The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1141  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:46 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
I think Charles should really just leave the family to slim down naturally, as in 40 years there will not be the same amount of HRH's simply because William and Harry will likely not have 4 children each. If the Queen had not had Andrew and Edward then there would be 5 less HRH (Andrew, Bea, Eug, Edward and Sophie) therefore a smaller selection of family. This will eventually happen as the older members pass on, which I think Charles should really wait for. Beatrice and Eugenie will have to make their own way in life, as their older cousins Peter and Zara have managed to do. Of course they will ALWAYS have money and wealth because of inheritance, as will Louise and James, but they will all make their own way in life. Charles for one should be glad Edward and Sophie chose to not have their children styled as HRH's as it has made him not have to "deal with" two more HRH's in his lifetime.

It has been pointed out already a couple of times that the idea of a smaller working family is based on a comment from about 20 years ago that can't even be attributed to Charles.

Every article I have read has made it clear that the making the family smaller is by a process of not adding new people in the younger generation to replace the extended family in older generations so, if it is to happen at all, it will be natural.

George V had 6 children, 5 reached adulthood, 1 more had no children and only his three sons had 7 HRH grandchildren of whom 2 have died. So in The Queen's generation there were 4 princes and 3 princesses with only the princes automatically having HRH spouses - The Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent and Princess Michael while the spouses of the 3 princesses were Philip, Tony and Angus - one a consort to a Queen and the others husbands of princesses. Of those 7 only 1 passed on HRH - the Queen.

She had 4 children - 3 princes and 1 princess with a possible 3 HRHs by marriage. There are 6 eligible HRHs in the next generation but already 2 aren't using it.

In the next generation there will only be the children of William and Harry to have the HRH and that could easily be only 4.

Natural reductions follow naturally smaller families that we are having today.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1142  
Old 03-17-2013, 09:56 PM
DukeOfAster's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pembroke, United States
Posts: 180
I feel that it will not be him taking people out but as current law suggest these people will lose the HRH due to the style is not granted to nieces or nephew of the monarch or second cousin to the monarch. we will keep balcony appearances to Charles and his family and so forth. It is not like he is mean it is just the natural progression of things.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1143  
Old 03-17-2013, 10:12 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,723
What current law are you referring to?

The current titles are under the 1917 LPs -

The children of the monarch:

Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward

Male line grandchildren of the monarch:

William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard, Edward, Micheal and Alexandra

The eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales:

William's eldest son

This last LP was adjusted recently to give ALL of William's children HRH.

Under the 1917 LPs only William and Harry now living can pass the HRH on and Harry only to his children and only if Charles becomes King.

There is no law that I know that has suggested anyone currently with HRH will lose it.

The balcony appearance at the end of the Jubilee was focussed just on the immediate heir and family - as did Victoria at her golden jubilee. At Trooping the Colour we will still see the entire extended family - HRHs and others like the Philips, Tindalls, Linleys and Chattos.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1144  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:07 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeOfAster View Post
I feel that it will not be him taking people out but as current law suggest these people will lose the HRH due to the style is not granted to nieces or nephew of the monarch or second cousin to the monarch. we will keep balcony appearances to Charles and his family and so forth. It is not like he is mean it is just the natural progression of things.
Why would anyone with an HRH lose their HRH?

There are very few people who have an HRH and use, and most are actually fairly old. These people are:

Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, 91 (through his marriage)
Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, 68 (male-line grandson of George V)
The Duchess of Gloucester, 66 (through her marriage)
Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, 77 (male-line grandson of George V)
The Duchess of Kent, 80 (through her marriage)
Prince Michael of Kent, 70 (male-line grandson of George V)
Princess Michael of Kent, 68 (through her marriage)
Princess Alexandra, 76 (male-line granddaughter of Kent)
Charles, Prince of Wales, 64 (son of the Queen)
The Duchess of Cornwall, 65 (through her marriage)
Anne, Princess Royal, 62 (daughter of the Queen)
Prince Andrew, Duke of York, 53 (son of the Queen)
Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, 49 (son of the Queen)
The Countess of Wessex, 48 (through her marriage)
Prince William, Duke of Cambridge, 30 (male-line grandson of the Queen)
The Duchess of Cambridge, 31 (through her marriage)
Prince Harry of Wales, 28 (male-line grandson of the Queen)
Princess Beatrice of York, 24 (male-line granddaughter of the Queen)
Princess Eugenie of York, 22 (male-line granddaughter of the Queen)

Right now the only way for an HRH to be created is through the birth of a new HRH to Prince William or the marriage of either Prince Andrew or Prince Harry (or for Andrew to get married and then have children). Prince Harry's future children will only become HRH's if and when his father becomes king.

