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  #861  
Old 08-20-2011, 06:24 AM
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I went back over my previous post as I usually do and noticed something. My last statement wasn't very clear.

"Being given everything that you need and want no matter where you are or how you were raised will never equal the feeling of earning something by merit. That is self esteem which I think Charles is trying in his own way to establish."

It could be read that I meant Charles is establishing his own self esteem or that the communities that he is working for are working for that same goal.

I think maybe it could be working both ways. One thing for sure is that for better or worse, Charles is trying to make a difference.
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  #862  
Old 08-20-2011, 07:29 AM
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I
I think maybe it could be working both ways. One thing for sure is that for better or worse, Charles is trying to make a difference.
And I think that that is the crux of the matter. Whether he is starting from a position of privalage, using his position in political ways, whether you agree with what he is striving for or not, Prince Charles is trying to make a difference when there is no obligation for him to do so. And that is why I think he is a leader and will make a great King. He is not just sitting around waiting for the crown to fall into his lap.
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  #863  
Old 08-20-2011, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by fearghas View Post
And I think that that is the crux of the matter. Whether he is starting from a position of privalage, using his position in political ways, whether you agree with what he is striving for or not, Prince Charles is trying to make a difference when there is no obligation for him to do so. And that is why I think he is a leader and will make a great King. He is not just sitting around waiting for the crown to fall into his lap.
Just out of curiosity, really when was the last time that a King or PoW actually did anything like Charles is doing?

All I know that whatever bad connotations have been applied to Henry Viii, he did buld an awesome navy,
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  #864  
Old 08-20-2011, 08:52 AM
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Great post, iluvbertie.

Charles has been very shabbily treated by the media throughout his life, and I think very misunderstood as well.

He's done some great things with his life though- he'll make a wonderful king.

I agree.
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  #865  
Old 08-20-2011, 12:42 PM
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Relevance? Severely lacking it would seem...

So you'll in turn rationalise your growing dislike of William because his father has faced some harsh criticisms over the years, despite Charles' good works, and he has not? If so, that's some well misplaced hang up you appear to harbour.
Some truth here but not for why you think - I am reacting, I think, to people's fans more than to them. After all, I really don't know William - but I do have occasion to experience his fans, and all this talk of leap-frogging over his father to the throne, etc. Its the animosity I see expressed by fans of Diana and now by fans of William, at what seems to be the expense of Charles - that I react to - and that said: am I becoming that which I abhor? It happens - we turn into that which we judge. Ah so!

BTW, it would seem I am besotted for Charles - I'm not, actually, but he is so regularly trounced that I feel there is need of a balance. The cruelty that his ex-wife set in motion towards him seems to have no let-up and that I find disturbing. The man is far, far more than the cartoon that is bandied about with such derision - he seems an example of the saying, how does it go? The prophet without respect in his own country? Something like that....

As for William's (and Harry's) coming over to foreign countries and 'looking around' - fine - just don't have 'my' city's police department have to deal with 'you', and have 'me' (taxpayer) pay for what is in effect 'your' PR. Sorry, I am extremely jaded with these things - and I remain annoyed by what William decided to do in what is for him a foreign country. I believe he did it because he believes some of his mother's PR spin and is proceeding under that illusion, which I think is sad.

Now Charles, given he is the actual heir who 'stands in' for HM, and given his life's work - his visiting the down-and-out portions of Washington D.C. as he did some years back with Camilla - when I lived there - was wholly acceptable IMO. Nothing false about it. His interest was believable and his questions and comments bona fide.
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  #866  
Old 08-20-2011, 02:14 PM
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BTW, it would seem I am besotted for Charles - I'm not, actually, but he is so regularly trounced that I feel there is need of a balance. The cruelty that his ex-wife set in motion towards him seems to have no let-up and that I find disturbing. The man is far, far more than the cartoon that is bandied about with such derision - he seems an example of the saying, how does it go? The prophet without respect in his own country? Something like that....
Now here I do need to speak a truth. I *was* besotted by Charles growing up. He was the Action Man and I was just another hippie in the crowd.

Like most of us from that era, we marched to the tune of our own drums. It wasn't until I joined TRF that I knew he loved books and music as much as I do. I remember all the cartoons about the Dumbo ears and googly eyes and he was always pictured as being an awkward gangly guy. Not attractive..but then.. neither was I. And so I married another prince. Was a good idea at the time. Didn't work out after 20 some years so I moved on. So did Charles. Mine wasn't public so much as his was though. We as people moved on but Charles has something I don't. He's got press and people that will still remind him that he had a relationship that went south and froze. I had other things

I've not had Charles' riches that Ive dreamed would solve everything and to be honest, after everything in our lives... Charles and mine, we're still the same people but older and wiser. We're doing what we can in our own ways to make a difference.

