity and title(s) but others have a say in this matter too, maybe even Camilla herself.... In retropect it was a smart move, to get the nasty thorn out of the flesh. I hope that Camilla will just be Queen, like I hope that James and Louise will just be Prince and Princess but sometimes things just turn out a little different in practice. Maybe Camilla loves her title The Duchess of Cornwall because it gives her an own identity, not just "the wife of...".

I would not mind Camilla being styled HRH The Duchess of Lancaster as an alternative to HRH The Princess Consort. The Duchy of Lancaster is to the Sovereign what the Duchy of Cornwall is to the Heir.

__________________

Reply With Quote
  #1822  
Old 08-23-2014, 05:11 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 9,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I think the situation will be that when Charles is King, Camilla is Queen, like Camilla is The Princess of Wales now. But... she "will be known as" The Princess Consort, very much alike she "is know as" The Duchess of Cornwall" now.

In both cases no any legislation is required. Simply another style is used notwithstanding the fact that she will be the rightful Queen as she is the rightful Princess of Wales. It is the same mechanism as with the children of Prince Edward: both the Viscount Severn as well his sister are HRH Prince James of Wessex as well HRH Princess Louise of Wessex but "are known as" Lord James and Lady Louise notwithstanding their rightful title, style and dignity as a Prince(ss) of the United Kingdom.
There is a difference here. When Camilla married Charles, she took on all of the feminine aspects of his titles. By using the title The Duchess of Cornwall, she takes that from his title of Duke of Cornwall. When Charles becomes King, he will no longer be a Prince of anything. The title (and style) of Princess Consort will be unique to only Camilla.
__________________

__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.”
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #1823  
Old 08-23-2014, 05:51 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I think the situation will be that when Charles is King, Camilla is Queen, like Camilla is The Princess of Wales now. But... she "will be known as" The Princess Consort, very much alike she "is know as" The Duchess of Cornwall" now.

In both cases no any legislation is required. Simply another style is used notwithstanding the fact that she will be the rightful Queen as she is the rightful Princess of Wales. It is the same mechanism as with the children of Prince Edward: both the Viscount Severn as well his sister are HRH Prince James of Wessex as well HRH Princess Louise of Wessex but "are known as" Lord James and Lady Louise notwithstanding their rightful title, style and dignity as a Prince(ss) of the United Kingdom.
I agree 100%, I can't see Charles wanting parliament to pass all the legislation etc to strip Camilla of being Queen. I think it will be as now, she will hold the title Queen as she is married to the King but will choose to use a different title, IMO much may depend on the media and public of the time, if they freely call her Queen then she will be known as such, if a 'fuss' is created over her title in the first days of the new reign then the Princess Consort title will be used.
Reply With Quote
  #1824  
Old 08-23-2014, 05:55 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
There is a difference here. When Camilla married Charles, she took on all of the feminine aspects of his titles. By using the title The Duchess of Cornwall, she takes that from his title of Duke of Cornwall. When Charles becomes King, he will no longer be a Prince of anything. The title (and style) of Princess Consort will be unique to only Camilla.
And thats the ironic thing, Camilla will probably end up holding a higher title in her own right than Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, than Diana would have and than Catherine may so as to appease those who think she doesn't deserve the title Queen.
Reply With Quote
  #1825  
Old 08-23-2014, 06:05 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Catherine isn't in the same position as Camilla. Camilla's past is totally different from Catherine's past. So, no, none of this applies to Catherine.
Formally Catherine will be in the same position as Camilla as wife to the future Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, eventually Prince of Wales and as wife to the future King. Note that nothing, really nothing, has been set into change since the engagement of the Prince with Camilla one decade ago. It really depends on the very day that Charles becomes King to know what will happen.
Reply With Quote
  #1826  
Old 08-23-2014, 06:16 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 11,048
What is being missed is that Camilla can use the title Duchess of Cornwall because she is married to the Duke of Cornwall. Louise and James can use Lady and Lord because those are also the titles of the children of earls (as for whether they are actually HRH Prince/Princess is another debate entirely and one that we have had on this board many times with no consensus being reached) but...

when Charles becomes King he won't have the title of Prince so Camilla will cease to be eligible to use any of his titles such as Prince, Duke, Earl, Lord etc and will only have the one from her marriage - that of Queen.

It is at that point that the parliament of the UK, and maybe some other realms* will have to strip her of the highest title in the land for a woman - that of Queen (whether Consort or Regnant) so that a new title can be created for her.

That would be a great start to the reign - here Charles - the first thing you have to do, before you have been king for a day even, will be to strip your wife of the legal status of being your wife as she won't be allowed to take all your titles (could even raise the very issue of the legality of the marriage by denying her the right to all her husband's titles - just as the legitimacy of Andrew's impending birth was raised if he was only to have the surname Windsor which is why the Mountbatten-Windsor name came about). It would have to be hurriedly passed - and yes PM Blair or one of his spokesmen said as much in 2005 - that legislation would be required to strip Camilla of the title of Queen Consort for her to be Princess Consort.

It isn't as simple as saying 'she will be known as' because she will have a higher title and would have to have a new title created for her.

