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  #721  
Old 08-08-2011, 12:05 PM
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That's why I said ancestors.
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  #722  
Old 08-09-2011, 02:49 AM
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Then it is up to us, loyal subjects (& those outside the Nations or Commonwealths that have their own Royal Family), to support them and help them continue.

It would be very sad to lose such a strong link to the past, and such a strong representation of good for the future.
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  #723  
Old 08-09-2011, 04:18 PM
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And I look forward to the reign of Charles when it's time. He's someone that I admire more and more as I learn about his interests and what he's accomplished.
Although I'm hoping it won't be for years to come yet, I am looking forward to the reign of Charles the Green (as I like to think of him). He has accomplished a lot over his years as PoW and has worked tirelessly to better benefit his country and his people along with passionately addressing global issues that affect us all.

Although I do see his reign as being perhaps a shorter one than many British monarchs, when Charles' biography is read in the future, I think we'll see that of all 2nd in line to the throne, Charles' accomplishments as PoW will probably far surpass any other PoW in history.

What better example for William to follow as heir to the throne eh?
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  #724  
Old 08-09-2011, 04:27 PM
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Charles the Green??? Good name :-)
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  #725  
Old 08-09-2011, 04:45 PM
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Let's keep in mind... the Hanovers (and by extension) the Windsors didn't "rise to the top", they were landed at the top and not because of merit and hard work but because George I was the closest protestant relative of Queen Anne.
One should not forget that the "Hanoverans" as a dynasty are the "Welfs" - and thus the oldest and one of the most prominent dynasties of Europe. Oldest insofar as they are the House that can prove they already reigned in 790 as souverain counts. The granddaughter Judith of this first Count married the son of Charlemagne (the emperor Ludwig) and her sister Hemma Charlesmagne's grandson (king Ludwig II.), so their lineage was considered to be most noble back then. Welf' princesses were wifes and mothers of emperors and kings while the male Welfs have several German emperors in pre-Habsburg times in their family.

To raise steadily to the position of one of the most influential families of Europe needed merit and hard work for war and peace. Compared to that it was rather by chance that the youngest daughter of Elizabeth Stuart, the princess Sophia of the Palatinate married the heir to the headship of the House of Welfs and became the heiress of the UK...
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  #726  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:02 PM
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This post just beautifully expressed exactly how I feel about the monarchy. Thank you.

And I look forward to the reign of Charles when it's time. He's someone that I admire more and more as I learn about his interests and what he's accomplished.
One of his "accomplishments" that will be well remembered into his reign will be his desire to be reincarnated as a tampax or anything else that would "allow him to live in *Camilla's* knickers.

I just don't see how he can possibly be regarded as a serious king, given what we know about him and not all of that information was published under unfair circumstances. Dimbleby's 25th anniversary biography was all Charles' own doing. If I didn't personally believe the principles of hereditary Monarchy (and the Monarchy itself) would be dealt serious blows by removing Charles from the line of succession, then I would earnestly argue that the PoW has removed himself, by virtue of his actions.

Since that can not be the case, I can only hope he will take after his mother and will follow as closely in HM's footsteps as HM has followed in the footsteps of her father, George VI.

I realise this is a controversial position, but I do believe his reign will be affected by all that has gone before, and not for the better.
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  #727  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:20 PM
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I realise this is a controversial position, but I do believe his reign will be affected by all that has gone before, and not for the better.
Unfortunately, for the most part what is remembered about Charles stems from the tabloid fodder that has plagued him in his private life and most of the important things that he has accomplished and is still trying to accomplish are overshadowed by this. I adamantly refuse to let the incident of the "tampax conversation" to color my views of the PoW as IMO that conversation was a very private one and should have never have been published for all and sundry to cackle over.

Just yesterday I let my fingers do the walking browsing for a good book to read. For some reason, the book I was looking for was "Harmony, A New Way of Looking at Our World" written by Charles. I have not purchased the book as of yet, but it will definitely be my next purchased. What totally amazed me is that wherever I looked for book reviews, readers from all over the world have given this book a 5 star rating with glowing feedback. I am looking forward to reading this as it will give a good look at things through the eyes of Charles himself.

