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  #2961  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Nonetheless, as Princess Consort, she won"t be crowned as she would be as Queen; she won"t use the predicate HM and foreign HRHs won"t curtsy to her as they would to a Queen. Basically, as PC, she will have the rank and precedence that Philip has or that Henrik had until recently in Denmark and we all know how Henrik felt about it and he wanted to be made King Consort instead.
Isn't it true also that in order to use the style of Princess Consort, Camilla would have to be made a Princess of the UK in her own right as Charles, being King, will not have a princely title for his wife to take the feminine version. Her style then would be Princess Consort but she would also be Princess Camilla.

I don't believe that there's ever been a female spouse that has be created a princess in her own right in the UK. In reality, doing this would be conferring an honor on Camilla that no other spouse has ever had. There is, however, the case of Princess Alexandra who was able to revert to using Princess Alexandra of Kent after the death of her husband, Sir Angus Ogilvy. Difference being that Alexandra was the granddaughter of a King.

It would be so much easier and less worrisome to sort out to just declare Camilla as Queen Consort when Charles becomes King and let the chips fall where they may.
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  #2962  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Isn't it true also that in order to use the style of Princess Consort, Camilla would have to be made a Princess of the UK in her own right as Charles, being King, will not have a princely title for his wife to take the feminine version. Her style then would be Princess Consort but she would also be Princess Camilla.

I don't believe that there's ever been a female spouse that has be created a princess in her own right in the UK. In reality, doing this would be conferring an honor on Camilla that no other spouse has ever had. There is, however, the case of Princess Alexandra who was able to revert to using Princess Alexandra of Kent after the death of her husband, Sir Angus Ogilvy. Difference being that Alexandra was the granddaughter of a King.

It would be so much easier and less worrisome to sort out to just declare Camilla as Queen Consort when Charles becomes King and let the chips fall where they may.
Louise, Princess Royal and Duchess of Fife two daughters were made princesses in their own right with the style Highness .

and princess alexandra never chose or was obliged to discontinue the use of the title and style of Princess and royal Highness upon marriage .

edit : i missed the word female ' spouse ' when i written the response but now think you were right on this issue .
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  #2963  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:41 AM
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The one difference though between the ladies that you mentioned and Camilla, though, would be the ladies that you cited were born from the royal bloodline albeit the Fife daughters from a female line.

We're getting off topic of the monarchy under Charles a bit though and perhaps the moderators could deem it worthwhile to open up the Title for Camilla thread that was closed down in 2011 (after reaching part 4). New people have since joined and perhaps this conversation could be continued there? Its an interesting thread to read though still.

Will and should Camilla use the title of Queen when Charles becomes King?

I do think, however, that when Charles is King, Camilla will be his Queen.
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  #2964  
Old 02-24-2017, 03:57 PM
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One thing not mentioned in this most recent discussion was Tony Blair's comment in the parliament - that 'yes Camilla was going to be Princess of Wales but wasn't going to use that title and that yes she would be Queen Consort and that parliament would have to pass legislation to strip her of that right for her to be known as Princess Consort.' That was a week or so before the wedding.

She won't have to be a Princess of the UK in her own right to be Princess Consort. Prince Albert was never a Prince of the UK and was Prince Consort. Philip, although never having the title as Prince Consort with capital letters, he too was the Consort of the monarch without being a Prince of the UK for 5 years.
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  #2965  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:36 PM
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Prior to marriage, Philip was a Prince in his own right as indeed was Prince Albert. Camilla was neither and as she takes her title from Charles, its a problem because when he becomes King, all his secondary titles devolve to Prince William.
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  #2966  
Old 02-24-2017, 10:45 PM
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What would really be odd is to solve it all in the most generic way. When Charles becomes King, Camilla then becomes Mrs. King.
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  #2967  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Prior to marriage, Philip was a Prince in his own right as indeed was Prince Albert. Camilla was neither and as she takes her title from Charles, its a problem because when he becomes King, all his secondary titles devolve to Prince William.
Philip had given up being a prince prior to his marriage and was only created a Prince of the UK by The Queen in 1957 by LPs. At the time of his marriage he was plain Lt Philip Mountbatten.