As she would only be a Princess she wouldn't be crowned as only Kings and Queens get crowned. She would simply sit in the Abbey as a spectator - possibly in one of the galleries rather than beside her husband as she won't be being crowned.
*Australia won't have to do so as the only member of the royal family with any legal titles in Australia is the monarch - the others are allowed to use, and are acknowledged by, their British titles but those titles aren't Australian titles.
Reply With Quote
  #1827  
Old 08-23-2014, 06:17 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
There is a difference here. When Camilla married Charles, she took on all of the feminine aspects of his titles. By using the title The Duchess of Cornwall, she takes that from his title of Duke of Cornwall. When Charles becomes King, he will no longer be a Prince of anything. The title (and style) of Princess Consort will be unique to only Camilla.
The precedents are of course Prince Albert and Prince Philip.
Albert was made Prince-Consort and Philip was granted the style and titular dignity of a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in his very own right (Letters Patent 1957). After her accession the young Queen Elizabeth II already announced that her spouse was to have "place, pre-eminence and precedence" next to her "on all occasions and in all meetings". I can see the new King doing very the same, when Camilla would become The Princess-Consort or follow his mother's example and create his darling Camilla a Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right with a dukedom: HRH The Princess Camilla, The Duchess of Lancaster.
Reply With Quote
  #1828  
Old 08-23-2014, 06:25 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 11,048
The fact is that as a Queen Consort he wouldn't need to do anything of this - they are automatic to the wife of the King but giving her a lesser title raises the very issue of the legitimacy of her situation.

The actual terminology around the 'pre-eminence' statement went further and included 'except when provided by law' as there are times when Charles as the heir apparent does actually take precedence over his father e.g. in the House of Lords when the Duke of Cornwall takes precedence over the Duke of Edinburgh.

Victoria and Elizabeth, in issuing those statements, were simply stating the situation that is automatic for a Queen Consort but not for a lesser title holder such as a Princess - afterall that position is saying that the marriage isn't an equal marriage.
Reply With Quote
  #1829  
Old 08-23-2014, 10:25 AM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 13,337
Is this true?

"As most people know, at the time of their wedding in 2005, it was announced that upon the Prince of Wales’s accession to the throne, Camilla would take on the title of HRH The Princess Consort instead of the traditional title of HM The Queen.

Primarily taken to quell the hostility to the couple, it was a message that went widely unchallenged by the then ambivalent press and public, with many asserting it to be the right move.

Almost ten years on and whilst public opinion has now turned in favour of her becoming Queen, Clarence House’s position persists: Camilla will become Princess Consort.

Quite unnoticed in the press (and by me in my research until recently), the legality of the matter was quietly settled in a series of reports and statements from Parliament, as well as by Clarence House in statements that have been lost in the mists of time.

Based on this finding, I’m now able to confirm what I’ve suspected for a long time, that the title of Queen Consort is not actually established by law per se.

Instead, its usage is established through custom and precedent and, according to officials, there will therefore be no need for a change in law or introduction of a new law to give Camilla the status of Princess Consort instead of Queen; rather in the same way as she is currently known as Duchess of Cornwall whilst technically being Princess of Wales, she will be known as Princess Consort instead."

Will Camilla actually be Princess Consort?-
Will Camilla actually be Princess Consort?
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
  #1830  
Old 08-23-2014, 10:43 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
[.....] rather in the same way as she is currently known as Duchess of Cornwall whilst technically being Princess of Wales, she will be known as Princess Consort instead."
That is the most generally expected situation, when the Palace sticks to the idea of a Princess Consort. Meaning that she IS the Princess of Wales and later she IS the Queen but is "known as" with another title.

In the Netherlands they have turned the things the other way. In an attempt to make the titles of the Royal House gender neutral, since the succession is gender neutral as well, the title of the consort, whether male or female, is Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands. The lawmaker found it "not desirable" that a male consort has the title "King" but then the consequence is that a female consort can not have the title "Queen".

Now the Dutch have found a loophole. Máxima is, by law, HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands, as consort to the King. By "social custom" howver she can be adressed as "Majesty" and with the title "Queen Máxima"... Her official titulature is not HM Queen Máxima of the Netherlands but: HM Queen Máxima, Princess of the Netherlands....

With other words, titles are like a bucket of slimy eels. They can wriggle it all way up and down to find a working solution. Queen Máxima is named by a title she does not have by law. Camilla is not named by a title she has by law....

Reply With Quote
  #1831  
Old 08-23-2014, 11:09 AM
MARG's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 6,872
Very interesting. That certainly gave the Netherlands an simple and pleasing "out" for all concerned. When is a Princess not a Princess but a Queen!

The only problem for the UK and many Commonwealth countries is that they actally do have Queen Consorts and yada, yada, yada, . . . . .
__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
Reply With Quote
  #1832  
Old 08-23-2014, 11:24 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,563
the key phrase in all Clarence House have said is 'known as' , to be honest anyone can be known as/called what ever they want. I could be known by my friends and family as King of the Jungle - however this doesn't mean I am legally called or entitled to this.
Camilla can be known as any title or name she or Charles want - making her legally Princess Consort is a different matter.
Reply With Quote
  #1833  
Old 08-23-2014, 11:32 AM
Cris M's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niterói, Brazil
Posts: 847
In my opinion, the Palace will keep saying "its intended that The Duchess of Cornwall will be know as The Princess Consort" for some more years, then they'll start to say "Everything will be decided by the time of the ascension".