Has anyone read this book already?
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  #728  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:31 PM
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Aliza, with the leniency of today's treatment of infidelities, multiple marriages and divorces, children born out of wedlock, etc., etc., etc., how could you possibly fault Charles? He is merely human, made more human by his mistakes. I don't think his personal history has any bearing on what kind of King he will be.
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  #729  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Unfortunately, for the most part what is remembered about Charles stems from the tabloid fodder that has plagued him in his private life and most of the important things that he has accomplished and is still trying to accomplish are overshadowed by this. I adamantly refuse to let the incident of the "tampax conversation" to color my views of the PoW as IMO that conversation was a very private one and should have never have been published for all and sundry to cackle over.

Just yesterday I let my fingers do the walking browsing for a good book to read. For some reason, the book I was looking for was "Harmony, A New Way of Looking at Our World" written by Charles. I have not purchased the book as of yet, but it will definitely be my next purchased. What totally amazed me is that wherever I looked for book reviews, readers from all over the world have given this book a 5 star rating with glowing feedback. I am looking forward to reading this as it will give a good look at things through the eyes of Charles himself.

Has anyone read this book already?
I also mentioned the Dimbleby book and interview, which was entirely self-inflicted and which led to the divorce of Andrew and Camilla. I agree the tampax conversation should not have been published; but it was, and this has an effect on how the general public (not monarchists or royal watchers) view Charles and IMHO, it will therefore colour his reign.
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  #730  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
Aliza, with the leniency of today's treatment of infidelities, multiple marriages and divorces, children born out of wedlock, etc., etc., etc., how could you possibly fault Charles? He is merely human, made more human by his mistakes. I don't think his personal history has any bearing on what kind of King he will be.
I don't believe in the leniency of today. And I think many people are appalled by it, they just tend to be more quiet than the "liberal" (in the American definition) crowd.

Of course, he is human. But a King is elevated by society and should therefore attempt to elevate his behaviour to match IMHO. It's not the time of the Abdication Crisis, but that time is not SO far away, either.

I think his personal history will colour peoples views of his reign, as I posted above, I'm not speaking of monarchists nor of royalty watchers, just the average person who doesn't pay much attention to these things. IMHO, anyone literate in the 90's will forever associate Charles with the Camillagate conversation. (I really don't want to write that "t" word, again!)

Perhaps this would be a good reason for him to reign as George VII, as has been suggested by many, though not for this reason.
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  #731  
Old 08-09-2011, 06:23 PM
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Yes, but it has already coloured many people's view of Charles for the worse.

I'm afraid I'm still praying for the Queen to live as long as her mother, so that we won't have to have Charles as king for a looooong time to come !
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  #732  
Old 08-09-2011, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Aliza View Post
I don't believe in the leniency of today. And I think many people are appalled by it, they just tend to be more quiet than the "liberal" (in the American definition) crowd.

Of course, he is human. But a King is elevated by society and should therefore attempt to elevate his behaviour to match IMHO. It's not the time of the Abdication Crisis, but that time is not SO far away, either.

I think his personal history will colour peoples views of his reign, as I posted above, I'm not speaking of monarchists nor of royalty watchers, just the average person who doesn't pay much attention to these things. IMHO, anyone literate in the 90's will forever associate Charles with the Camillagate conversation. (I really don't want to write that "t" word, again!)

Perhaps this would be a good reason for him to reign as George VII, as has been suggested by many, though not for this reason.
I don't find it at all appalling that society has evolved to recognize that human relationships are complex and that love can exist in a lot of different ways. I actually find it a bit appalling that people are still willing to pass judgment on someone for leaving an unhappy marriage. A lot of ugly things happened in the marriage of Prince Charles and Diana but I think it's pretty well recognized at this point that both people contributed to that unhappiness and that casting blame on one person or the other is really unfair. Prince Charles made a lot of mistakes during that time period, but I think it just shows that he's a regular human being, and I don't think it's fair to expect him to be anything else.

And his professional achievements really are astounding. And I love the nickname "Charles the Green"!

(Also, the "t" word? As I read that, I had a vision of a Victorian schoolmarm, pursed lips and all.)
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  #733  
Old 08-09-2011, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I don't find it at all appalling that society has evolved to recognize that human relationships are complex and that love can exist in a lot of different ways. I actually find it a bit appalling that people are still willing to pass judgment on someone for leaving an unhappy marriage. A lot of ugly things happened in the marriage of Prince Charles and Diana but I think it's pretty well recognized at this point that both people contributed to that unhappiness and that casting blame on one person or the other is really unfair. Prince Charles made a lot of mistakes during that time period, but I think it just shows that he's a regular human being, and I don't think it's fair to expect him to be anything else.

And his professional achievements really are astounding. And I love the nickname "Charles the Green"!

(Also, the "t" word? As I read that, I had a vision of a Victorian schoolmarm, pursed lips and all.)
The "Victorian schoolmarm" just made my day!

And BTW - please point out to me exactly where I judged Charles for leaving a "bad marriage"?

Some of us, regardless of age, still have a liking for a sense of decorum. While I don't try and foist it on anyone else, I still maintain that some decorum leads to a more civilised society and more civilised debate, in particular.

I'm glad you think Charles will make a good King. I, personally hope he makes a good king, too. No monarchist wants to see that institution damaged, no matter personal feelings about the characters of those involved.
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  #734  
Old 08-09-2011, 09:36 PM
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There is always luck involved, for sure. But, I for one, enjoy watching that process play itself out - with historical documentation and the historical commentary of contemporaries (we on the Royal Forums are now part of that documentation).

Just to stay even, with the rest of society, is an amazing accomplishment (speaking historically). So many nations have discarded their royals (killed them, actually - and of course, it's not true that England has always spared its monarchs). But the surviving ones have had to adapt and I learn from that process. Anyone who follows royals/nobility learns from that process.

I for one want to hang on to what I have, as well - and leave it to my children. It's a very strong human impulse. I do not feel as strongly about my cousin's children - and it will be interesting to see Charles enact his own policies regarding royals (but I hope we wait as long as possible to see what he will do - because HM is an amazing model, right in front of us).
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  #735  
Old 08-09-2011, 09:40 PM
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P.S. as to Charles and Diana: they may have each had their part in it, but so did the erst of the world, I believe. We people (some more than others) had our part in making their marriage a very hard one. Mostly, the technological changes of the time made it hard - but there are real human actors behind those changes. Our insatiable and very human desire for more knowledge didn't help those two, at all.

If my husband had an affair, it would be one thing. If that affair was hacked into by tabloids, that would make it oh so much worse.
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  #736  
Old 08-09-2011, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
P.S. as to Charles and Diana: they may have each had their part in it, but so did the erst of the world, I believe. We people (some more than others) had our part in making their marriage a very hard one. Mostly, the technological changes of the time made it hard - but there are real human actors behind those changes. Our insatiable and very human desire for more knowledge didn't help those two, at all.

If my husband had an affair, it would be one thing. If that affair was hacked into by tabloids, that would make it oh so much worse.
I think you have posted a very worthwhile and true reflection on the roles the media and those who used the media outlets to sate their desire for knowledge on the PoW and Diana.

In the Panorama interview, Diana herself mentioned the press as one of the two major reasons the relationship didn't work.

Unfortunately, it all led to that scene in Paris in 1997. Since then, I give no one a pass who purchases or views intrusive media into anyone's private lives. But most people have learned nothing from Diana's death or the destruction of her and Charles' marriage. Just check out the threads on the new Princely couple of Monaco; they are rife with speculation about beds, hotels, nighties, manners of possible conceptions, etc. Some things should be kept private, private, private.

Charles as King would have had a more easy task if there had not been such intrusive media into his life. It is not fair to him that the media has given him such a handicap when almost every other PoW behaved as he did and nothing was printed. It would be nice if all that could be forgotten and he could assume the Throne with a "fresh slate". Unfortunately, human nature doesn't work that way.

I hope he surmounts these difficulties and I believe both of William's parents' experience with the media will help William become a very good king. I hope Charles has enough time on the Throne (but not soon; I want the Queen to reign as long as possible and pray HM outlives her mother!) to demonstrate to William how to incorporate these experiences as a king, which will be different in the "Top Job", as Diana called it, than it was and is as a Prince and a Royal Duke.
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  #737  
Old 08-09-2011, 10:28 PM
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I don't believe in the leniency of today. And I think many people are appalled by it, they just tend to be more quiet than the "liberal" (in the American definition) crowd.

I think his personal history will colour peoples views of his reign, as I posted above, I'm not speaking of monarchists nor of royalty watchers, just the average person who doesn't pay much attention to these things. IMHO, anyone literate in the 90's will forever associate Charles with the Camillagate conversation.
In many ways, Charles will be the first modern monarch, given his personal history - while at the same time being the last of the old order - it seems to me that he carries the sensibilities of the 'way it was'. He is positioned between two worlds and beholds them both.

The conversation with Camilla was a conversation between lovers - we all say our little things to each other - would any of our 'little nothings' sustain international broadcast? Probably not. There is nothing peculiar about what they were saying - they were having a joke with each other - a little bit of 'phone sex' - you can hear them smiling and laughing - that's it - we've all done it - we all know those little things we say - its no big deal. Its embarrassing to have these things broadcast but that's as far as it goes. The content was not really 'appalling'. It has its own little charm, in fact. Every man knows what Charles was talking about - its not a big deal and will not impact his reign.
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Old 08-09-2011, 10:44 PM
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In many ways, Charles will be the first modern monarch, given his personal history - while at the same time being the last of the old order - it seems to me that he carries the sensibilities of the 'way it was'. He is positioned between two worlds and beholds them both.

The conversation with Camilla was a conversation between lovers - we all say our little things to each other - would any of our 'little nothings' sustain international broadcast? Probably not. There is nothing peculiar about what they were saying - they were having a joke with each other - a little bit of 'phone sex' - you can hear them smiling and laughing - that's it - we've all done it - we all know those little things we say - its no big deal. Its embarrassing to have these things broadcast but that's as far as it goes. The content was not really 'appalling'. It has its own little charm, in fact. Every man knows what Charles was talking about - its not a big deal and will not impact his reign.
I fully agree with you on almost all your points. Where I disagree is this: It will impact his reign only because it will impact the perception of his reign. I don't think that's fair, but I do believe it's human nature. Just like most jurors make up their minds during opening arguments, so too do most of the general public form their opinions on people like Charles based on those items that stand out in their minds, via the media which is often biased and unfair.

I would be happy to be proven wrong. Whilst I may be the "old fashioned" type, I don't seek to impose my views on others and I do believe people are entitled to second chances; plenty of second chances in this arena, for sure! (The arena of criminal acts is somewhat different and of course, doesn't apply here.)

Some of it depends on when he ascends the throne and how much of the generation that remembers the "war of the Waleses" is still around and influential.

Again, I hope Charles gets a fresh slate to begin with as king and I hope that the "sins of the past", to use an old expression, are not held against him in any way, shape or form. I do not have a "black and white" opinion about Charles, Camilla, Diana or anyone else. I think sometimes people read the gist of the posts but not the "fine print" and oftentimes misconstrue what is being said. (I"m not referring to you, here - just mean it generally speaking)
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Old 08-09-2011, 11:20 PM
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I fully agree with you on almost all your points. Where I disagree is this: It will impact his reign only because it will impact the perception of his reign. I don't think that's fair, but I do believe it's human nature.
I'm not sure I'm really getting your point. For example: the Queen had sex - we know that because she had 4 children. Did her having sex and having an intimate life with chit-chat impact the perception of her reign? No.

I don't get it. The Charles and Camilla tape was no one's business and I think most people get that - and feel sympathy for them - for any 'celebrity' who has their sex life dragged into the public eye for scrutiny and - I like the work - cackle. Voyeurism!

I don't think anyone judges anyone for sex stuff. Is the public like children who hear about sex for the first time and cannot believe their parents 'did that'? Do you really believe people in general are that 'innocent' these days? I really do not think most people give it a second thought.
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Old 08-10-2011, 12:10 AM
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Some of us, regardless of age, still have a liking for a sense of decorum. While I don't try and foist it on anyone else, I still maintain that some decorum leads to a more civilised society and more civilised debate, in particular.
Whatever else was happening in the world, the mere idea that the meltdown of the marriage of Charles and Diana would have been allowed any degree of decorum whatsoever is much akin to believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden!

The media was too invested, literally, to leave it alone. The demise of NOTW proved nothing if not that people generally and the law in particular, are no longer willing to tolerate illegal intrusions into anyone's life once it impacted on "innocent bystanders".

These activities may lead to a more private and decent world for everyone if the penalty for crossing the line is jail. We never know, maybe there'll be an outbreak of actual news! Perhaps the wide-reaching and significant accomplishments of the heir to the throne will actually make it into print.
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I'm glad you think Charles will make a good King. I, personally hope he makes a good king, too. No monarchist wants to see that institution damaged, no matter personal feelings about the characters of those involved.
Being a reasonable adult and allowing for the passage of time I look back on the excesses of the media and cringe. Charles will make a wonderful King. Why should he not? He has worked incredibly hard to make the world a better place as Prince of Wales which is more than many of us can say of ourselves.
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