The only 2 people who it would make any sense to have the HRH removed from would be Beatrice and Eugenie, but to do so without addressing the HRHs of the Gloucesters and Kents can (and likely would) be seen as an insult to Andrew and his daughters. There is no point in removing the HRHs from either Gloucester or Kent, as the youngest person with one through those lines is 66. Why bother striping someone of a title that they've had for 40+ years and can't pass on? Similar can be said of the York girls - why bother striping them of a title that they can't pass on? So the royal family is 2 people smaller? It changes nothing.

Regardless of who currently has an HRH, the family is going to get smaller. There are 5 HRHs who we can safely assume will not be alive in the next 20 years, and another 4 who will definitely be pushing their life expectancy. Within 40 years, we can assume that 14 of the currently 19 HRHs will no longer be alive, and another (William) will no longer be HRH. That leaves 4 of the current HRHs. The only additions will be through the marriage of Harry, any children born to Harry or William, any wives of William and Harry's sons, and any male-line grandchildren born to William (or female-line heirs).

If we assume that William and Harry each have 2 sons, all who marry, and each of William's 2 sons have 2 kids each, then there'll be 13 additional HRHs, for a total of 17 HRHs. If Harry only has daughters then there would 2 fewer, and if William had an heir and a daughter, there would be 3 fewer - meaning that we can project an estimate BRF size of between 9 and 18 people by the time William is king (8-17 HRHs plus the monarch). That's natural shrinkage, no need to revoke any HRHs.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1145  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:09 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,380
Iluvbertie, technically Andrew can pass on the HRH if he remarries and has more children (a possibility that can't be ruled out). Charles can't only because of the age of his wife, and Edward technically does, but his children don't use it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1146  
Old 03-18-2013, 12:38 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,723
Of course Andrew could pass it on if he remarried. If Camilla died and Charles remarried a younger women so could he as could Edward but...

The only ones in the current circumstances are William and Harry as it is highly unlikely that Andrew would remarry.

I would love Andrew to remarry a woman young enough to give him a son but I don't think he would do so. Why a son?? Because Beatrice can't inherit York and I would love for him to be able to pass on the title of York to one of his descendents - and yes I know the history and how it hasn't happened since the 1400s. I just find it offensive that in this day and age a woman can't inherit a title on the grounds that she is a woman.

The situation with Edward's children is difficult as there are two interpretations 1) that because there were no LPs they are HRHs but not using them and 2) because all that is needed is for The Queen's will to be known and that happened they never had the HRH.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1147  
Old 03-18-2013, 12:49 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Of course Andrew could pass it on if he remarried. If Camilla died and Charles remarried a younger women so could he as could Edward but...

The only ones in the current circumstances are William and Harry as it is highly unlikely that Andrew would remarry.

I would love Andrew to remarry a woman young enough to give him a son but I don't think he would do so. Why a son?? Because Beatrice can't inherit York and I would love for him to be able to pass on the title of York to one of his descendents - and yes I know the history and how it hasn't happened since the 1400s. I just find it offensive that in this day and age a woman can't inherit a title on the grounds that she is a woman.
I agree with this completely and think that while they're hashing out the current changes to the succession laws they should look at the general inheritance of titles - although as non-royal hereditary nobles are no longer created, the idea might be to let the nobility die out through the lack of male heirs and the inability of female heirs to inherit titles.

When William was created Duke of Cambridge, was it established that only his male heirs could inherit, or could daughters inherit as well?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1148  
Old 03-18-2013, 01:44 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,723
William's LPs were the traditional 'heirs male' which could lead to an interesting scenario - girl first, then boy and William dies before becoming King - Cambridge is inherited by the son who won't become King.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1149  
Old 03-18-2013, 01:52 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
William's LPs were the traditional 'heirs male' which could lead to an interesting scenario - girl first, then boy and William dies before becoming King - Cambridge is inherited by the son who won't become King.
In which case Cambridge continues, something that no one is really expecting now.

It's similar to the idea that not all of the realms pass the changes to the succession laws, in which case if there's a girl first then a boy later there could be one Queen of the United Kingdom and a King of *insert Commonwealth country*. In theory, because of the Catholic provisions, we could get up to 4 or 5 monarchs if the various realms passed none, some, or all of the changes, or inserted their own changes, independently of each other, and William had enough children.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1150  
Old 03-18-2013, 02:45 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
In which case Cambridge continues, something that no one is really expecting now.

It's similar to the idea that not all of the realms pass the changes to the succession laws, in which case if there's a girl first then a boy later there could be one Queen of the United Kingdom and a King of *insert Commonwealth country*. In theory, because of the Catholic provisions, we could get up to 4 or 5 monarchs if the various realms passed none, some, or all of the changes, or inserted their own changes, independently of each other, and William had enough children.

Actually that latter can't happen as the changes to the succession act doesn't take effect until passed in all the realms so if a girl first and then a boy and if one of the countries hasn't changed the law then it is still boy first everywhere - so even if this child is a girl it is still possible that a younger son will take precedence.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1151  
Old 03-18-2013, 03:26 AM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post

Actually that latter can't happen as the changes to the succession act doesn't take effect until passed in all the realms so if a girl first and then a boy and if one of the countries hasn't changed the law then it is still boy first everywhere - so even if this child is a girl it is still possible that a younger son will take precedence.
Ah, see it's been reported here that it is possible (although, I wouldn't hold my breath on newspapers being right).

There is a part of me that would enjoy the results of different succession laws, though.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1152  
Old 03-18-2013, 08:35 AM
DukeOfAster's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pembroke, United States
Posts: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post

I agree with this completely and think that while they're hashing out the current changes to the succession laws they should look at the general inheritance of titles - although as non-royal hereditary nobles are no longer created, the idea might be to let the nobility die out through the lack of male heirs and the inability of female heirs to inherit titles.

When William was created Duke of Cambridge, was it established that only his male heirs could inherit, or could daughters inherit as well?
the Queen issued letter of patents stating that the children of William would get HRH and be Prince or Princess. that is what I am looking at.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1153  
Old 03-18-2013, 03:06 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
History always repeats itself. And I see a lot of similarities between the current Royal Family and the one from the late XIX century, early XX century.

Queen Victoria was a long-lived Sovereign, with a long reign. She was succed by her son, King Edward VII, who was, himself, a old man at his ascension. He's reign was quite short, and his son and successor, King George V, alongside his wife, Queen Mary, reinvented the Monarchy, so, the Institution was able to survive through the XX century.

Queen Elizabeth II is a long-lived Sovereign (even older than Queen Victoria). Her Majesty will, probably, live as long as her mother (so she has about more 15-20 years on hold). King George VII's (or Charles III, wathever) reign will be a short one (10-15 years). Will be upon King William V and Queen Catherine to reinvent the Monarchy, so the Firm will be able to survive through the XXI century, and reach the XXII.

So, in my opinion, during his reign, the Prince of Wales will start to change somethings, but the great renovation of the British Monarchy will only happen during the Duke of Cambridge's reign.

I don't think the Prince of Wales will do any slimmig down, that will occur naturally, during the course of time.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1154  
Old 03-18-2013, 03:09 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,260
^^^^
Edward VII was succeeded by his son George V who was the monarch married to Queen Mary.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1155  
Old 03-18-2013, 03:13 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro and Petrópolis, Brazil
Posts: 1,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
^^^^
Edward VII was succeeded by his son George V who was the monarch married to Queen Mary.
Yeah, I got confused.

I corrected. Thanks.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1156  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:09 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,723
The big difference between Edward VII and Charles is that Edward smoked heavily, ate and drank to excess so he died due to not taking care of his health.

Charles has always taken care of his heath and therefore stands a great chance of living to the same age as his parents - whatever age he becomes King a reign of 20+ years is still possible.