And, when the day come, it will be "God Save King Charles III and Queen Camilla".
Reply With Quote
  #1834  
Old 08-23-2014, 11:40 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,165
That is very well possible. Just create a fait accompli.
Du moment Camilla is Queen, the opportunity to change things has already been missed.
Reply With Quote
  #1835  
Old 08-23-2014, 12:02 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,865
Charles needs to stop thinking out loud when it comes to something like Camilla's title. Stop with the PR campaign and just forget it.

He has no idea what the politics of Britain will be when he becomes king and by mentioning Camilla becoming Princess Consort he opens the door to all sorts of left-wing MPs who would love nothing more than to tinker with the constitution.

He may well live to regret the day he ever put this up on his website.
Reply With Quote
  #1836  
Old 08-23-2014, 12:20 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,165
Well the Prince of Wales never spoke about it, I thought but indeed it is on the website. I have no idea if the Prince is aware of that. To me he looks like a man whom is "ruled" by his staff and takes for granted that all is arranged, regulated, communicated, etc. without maybe reading it by himself.

Anyway, I have always hoped that the Queen would once refer to her son and daughter-in-law as "The Prince and Princess of Wales", with that -as by magic- breaking the ban.
Reply With Quote
  #1837  
Old 08-23-2014, 12:29 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,865
My worry is this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and we end up losing the title of Queen Consort forever.
Reply With Quote
  #1838  
Old 08-23-2014, 01:33 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 7,165
Let us take a look across the North Sea. In 2013 there was suddenly a female consort again in the Netherlands. There has not been a female consort since 1890 (!) and the Dutch Government has modernized the titles of the Royal House so, that both a male or a female consort bears the title Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, this to keep in line with the gender neutrality of the succession.

But see... the Court made known it wants to follow "social custom" and notwithstanding the official titulature suddenly Máxima is styled Queen. After a few hiccups and protests here and there by constitutional experts the fait accompli is there. Morale of the story: when King William V speaks about his spouse as "The Queen" than it is there. When the neighbours can do so after 123 years of no Queen-Consorts, the British can do after a relative short intermezzo with Camilla.

Reply With Quote
  #1839  
Old 08-23-2014, 02:50 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,539
I sincerely hope and pray that King Charles iii refers to 'my wife, the Queen', long before his son does !
Reply With Quote
  #1840  
Old 08-23-2014, 03:38 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,865
Frankly I don't know what to think/believe. I just hope Charles knows what he is doing and doesn't damage the institution.

Prince and Camilla 'do not want her to be called Queen' - Telegraph
Quote:
On Monday the Government confirmed for the first time that Mrs Parker Bowles would automatically become queen when the prince acceded to the throne unless there was a change in legislation in Britain and in other countries of which the British sovereign was head of state.

Mr Harverson said that Clarence House believed, and the Government agreed, that she could still choose to take on the title Princess Consort instead of Queen without a change in the law.....

"That is incorrect and not in accordance with the Government's advice. Legislation would only be required if it was deemed necessary to confirm formally that she should not have the title and status of Queen." Clarence House believes it is merely convention, and not legal statute, that the wife of the king be automatically queen. Many constitutional and legal experts appear to disagree.
While Mrs Parker Bowles can call herself Princess Consort, should there be violent objections at the time of the prince's accession, legislation in the form of the Civil List Act which takes place at the beginning of any new reign, could ensure that she is formally refused the title and status of a queen.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british, camilla, charles iii, charles of wales, coronation, crown jewels, duchess of cornwall, legacy, prince charles, prince of wales, queen camilla, titles, william v


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Monarchy after Elizabeth II ysbel British Royals 515 09-28-2017 10:22 PM
Monarchy vs Republic marian Royalty Past, Present, and Future 393 08-14-2017 06:32 AM
The Monarchy in Greece Fireweaver The Royal Family of Greece 309 10-31-2016 06:54 PM
The Monarchy And The Media Alexandria Royal House of Norway 12 04-08-2004 05:06 PM




Popular Tags
antony armstrong-jones best outfit birthday carl gustaf chris o'neill crown princess mary crown princess victoria current events december denmark earl of snowdon general news grand duke jean hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume historical infanta cristina infanta leonor infanta sofia iñaki urdangarín king felipe king felipe vi king philippe king willem-alexander letizia liechtenstein monarchy news picture of the week prince alexander prince carl philip prince daniel prince emmanuel prince felix prince gabriel prince harry prince nicholas prince oscar princess beatrice princess claire of luxembourg princess estelle princess leonore princess madeleine princess mary daytime fashion princess of asturias princess sofia princess sofias hats princess victoria queen elizabeth ii queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen margerthe queen mathilde queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen silvia queen sofia rohan family state visit stephanie sweden swedish royal family the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion victoria



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:04 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises