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  #821  
Old 08-18-2011, 08:40 PM
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Much of what he is, is because he is the POW. Does he have the intellect to get into Cambridge, Harvard, on his own,I have no idea. He has his position, to which he has a right. He will be a fine king, as not much will be expected of him. There have been plenty of philandering presidents, not our present one and plenty of philandering princes and kings. You cannot use that indicator. No one know what has been suggested to him, as to setting up the Princes Trust and how he would have lioved his life without the scores of people who do much for him each day. He will be a "leader" because of his birth.
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  #822  
Old 08-18-2011, 08:49 PM
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You must be a speed typist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
You stated you would prefer to have a Harvard educated leader
No I didn't. My quote specifically referred to rising based on merit, not Cambridge vs. Harvard. You can copy and paste if you like. "Much better than a Harvard trained attorney who ascended to the presidency without connections and due only to merit."

You seem bent on the idea that no one read the memo Charles wrote and convinced of an interpretation that is at odds with the plain reading of the text. This is fine, but you are also insisting that a reading of WHAT PRINCE CHARLES WROTE is somehow a conspiracy of the uninformed against him. To aid in the interpretation of the sentence you quoted, one need only look to Prince Charles lui-meme: "It is a result of social utopianism which believes humanity can be genetically engineered to contradict the lessons of history."

You can probably allow that his words, at very least, hinted at views that are not in keeping with modern Bristish concepts of an individual's role in society and the possibility of transcending one's circumstances. You may also, perhaps, grant that these views may be viewed as self-serving for someone born into Prince Charles' role.

Again, you can interpret this as you wish.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
He went on to blame the fact that children aren't tested and told what those academic limits are - or what other limits they have e.g. we had a student at my school a number of years ago who went through the entire 'leadership course' we run but when the crunch came none of the teachers or his peers elected him to a prefects position because he simply wasn't cut out to be a leader for a lot of personal reasons - his parents protested to the school and tried to sue the school for not electing him to a prefect position - Charles would say that that was a person not realising their capablitilites - not saying he shouldn't have tried out to be a leader but should have accepted the fact that he wasn't one and simply moved on with life.
How nice, then, that Prince Charles's own poor grades did not get in the way of him getting into Cambridge and that he was admitted nonetheless, because the institution had confidence that he could achieve at a level higher that what he had actually demonstrated. I don't understand his rather passionate plea that others not receive this same boost of confidence in their potential, rather than demonstrated, abilities. Would this, again, be a self serving point of view disguised as a value?

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let's not let the truth get in the way of a false belief.
Indeed.
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  #823  
Old 08-18-2011, 08:57 PM
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We can speak in generalizations, but let's try to keep Obama or any US President (Bush, Clinton, Kennedy, Garfield, etc.) out of this thread.
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  #824  
Old 08-18-2011, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
We can speak in generalizations, but let's try to keep Obama or any US President (Bush, Clinton, Kennedy, Garfield, etc.) out of this thread.
Sorry Zonk. I started it all with my off the cuff comment.

All I meant to state was that Charles has the qualities of a man that I would admire in a position of leadership.
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  #825  
Old 08-18-2011, 09:47 PM
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That's fine. The problem begins when we (and I am using the general we) throw in our usual political rancor, and we start going off topic about the differing US political views, etc. We have enough drama in this thread without throwing out our red and blue thoughts If you know what I mean.
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  #826  
Old 08-18-2011, 09:51 PM
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Look, if not by accident of birth, he would, probabaly, be in some middle management job. He is hardly, a "leader". No great intellect or drive. Most of his accomplishments are because he had a great fortune, time and unlimited access to mentors and funds. He is wise to like his position, which has given him great latitude. Since, being king, requires nothing more than what he is, he will be a fine monarch for as long as he is in the position. Who is against him? He will be king, because of his birth, not because he has any particular qualifications. It is not a merit job.
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  #827  
Old 08-18-2011, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearghas View Post
Unfortunately I feel that this is the very reason why so many people dislike him. There are many people who don't like those who are good at or know things, especially when it has nothing to do with sport, pop music or movie stars.
Charles has spent so much of his time actually achieving things, not bad for someone who doesnt actually have to do anything.
I think this is a good point! Charles' interests don't appeal to a broad segment of the population, (although some, like organic farming, have become trendy). Which is fine, not everyone can, or wants to be the guy next door, but I think combined with his sometimes awkward personality, his "different-ness" has probably turned some people off. I actually think Charles has come into his own over the last several years, though and I hope people will look at some of the things he's actually accomplished while he's been Prince of Wales before dismissing him.
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  #828  
Old 08-18-2011, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fearghas View Post
Unfortunately I feel that this is the very reason why so many people dislike him. There are many people who don't like those who are good at or know things, especially when it has nothing to do with sport, pop music or movie stars.
Charles has spent so much of his time actually achieving things, not bad for someone who doesnt actually have to do anything.
I think this is a good point! Charles' interests don't appeal to a broad segment of the population, (although some, like organic farming, have become trendy). Which is fine, not everyone can, or wants to be the guy next door, but I think combined with his sometimes awkward personality, his "different-ness" has probably turned some people off. I actually think Charles has come into his own over the last several years, though and I hope people will look at some of the things he's actually accomplished while he's been Prince of Wales before dismissing him.
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  #829  
Old 08-18-2011, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
We can speak in generalizations, but let's try to keep Obama or any US President (Bush, Clinton, Kennedy, Garfield, etc.) out of this thread.
Garfield? Garfield! Look who's being provocative!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Yes, we need a dilettante adulterer who has not held a job outside of his royal duties in decades. Much better than a Harvard trained attorney who ascended to the presidency without connections and due only to merit.

Yes, the person who believes people should not aspire to go beyond their station in life would be a great president. But then, he would need to be elected. Do you think Charles would deign to grovel for votes and act in such a base republican manner?

:-)

Please take this in jest.
The poster said it was a jest and I read it as a jest - yet consider the dialog that eventuated. An example of how text can be read in very different ways.
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  #830  
Old 08-19-2011, 01:23 AM
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Our country has had many an adulterer in the Oval Office. I do think one of Charles' problems is that his passions aren't popular. I admit that I sometimes find what he believes in boring, but I admirer him for doing the research to become such an expert on his causes. He cares a lot about the environment and our green spaces, and even though I tend to ignore such things, I admire how he refuses to ignore them and cares about the world he is leaving to his grand children.
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  #831  
Old 08-19-2011, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS
Look, if not by accident of birth, he would, probabaly, be in some middle management job. He is hardly, a "leader". No great intellect or drive. Most of his accomplishments are because he had a great fortune, time and unlimited access to mentors and funds. He is wise to like his position, which has given him great latitude. Since, being king, requires nothing more than what he is, he will be a fine monarch for as long as he is in the position. Who is against him? He will be king, because of his birth, not because he has any particular qualifications. It is not a merit job.
Thank you. This is so clear and obvious. Charles is famous for his lack of charm and presence. Even his own parents dislike him :-( I don't understand the push to rewrite history and cast him as a brilliant scholar and beloved leader. Average. JUST. I think he'll be a wonderful king and I really like him, but he is clearly not someone who would have distinguished himself in the "real" world.
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  #832  
Old 08-19-2011, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Look, if not by accident of birth, he would, probabaly, be in some middle management job. He is hardly, a "leader". No great intellect or drive. Most of his accomplishments are because he had a great fortune, time and unlimited access to mentors and funds. He is wise to like his position, which has given him great latitude. Since, being king, requires nothing more than what he is, he will be a fine monarch for as long as he is in the position. Who is against him? He will be king, because of his birth, not because he has any particular qualifications. It is not a merit job.
I tend to agree with the above statement for the most part.

Though I do think he has drive to contribute, he is however bound by certain expectations and must conduct himself accordingly.

Charles' method of success I think will reflect the way he continues to interact with the public.

He has the ability to empathise well with peoples from all walks of life. He knows how to work a crowd and as such, can romance those in his company with great success. Women and men alike.

It's nice seeing him engage in conversation. He's an animated fellow and has a very cheeky smile that radiates.

He knows enough about topical subjects to weigh in on the key issues, and expresses his opinions in ways that talk about the issues broadly before narrowing down to his own interpretations. This reflects his ability to be a true thinker.

He doesn't claim to be an expert, and only ever offers a thought, a view, a plausible understanding.

He's a very savvy communicator.

Quote:
Even his own parents dislike him
There is nothing to support that. It's tabloid fodder.
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  #833  
Old 08-19-2011, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Thank you. This is so clear and obvious. Charles is famous for his lack of charm and presence. Even his own parents dislike him :-( I don't understand the push to rewrite history and cast him as a brilliant scholar and beloved leader. Average. JUST. I think he'll be a wonderful king and I really like him, but he is clearly not someone who would have distinguished himself in the "real" world.
Actually, having once had the good fortune to talk to him, I can say that he has great charm and presence. On a one to one basis, or talking to memebers of a crowd, he knows how to speak and listen to you.
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  #834  
Old 08-19-2011, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Yes, we need a dilettante adulterer who has not held a job outside of his royal duties in decades. Much better than a Harvard trained attorney who ascended to the presidency without connections and due only to merit.
Well now, that is just plain nasty! Whatever else Charles is he is not a "dilettante" defined by Merriam Webster as:
  • A person who claims an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge.
The use of the "pejorative" term adulterer defined as:
  • a word or phrase that has negative connotations or that is intended to disparage or belittle
As for not having time outside his royal duties, I suggest you familiarise yourself with exactly what he does do with his time as it is obvious that in all the threads and all the posts, the salient facts have escaped you.

He works when he doesn't have to. He works to improve the lives of others when he doesn't have to. I think that takes up a fair amount of his time and really cuts into his skiing time!

In this arena, your above comments are merely a vindictive and vapid insult to substitute for substantive shortcoming in your argument. It is insulting and was intended to be so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Yes, the person who believes people should not aspire to go beyond their station in life would be a great president. . . . .
Either you didn't bother to actually read the memo quoted or you failed to understand the definition of the term actually used, "capabilities":
  • A talent or abilities for development or use for a specific purpose.
One's capabilities have nothing whatsoever to do with "station in life" but, to editorialise Charles statement by adding pejoratives is obviously your way of slagging him off in a sneaky and underhanded misrepresentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fascinator View Post


:-)

Please take this in jest.
But it is not a jest and you never intended that it should be. To imply that it is merely shows a lack of belief in your own integrity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Charles seems like a normal well rounded man who understands that he has a job to do and that the future of the monarchy depends on him doing it well.

That said, I do think that he and Camilla show real warmth and compassion. The photo of the Tottenham woman hugging him was extraordinary and would have been unimaginable years ago.

Still, it goes too far to attribute to him the qualities necessary to lead a nation in any real sense or to function outside of a world where his greatest achievement was simply being born.
Yes indeed, you really do not like this man at all and will not allow that he has achieved anything further than being born. However, if that is the premise on which you base any arguments against Prince Charles achievements, why bother to pretend that rude, vulgar and misleading statements made by you about him are merely a jest?
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  #835  
Old 08-19-2011, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Thank you. This is so clear and obvious. Charles is famous for his lack of charm and presence. Even his own parents dislike him :-( I don't understand the push to rewrite history and cast him as a brilliant scholar and beloved leader. Average. JUST. I think he'll be a wonderful king and I really like him, but he is clearly not someone who would have distinguished himself in the "real" world.
Here I would disagree. He's someone who's actually been weighed down by his position - as constrained as anyone is in a class society. Given that what he has done he has done in extremely limiting - albeit lush - circumstances, I would say he would likely have been a mover and shaker in some way if he had been free to really do whatever he wanted. That is the evidence from how he has conducted his life.

He is very much a man of his generation - interested in all things alternative, natural and spiritually inclusive - familiar to anyone out of the 60's. Much of what Charles is interested in and pursues is in sync with the avant garde thinking that changed the way we live and eat and how we grow our food and see our planned environment. Charles has never been 'out-of-step' - from what I am seeing - but has been ahead of the curve in England. Much of what he passionately pursues has been afoot in the US for several decades - albeit Charles pursues his interests with distinctively English nuances.

Now you're being a bit provoking - his parents do not dislike him - since when? Where are you getting this? I'm not aware that Charles is 'famous for his lack of charm and presence', either - quite the reverse. He very much comes across as a charming man with definite 'presence'. But that's from what I hear, and is also my opinion from what I see.

I would disagree on your other two points. I cannot judge his intellect but he is a thinker and a reflective man who was given a good education and it has made all the difference - made him use what he has to good advantage. We simply will never know what he could have achieved 'on his own'. Until his misfortunes with his first wife, he was wildly loved a la William. As for the leadership part - he has yet to be King - but he has clearly led in his business ventures and his charlty work.
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  #836  
Old 08-19-2011, 08:31 AM
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Thank you. This is so clear and obvious. Charles is famous for his lack of charm and presence.
What a load of old cobblers. Can you supply any credible verification?
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Originally Posted by fascinator View Post
Even his own parents dislike him :-
Now that is an unequivocal statement of fact and I do believe it is not unreasonable to ask for a factual, reliable verification.
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( I don't understand the push to rewrite history and cast him as a brilliant scholar and beloved leader. Average. JUST. I think he'll be a wonderful king and I really like him, but he is clearly not someone who would have distinguished himself in the "real" world.
Now here I beg to differ. Andrew and Edward have not managed to achieve much of anything and yet here is poor old average Prince Charles' masterminding 'The Prince's Trust' and a host of other patronages and initiatives.

No one is trying to cast him as a brilliant scholar and beloved leader, although I do believe he sets a great example of interest, education and innovation, and is admired and respect by many, many people and displays a tolerance sorely lacking in your latest posts.

But you know all this, or would do, if you had bothered to read any of the links that so many have posted, specifically for you, on this thread.

Really, in the final analysis, your personal animus toward Charles seems to have over-ridden your common sense, your manners, and any regard for a reasonable or objective dialogue.
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  #837  
Old 08-19-2011, 08:52 AM
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Very well written and I agree 100%.
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  #838  
Old 08-19-2011, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Look, if not by accident of birth, he would, probabaly, be in some middle management job. He is hardly, a "leader". No great intellect or drive. Most of his accomplishments are because he had a great fortune, time and unlimited access to mentors and funds. He is wise to like his position, which has given him great latitude. Since, being king, requires nothing more than what he is, he will be a fine monarch for as long as he is in the position. Who is against him? He will be king, because of his birth, not because he has any particular qualifications. It is not a merit job.

"If not for an accident of birth" applies to everyone, though. By an accident of birth I was born into a nice life in a rich country instead of into a slum in Calcutta. I didn't EARN my loving parents or the decent public schools and healthcare I've had access to since birth. I like to think that my achievements in life have come about due to talent and hard work but I also realize that I started out luckier than most.
Yes, Charles has had tremendous good fortune and privilege in some areas of his life, (I would argue he's also had built in limitations most people don't have to deal with). But at least he's taken the opportunities he's been given and ran with them. I think he DOES have drive and most likely an above average, although not earth shaking, intellect.
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  #839  
Old 08-19-2011, 01:58 PM
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I think that Prince Charles' comments on the riots were among the most insightful and compassionate of any public figure.
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  #840  
Old 08-19-2011, 02:23 PM
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"If not for an accident of birth" applies to everyone, though. By an accident of birth I was born into a nice life in a rich country instead of into a slum in Calcutta. I didn't EARN my loving parents or the decent public schools and healthcare I've had access to since birth. I like to think that my achievements in life have come about due to talent and hard work but I also realize that I started out luckier than most.
Yes, Charles has had tremendous good fortune and privilege in some areas of his life, (I would argue he's also had built in limitations most people don't have to deal with). But at least he's taken the opportunities he's been given and ran with them. I think he DOES have drive and most likely an above average, although not earth shaking, intellect.
Oh, you are right. accident of birth has given many different things to different people. I was born in 1941 and am Jewish. Which means if I didn't have the great fortune to be born in this wonderful country, I, probably, would have been killed. So ,yes, of course, we are all products of this accident. Charles is fine and he will do his job as king, I don't see why the fuss. On the other hand he isn't working a full time job, trying to make a buck, struggling, raising a family. He has the distinct advantage of position and great wealth. When and if he wants to do something, all the tools are at his disposal.
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