William has smoked, and probably still does only we don't see it. He has also been a heavy drinker in his youth. He hasn't taken the same care of his health as his father has and so stands a greater chance of not living to the great ages of his grandparents. Add to those listed he also spends a lot of time in the sun so skin cancer is also a possibility - and that can also be fatal (I hate seeing people with tans as it is a sign of an unhealthy person not a healthy one).

It is perfectly possible that William won't become King until the middle of the century unlike George V who was King 100 years ago.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1157  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:26 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Waterford, United States
Posts: 1,005
What Laura Bush had to say in her book,

"Spoken from the Heart" :

During the account of her rise from an oil town in Texas to the world stage, Mrs. Bush describes her unexpected encounters with global leaders and heads of state. Her meeting with the Prince and Duchess came in November 2005. ‘When Prince Charles and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, came to visit us,’ she wrote, ‘they requested glasses of ice before we began a long receiving line. The staff dutifully produced them, and the Prince removed a flask from his pocket and added to each a small splash of what I presume was straight gin, so that they might be fortified before the hour of shaking hands’,” Times writes, citing Mrs. Bush herself.

Wonder why he didn't just ask Laura for a couple of drinks?

I've never thought of Charles (or Camilla) as being particularly abstemious, at least not when they were a bit younger. He does seem the picture of health, although I wonder if he has rosacea.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1158  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:43 PM
cepe's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
"Spoken from the Heart" :

During the account of her rise from an oil town in Texas to the world stage, Mrs. Bush describes her unexpected encounters with global leaders and heads of state. Her meeting with the Prince and Duchess came in November 2005. ‘When Prince Charles and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, came to visit us,’ she wrote, ‘they requested glasses of ice before we began a long receiving line. The staff dutifully produced them, and the Prince removed a flask from his pocket and added to each a small splash of what I presume was straight gin, so that they might be fortified before the hour of shaking hands’,” Times writes, citing Mrs. Bush herself.

Wonder why he didn't just ask Laura for a couple of drinks?

I've never thought of Charles (or Camilla) as being particularly abstemious, at least not when they were a bit younger. He does seem the picture of health, although I wonder if he has rosacea.
I cant see what this has to do the Monarchy under Charles or how you've reached your final conclusion.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
Reply With Quote
  #1159  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:53 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Waterford, United States
Posts: 1,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
I cant see what this has to do the Monarchy under Charles or how you've reached your final conclusion.
The post prior to mine compared the habits and lifestyles of various royals, pointing out Charles' healthy lifestyle. I've been reading about and seeing pictures of Charles (and Camilla) for many years. There is no doubt in my mind that they enjoy (or enjoyed) alcoholic beverages. And why not? Many adults do, and I'm not suggesting either of them drink to excess. In fact, the occasional drink is considered healthful by many medical professionals.
I wonder about rosacea because of his complexion.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #1160  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:23 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
The post prior to mine compared the habits and lifestyles of various royals, pointing out Charles' healthy lifestyle. I've been reading about and seeing pictures of Charles (and Camilla) for many years. There is no doubt in my mind that they enjoy (or enjoyed) alcoholic beverages. And why not? Many adults do, and I'm not suggesting either of them drink to excess. In fact, the occasional drink is considered healthful by many medical professionals.
I wonder about rosacea because of his complexion.
agree about complexion and is rosacea not exacerbated by alcohol? here is hoping that the prince of wales and his duchess take after his esteemed and much missed grandmother who quite enjoyed the odd tipple or threei
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british, camilla, charles iii, charles of wales, coronation, crown jewels, duchess of cornwall, legacy, prince charles, prince of wales, queen camilla, titles, william v


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Monarchy in Greece Fireweaver The Royal Family of Greece 287 08-24-2014 07:56 AM
Monarchy vs Republic marian Royalty Past, Present, and Future 327 06-12-2014 06:11 PM
The Monarchy after Elizabeth II ysbel British Royals 311 12-29-2012 04:36 PM
The Monarchy And The Media Alexandria Royal House of Norway 12 04-08-2004 04:06 PM




Popular Tags
belgium brussels carl philip charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events engagement fashion genealogy germany grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman pieter van vollenhoven poland president hollande prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince daniel prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess ariane princess astrid princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen anne-marie queen fabiola queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:41 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]