I'll never be his Queen nor ride off in the sunset on a white horse with a real prince but I know in a way, I've made my difference in the world in my own way and to be honest.... so has Charles.

This might sound weird but its true. "When a man dies, he holds in his hands only that which he has given away"

Sad thing is.. if Charles died next week.. watch all the good things said about him.

anyone up for a Harmony book read discussion?
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  #867  
Old 08-20-2011, 04:30 PM
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anyone up for a Harmony book read discussion?
You know, I would be. Yes. I am curious. I saw the documentary. Give a link to the thread when you start it up.
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  #868  
Old 08-20-2011, 04:59 PM
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Good gawd, Tyger your hatred for William is because he "dared" to go to a poverty stricken area of the US and have a look? Who the heck cares! Dozens of politicians do so, hundreds of celebrities do so; if we are lucky their tour will cause attention to the stricken area and perhaps encourage people to help out more. And as for the police, if Charles had done the same thing the police would have been called in to help; William and Kate are targets and the police are there to help prevent an assassination. It honestly seems you are just looking for a reason to hate William, if his interest in the less fortunate is at the top of your list. Or the fact that the BBC focuses on him more than his father and yet you blame that on William, like he is in contact with the station and is working against his dad.

This really needs to stop being a bash William/defend William thread.
Back to Charles, I don't know what else can be said about him; he is educated, politically active, and seems to care and respect his role greatly. I honestly don't know what kind of King he will be, but he appears to be one of the best Prince of Wales' since the Hanover's came over.
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  #869  
Old 08-20-2011, 06:08 PM
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C'mon guys, this thread is not about William and certainly not about his receiving police (and Secret Service) protection while visiting certain areas of the US. William is a VIP, he receives British and host-city and host-country protection wherever he goes. That's the way it is.
Any further discussion of this topic should be in the Royal Security thread.

Let's move on now please.


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  #870  
Old 08-21-2011, 12:24 AM
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I think bringing awareness and publicity to causes is one of the things the royal family does very well and I think Charles will continue to make that a priority when he's king.
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  #871  
Old 08-21-2011, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyger View Post
You know, I would be. Yes. I am curious. I saw the documentary. Give a link to the thread when you start it up.
Will do! I will be getting the book the 1st of the month and will start a discussion in the book thread.
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  #872  
Old 08-21-2011, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

I am fully aware of his views on architecture - but he didn't do anything outside what he is allowed to do.

It was more a matter that other people think that as a royal he shouldn't be allowed to have any basic rights - including the right to express an opinion. He actually is allowed to do so and allowed to ask his friends to also express their opinions - that isn't political meddling but simple expressing of a human right. He has few enough of those compared to the rest of the population but he does have the right to express his opinion on non-politicial matters and architecture is just that - non-political.

If he comes out and says - 'the Lib-Dems should be supported over the Labour party' - that is political meddling and he can't do that (although you and I can). He can't make a comment on a political issue e.g. he can't comment on the government's attitude to university costs but he can express an opinion on what he likes aesthetically - that isn't politics.

Can you please point to political meddling as opposed to expressing a public opinion on a non-political matter - architecture isn't a political issue - the military, the economy, foreign affairs, taxation etc is.

He was ahead of the political parties with regard to the environment, expressing opinions on that matter before it became politicised so he is still able to express his opinion on that because it was in the public domain before most of the rest of the world cared.

What you want is for him to live in a coccoon and not express an opinion on anything as you are saying that him expressing an opinion is political.
Charles has frequently used his position to pressurise governments into making decisions - something that your ordinary Joe can't do, because the government doesn't listen to any old person who writes. To an extent the royals do live in a cocoon - they're neutral representatives. If Charles wants to be as popular as his wonderful mother he needs to take a step back. I'm not alone in this: he's sparked controversy that's been reported in national broadsheets. My point is that he lobbies ministers and receives special treatment - so in effect he's not trying to be like the rest of us, he's gaining access that the rest of us don't have. He has lobbied politically on issues other than architecture: I'd definitely recommend you look them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fearghas

Unfortunately I feel that this is the very reason why so many people dislike him. There are many people who don't like those who are good at or know things, especially when it has nothing to do with sport, pop music or movie stars.
Charles has spent so much of his time actually achieving things, not bad for someone who doesnt actually have to do anything.
As a musician, poet, and literature student, I dispute that :P I'm sure we'd all love to cultivate our skills and hobbies, but some of us have work 9-5 and tight finances. I'm not saying that what Charles has done isn't admirable, but it's not superhuman either!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Why hasn't he had a 'real' job for decades? Because he was expected to give up the job he had in the navy to do royal duties - otherwise he would have remained in the navy for decades longer. That comment was simply uncalled for - due to being born who he was he wasn't allowed to have a paid job after his mid-late 20s but had to support his mother.

I think a Cambridge education the equal of Harvard - so Charles and Obama do have a similar education standard.

Although there are no reports of adultery from Obama there have been a number of presidents who have also committed adultery - a certain Mr Clinton comes to mind.

If you had actually read what he said he said that people should realise that not everyone has the ability to do everything - and his staff member took it to be exactly as you have done.

What he said was that not everyone can reach the top - e.g. not every child can be a doctor - they haven't got the brains for it - and they should realise that at some point in their lives.

A man who is a realist actually.

No Charles wouldn't grovel for votes - because he would prefer to be a farmer and thus not be involved in politics at all - but he has to take up that role when the time comes and will do so. He didn't choose to do so but having been born into the role he has spent his entire life preparing for it by serving the nation - unlike elected politicians who only go into the role for themselves. If you believe a politician has any other motive than personal aggrandisement then I am afraid you are living in dreamland.

I think when you insult a future Head of State who has worked hard at what he does for 40 years then you can't be taken in jest.

It would have happened years ago as well - it did at different times throughout his time as PoW because he has always genuinely cared for the people in these situations and has done more to help them personally than any government - as attested by his Princes' Trust and its work in these areas and he is going to increase that work now - both through the trust and his own pocket.

He most certainly has the qualities necessary to lead a nation - whatever they may be. He has compassion and a love of his country. He has an education. He has been at the centre of its life for his entire life. He is the best prepared future leader anywhere - due to the time he has had to prepare and to learn.

Because he was born who he was he has had no say over his life's eventual ending but he has carved a role for himself while he waits for his mother to die. He could have sat back and collected stamps and shot things (as George V did) or he could have shot things, gone to nightclubs, gambled, changed his mistresses as often as his socks, drunk and eaten to excess (as Edward VII did) but he didn't follow those examples. He worked to create a legacy - the Prince's Trust - he got involved in the nation in a real sense and has always tried to make a difference. That is what a leader does and he has done it consistently.

He made one bad decision - he married the wrong women 30 years ago and since then many people have written him off. That is so unfortunate for him as he has done so much good but all a lot of people want to judge him on was that awful decision to put duty to his country first and marry Diana.
Just to clear up, back then entry to top British universities wasn't really meritocratic and it was more about money and status than anything else. Charles's academic record is actually quite poor. As far as I'm aware, Obama got to Harvard on skill and aptitude, so it's not exactly the same. Charles got a 2:2, which really isn't that great.
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  #873  
Old 08-21-2011, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by princess-royal View Post
If Charles wants to be as popular as his wonderful mother he needs to take a step back.
Do you really want your Royals to not have a life? Do you really want to condemn a person to such a non-existence? Surely there must be a way to allow Royals to fully participate in the world they were born into without it being a problem. Surely. I do not envy the life HM has had to live to be 'wonderful' to her subjects.

Maybe the nature of Kingship and Queenship needs to be re-thought. One can't have it both - lambasted for being in a cocoon and then lambasted for being involved.


Quote:
I'm not alone in this: he's sparked controversy that's been reported in national broadsheets. My point is that he lobbies ministers and receives special treatment - so in effect he's not trying to be like the rest of us, he's gaining access that the rest of us don't have. He has lobbied politically on issues other than architecture: I'd definitely recommend you look them up.
Is not debate good? Is Charles trying to be like the common joe? Is he 'suppose to be' - 'like the rest of us'? Which way is it going to be? It is an unequal world everywhere - would it not be a dereliction of responsibility, personally, for him not to act on his knowledge?

I just read some reviews of his book 'Harmony' on Amazon and I am very much looking forward to reading this book - and having the discussion here on TRF. I've long recognized that he is a significant synthesizer of ideas who has been acting on his insights - but I am starting to suspect it goes further.

It will be a shame if someone like this is smothered by outdated protocols of behavior for a British monarch - perhaps Charles will modernize the monarchy in ways startling.
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  #874  
Old 08-21-2011, 10:08 PM
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I know in the US there are a lot of people who "use their position" to influence politicians. They aren't forcing them to do something, but use their money, celebrity, or family background to at least force a meeting. The regular Joe cannot do what Charles does, but there are a select few of non-royals who can. And I don't know if in the UK this is the way things go, but in the US lobbying is a way of political life.
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  #875  
Old 08-21-2011, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I know in the US there are a lot of people who "use their position" to influence politicians. They aren't forcing them to do something, but use their money, celebrity, or family background to at least force a meeting. The regular Joe cannot do what Charles does, but there are a select few of non-royals who can. And I don't know if in the UK this is the way things go, but in the US lobbying is a way of political life.
One thing I've heard stated several times is that Charles is a very avid letter writer. I think most likely too, a lot of folks will see his spidery handwriting and go "here's another one!".
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  #876  
Old 08-22-2011, 02:37 AM
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As a musician, poet, and literature student, I dispute that :P I'm sure we'd all love to cultivate our skills and hobbies, but some of us have work 9-5 and tight finances. I'm not saying that what Charles has done isn't admirable, but it's not superhuman either!
I wasn't saying anything like that at all. I was saying that he couold quite easily have sat back and done nothing with his life. He didnt have to do any of the things that he has done. And yet he still did. And do you dispute
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I know in the US there are a lot of people who "use their position" to influence politicians. They aren't forcing them to do something, but use their money, celebrity, or family background to at least force a meeting. The regular Joe cannot do what Charles does, but there are a select few of non-royals who can. And I don't know if in the UK this is the way things go, but in the US lobbying is a way of political life.
The difference is that Charles has nothing personal to gain from his letter writing. He is not doing it for money he is doing it because he believes in it.

The politicians do not need to listen, he can't ask his mum to send them to the Tower. They vote in favour because along with Charles letters comes the media spotlight and a lot of national and local politicians look more than a little suspect in their decisions. They do not stand up to the harsh light of day.

As a footnote, I don't think Charles gives a rats about what people think of his lobbying. The truth will invariably get out and so far he hasn't been the one caught with his trotters in the trough!
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  #878  
Old 08-22-2011, 03:31 AM
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Unfortunately Charles is in a lose-lose situtation. According to the constitution, the monarch will have keep out of discussions, not giving a personal opinion etc, basically what HM is doing.

Charles is a different person, with strong personal and passionate views and opinions on a variety of subjects that are bound to create controversy with public and society. This might be ok as CP but I dont think he will get away with this attitude as monarch.

Many people will be waiting for the moment to reign him in and shut him up on many issues, thumping on the constitution. I doubt Charles will be able "modernize" the monarchy in the direction of an outspoken monarch what comes close to the republican idea, most monarchs are non-political and representative figureheads only and those who have more power (eg the King of Jordan) are likely to be restricted rather than a representative monarch getting more power in the future.

Charles remaining outspoken will - in my opinion - put the monarchy into crisis since its against his constitutional role what is unlikely to be revised and Charles being shut up will rape his own character and bury many of his good ideas or opinions, what will make him an unhappy King.
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:10 AM
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According to the constitution, the monarch will have keep out of discussions, not giving a personal opinion etc, basically what HM is doing.
Curious, what does this mean, because I really don't know. New territory for me. Does it mean HM can't waltz down to the House of Lords and openly engage in debate? (I suspect no). Or start writing editorials for The Times to bring in some cash money? (I suspect no). But I know she can tell the PM in their private meetings what she thinks - correct? I assume she can chatter away all she wants to her husband and children - and friends - correct? If that's the case what stops her from talking privately with all manner of folk - and how is it that we don't assume she is doing just that? I mean she has all these Heads of State over the years having sleep-overs at the palace?

What exactly is going to fall apart if a King or Queen openly expresses opinions? What is this 'rule' addressing? I have a fondness for the Prince Regent - didn't he express points of view? Didn't Victoria - and Albert? Doesn't the DoE?
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:42 AM
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Just to clear up, back then entry to top British universities wasn't really meritocratic and it was more about money and status than anything else. Charles's academic record is actually quite poor. As far as I'm aware, Obama got to Harvard on skill and aptitude, so it's not exactly the same. Charles got a 2:2, which really isn't that great.
he get 2:2 ?
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