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  #1801  
Old 08-22-2014, 07:06 PM
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I don't there's anything saying that Camilla can't be Queen Consort. The Palace said that when Charles comes to the throne, Camilla would be titled Princess Consort. A PR tactic of course and it worked. The Palace and Clarence House current position is that it will be her title when Charles is King.

I think it really don't matter anyway. Princess Consort or Queen, people will get used to it after a while. No matter what, Camilla will be Queen, even with a different title. She's the current Princess of Wales but it's not the title that she officially go by.
I think that some people on the forums think that if the DOCornwall is called anything other than the Princess Consort (it used to be on the royal.gov site that she would be so called) it will mean the Palace has gone back on its word. I'm not arguing - I am just saying that some people her believe that and I understand why.
When the Queen issued the writ (or whatever) that made Anne The Princess Royal, we called her that going forward.
I think all of us here on the forums have an opinion about The DOCornwall's future title.
IMHO, it will be what it will be, the vast majority of people won't much care and we can argue it until we turn purple here on the Forums. It just won't change what Charles chooses to do when he is King.
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  #1802  
Old 08-22-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Catherine isn't in the same position as Camilla. Camilla's past is totally different from Catherine's past. So, no, none of this applies to Catherine.

So what you're saying is that because Camilla had an affair with a man 20 years ago - while that man's wife was having affairs as well for the record - she should be treated as less than someone else in her position who didn't have an affair?

That having an affair is enough to ruin a woman's reputation forever? That she should not be treated as her husband's wife? That parliament should pass legislature specifically for her to strip her of the right to hold a title that she gains through her marriage just because 20 years ago she had an affair with a man?

And you're okay with it because the title HRH Princess Consort sounds good?

That's ludicrous. That's ridiculous. That's sexist.
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  #1803  
Old 08-22-2014, 07:32 PM
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Beautifully said Ish.
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  #1804  
Old 08-22-2014, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
So what you're saying is that because Camilla had an affair with a man 20 years ago - while that man's wife was having affairs as well for the record - she should be treated as less than someone else in her position who didn't have an affair?

That having an affair is enough to ruin a woman's reputation forever? That she should not be treated as her husband's wife? That parliament should pass legislature specifically for her to strip her of the right to hold a title that she gains through her marriage just because 20 years ago she had an affair with a man?

And you're okay with it because the title HRH Princess Consort sounds good?

That's ludicrous. That's ridiculous. That's sexist.
Agreed - no one is taking anything away from Charles - and he was the other half of the equation. Sexist.
But I still think that what WE THINK does not matter. This hand of cards will play out as it is played out.
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  #1805  
Old 08-22-2014, 07:42 PM
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But the fact Charles and his advisors went down the road of Princess Consort was for damage control. There are many, many people in Britain that don't want Camilla as Queen. Its the same reason Camilla doesn't style herself as PoW.

If she were more palatable to the public none of this would have been necessary in the first place.
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  #1806  
Old 08-22-2014, 08:11 PM
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The main worry is a that the tradition of a Kings wife being called Queen could be lost forever.
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  #1807  
Old 08-22-2014, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
So what you're saying is that because Camilla had an affair with a man 20 years ago - while that man's wife was having affairs as well for the record - she should be treated as less than someone else in her position who didn't have an affair?

That having an affair is enough to ruin a woman's reputation forever? That she should not be treated as her husband's wife? That parliament should pass legislature specifically for her to strip her of the right to hold a title that she gains through her marriage just because 20 years ago she had an affair with a man?

And you're okay with it because the title HRH Princess Consort sounds good?

That's ludicrous. That's ridiculous. That's sexist.
You totally got me wrong. I think Camillia should be crowned Queen or Princess Consort. I'm just stating the reasons why It's been officially stated why this debated continues. I'm in no way sexist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
But the fact Charles and his advisors went down the road of Princess Consort was for damage control. There are many, many people in Britain that don't want Camilla as Queen. Its the same reason Camilla doesn't style herself as PoW.

If she were more palatable to the public none of this would have been necessary in the first place.
I agree.

I also wanted to point out to everyone that just because I think the title "HRH The Princess Consort" sounds good and have a nice ring to it, does not mean I think that's the only title Camilla should have. I really like the sound of that title; just like the title The Princess Royal.


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Originally Posted by royalistbert View Post
The main worry is a that the tradition of a Kings wife being called Queen could be lost forever.
I don't think that would happen.
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  #1808  
Old 08-22-2014, 09:01 PM
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Back to the type of Monarchy Charles will reign, I truly believe he will oversee a really tight ship. He will have very few "hanger-on" individuals. I believe he knows exactly how he wants his country to be directed and will strive to see it happen. That being said, I don't believe this will happen for another good ten plus years.
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  #1809  
Old 08-22-2014, 09:02 PM
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When Charles becomes King, Camilla will be crowned Queen.
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  #1810  
Old 08-22-2014, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
When Charles becomes King, Camilla will be crowned Queen.

Sure, but this thread has given me a reason to live--just to see what happens. 😜
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  #1811  
Old 08-22-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Winnie View Post
Back to the type of Monarchy Charles will reign, I truly believe he will oversee a really tight ship. He will have very few "hanger-on" individuals. I believe he knows exactly how he wants his country to be directed and will strive to see it happen. That being said, I don't believe this will happen for another good ten plus years.
He's going to make a great King indeed. His reign isn't as far off as it used to be though.
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  #1812  
Old 08-22-2014, 10:33 PM
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Sure, but this thread has given me a reason to live--just to see what happens. 😜
That's funny!
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  #1813  
Old 08-23-2014, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by casualfan View Post
Sure, but this thread has given me a reason to live--just to see what happens. 😜
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That's funny!
I'm waiting for all the outraged commentary.
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  #1814  
Old 08-23-2014, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
He's going to make a great King indeed. His reign isn't as far off as it used to be though.

His reign has been a heartbeat away for 62 years now. He is no closer to being King than he was on 7 February 1952.
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  #1815  
Old 08-23-2014, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
You totally got me wrong. I think Camillia should be crowned Queen or Princess Consort. I'm just stating the reasons why It's been officially stated why this debated continues. I'm in no way sexist.
The problem is that the title Princess Consort itself is sexist. You yourself may not normally be sexist, but supporting is a moment of sexism.

You have said on several occasions that you support the idea of Camilla being crowned Princess Consort, including in the post I've quoted. That means that you're supporting a sexist title.
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  #1816  
Old 08-23-2014, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Catherine isn't in the same position as Camilla. Camilla's past is totally different from Catherine's past. So, no, none of this applies to Catherine.
Wrong! Creating, in law, the title of Princess Consort changes the British Royal Family forever. It sets a precedent that will turn to the proverbial when there is any Official Statement to the effect that it will apply to Camilla only.

Question: Is the UK a signatory of the UN Convention of the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
I'm waiting for all the outraged commentary.
Why on earth would you want to indulge in troll -like behaviour. Most people come here to participate in the discussion, and yes there are definitely "For" and "Against" parties on this board. But, there are also a large number of "I don't Knows" and "Not quite Sure's" that read and learn and maybe take a stand for or against.

Trolls contribute nothing but anger and dissention which is, of course, their raison d'Ítre.
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  #1817  
Old 08-23-2014, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Wrong! Creating, in law, the title of Princess Consort changes the British Royal Family forever. It sets a precedent that will turn to the proverbial when there is any Official Statement to the effect that it will apply to Camilla only.



Question: Is the UK a signatory of the UN Convention of the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women? [/b]

If I'm reading the UN's page on the treaty right then yes, they have.

Of HM's realms, Antigua and Barbuda, the Bahamas, Papua New Guinea, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, the Solomon Islands, and Tuvalu have all just ratified it, while Australia, Barbados, Belize, Canada, Grenada, Jamaica, New Zealand, and the UK have all signed and ratified it.



[b]Why on earth would you want to indulge in troll -like behaviour. Most people come here to participate in the discussion, and yes there are definitely "For" and "Against" parties on this board. But, there are also a large number of "I don't Knows" and "Not quite Sure's" that read and learn and maybe take a stand for or against.



Trolls contribute nothing but anger and dissention which is, of course, their raison d'Ítre.

I don't think Giraffe is trolling here. She's merely saying that she's looking forward to witnessing the insanity that this board and those like it will be when the day comes. Either way, Queen or Princess Consort, some people are going to be very vocal in their disapproval. Personally, even though I can't guarantee that I won't be one of the voices in that foray, I have to admit that for an observer it will probably be entertaining. People fighting on the Internet about things that are completely out of their control often can be.
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  #1818  
Old 08-23-2014, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
The problem is that the title Princess Consort itself is sexist. You yourself may not normally be sexist, but supporting is a moment of sexism.

You have said on several occasions that you support the idea of Camilla being crowned Princess Consort, including in the post I've quoted. That means that you're supporting a sexist title.
Well, I most definitely don't want to support anything that would come off as "sexist" but the title "HRH The Princess Consort" came from the palace with The Queen, Prince of Wales & Duchess of Cornwall and palace officials approval. May have been a PR tactic but they are the ones that laid that idea out there...plain and simple. Then I guess they're all "sexist" or support sexism or at least didn't consider how the title would come off to others.

Very interesting conversation.
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  #1819  
Old 08-23-2014, 03:13 AM
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I think the title was one of those things that a PR team came up with in an attempt to appease the masses and make them accept the marriage.

I don't think that they really considered the implications of the title or what would be necessary to actually make it happen. The family isn't always the best at PR and I wouldn't be surprised if they said it with the expectation that after the wedding we all would forget about it.

The problem with the title is more than just the sexism though.

It creates a really bad precedent. It calls into question whether any future wife of a British King will be Queen.

It creates morganatic marriage in a realm that in more than 1,000 years of history has never had it. If Henry VIII can have 6 separate women as Queen - 1 who was his brother's widow, 1 who was his mistress during his previous marriage, and 1 who was not only his mistress previously but also the sister of another of his mistresses - then Charles should be allowed to have his second wife as his Queen. Seriously. We are being less accepting today than they were 500 years ago.

In order for Camilla to not be Queen, then Parliament has to pass legislature stripping her of that title. Charles can't just say "she's not Queen," Parliament has to do it. It is ridiculous to have at least one parliament - and it's entirely possible that every realm will have to pass such legislature - passing legislature that will affect literally one person just because some people aren't over an affair that happened 20 years ago.

It says to Camilla that she isn't good enough. That all the work she has done as Charles' wife isn't enough. I'm not a big Diana fan, I admit that, but I do respect the work that she did as a Princess. However, I don't think that just because she was good at being a Princess we have to punish Camilla for not being Diana - Camilla is good in her own right. What's more is that we would be punishing her for having an affair with a man who had decided his marriage was in a sense over. We aren't punishing him for it, we didn't punish Diana who also had affairs, we didn't punish the men who Diana had her affairs with. Only Camilla is singled out in this. Even if I thought that Camilla deserved to be punished in some way for her behaviour - and in turn, I would also think that Charles, Diana, and James Hewitt would also deserve punishment - I don't agree that stripping her of her title is the right way to go about it.

I'm reminded of Margaret Atwood's [i]Handmaid's Tale[/b] in this attitude. There women are treated as less than, and divorce is made illegal. The narrator is a woman who prior to the start of the book was married to a man who had been divorced and, as shown in her memories, through the course of the revolution that created the dystopian world the book is set in the narrator loses her position as her husband's wife. She starts off as... Well the book's equivalent of Mrs. John Smith, then ends up being forced to be Miss Jane Doe again because the state no longer recognizes her marriage. Stripping Camilla of the title Queen is that kind of mentality. Sure she might get another title and might still legally be Charles' wife, but not allowing her to use the title of Queen is essentially saying to her that we see her as nothing more than the mistress, even after all this time.

Even if she's simply made a Princess in her own right and uses it over the title Queen while still holding that title she's still being diminished, pushed into that position of mistress again and again. In a way, we're doing it now by not accepting her as Princess of Wales, although I understand the logic there - Diana was the Princess of Wales and out of respect to her memory, to her sons, and to her fans Camilla doesn't use it. Diana was never Queen, and long before Camilla and Charles got married Diana ceased to be the next Queen. This wasn't Camilla's fault, no matter how much people chose to blame her. We need to accept that and move on.

That said, I actually think the whole issue of Camilla's titles says something strong about how much Camilla loves and cares for Charles. Even when faced with the idea that she would never be accepted, that she would always be treated as less than regardless of her own successes, and even knowing that she may very well always be put into the mistress position she chose to stay with and marry Charles. She could have made a new life for herself and break free of it, but she decided Charles was worth it. That's a great love.

At the same time, my opinion of Charles is less. I don't hold a grudge against him for his failed marriage or his affair - there were 2 in that marriage and Diana is as accountable as he is. But when he decided that he had to have Camilla he also chose to relegate her to the position of mistress. He chose to make her less than, and to give us this power to never accept her.
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  #1820  
Old 08-23-2014, 03:50 AM
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I think the situation will be that when Charles is King, Camilla is Queen, like Camilla is The Princess of Wales now. But... she "will be known as" The Princess Consort, very much alike she "is know as" The Duchess of Cornwall" now.

In both cases no any legislation is required. Simply another style is used notwithstanding the fact that she will be the rightful Queen as she is the rightful Princess of Wales. It is the same mechanism as with the children of Prince Edward: both the Viscount Severn as well his sister are HRH Prince James of Wessex as well HRH Princess Louise of Wessex but "are known as" Lord James and Lady Louise notwithstanding their rightful title, style and dignity as a Prince(ss) of the United Kingdom.
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