There is clear evidence that even George VI no longer saw Philip as a Prince as there was an entry made in the shooting book at either Sandringham or Balmoral where someone wrote in 'Prince Philip' and George crossed out the word 'Prince'.

Albert was never a Prince of the UK.

That is a clear point.

The fact that The Queen gave Philip the title of Prince of the UK, after he had voluntarily given up the title of Prince, is relevant to Camilla being created a Princess of the UK in her own right - her father-in-law had that title bestowed on him so why not on her?
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  #2968  
Old 02-25-2017, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The one difference though between the ladies that you mentioned and Camilla, though, would be the ladies that you cited were born from the royal bloodline albeit the Fife daughters from a female line.

Will and should Camilla use the title of Queen when Charles becomes King?

I do think, however, that when Charles is King, Camilla will be his Queen.
YES OF course she will and she will be crowned as queen if he is crowned King. Which being a traditionalist he's sure to want. As his wife, she IS princess of Wales, she just does not use that title out of deference to Diana. I think that the Princess Consort thing was just there to try and soften things for ardentn Diana fans, who didn't like the thought of her being queen.. but it is going to happen...
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  #2969  
Old 02-25-2017, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
[...] because when he becomes King, all his secondary titles devolve to Prince William.
The King has secondary titles as well, for an example Duke of Lancaster. And of course he -fons honorum- can create peerages and/or bestow titles:

"The King has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm bearing date [dd mm yy], to give and grant unto the most honourable Dame Camilla Rosemary Mountbatten-Windsor GCVO the style and titular dignity of a Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The King has been pleased to declare his will and pleasure that the most honourable Dame Camilla Rosemary Mountbatten-Windsor GCVO shall henceforth be known as Her Royal Highness The Princess Camilla."

:-)
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  #2970  
Old 02-25-2017, 03:26 AM
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To do that first off parliament has to pass legislation stripping her of the title of Queen. Otherwise it is unnecessary to grant her a lower title to the one that she would hold as the equal partner of the King.

What being Princess Consort means is that the marriage is morganatic - something that it was decided in 1936 wasn't possible in British/English law.
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  #2971  
Old 02-25-2017, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Isn't it true also that in order to use the style of Princess Consort, Camilla would have to be made a Princess of the UK in her own right as Charles, being King, will not have a princely title for his wife to take the feminine version. Her style then would be Princess Consort but she would also be Princess Camilla.
Have to be? I don't think so. As far as I know, under English law, anybody can call themselves HRH the Princess Consort so long as it's not done for fraudulent purposes. They don't even have to go down the route of letters patent. If the Palace simply releases a statement saying that Camilla "wishes to be known as HRH the Princess Consort," and people call her HRH the Princess Consort, then for all intents and purposes she is HRH the Princess Consort. Someone's wish to be called something can't be illegal, so unless the government were prepared to force the issue, I think it would have to end there, and whatever one thinks of Camilla I think it's safe to say that there won't be a populist uprising pushing the government to demand a crown on her head.

And Britain doesn't have morganatic marriages, but that doesn't place a mandate on a woman to use her husband's title. Married women have the same rights as everyone else to decide what they call themselves. The Duchess of Kent doesn't violate the law by asking people to call her Katharine Kent.

Again, I think it could become a political issue, with the government advising the King that his courtiers should not call his wife anything but HM the Queen...but that would be a political question, not a legal one, and I think it's unlikely that the politics of the issue would compel a government to act. I can think of no legal process that could compel a woman to call herself by her husband's title, and if one did exist, I can't imagine it would last long, because if HM the King's wife can be forced to call herself HM the Queen, then presumably Mr. John Smith's wife would be compelled to call herself the archaic Mrs. John Smith.
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  #2972  
Old 02-25-2017, 04:51 AM
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We see a similar situation in the Netherlands: Máxima legally is HRH Princes Máxima of the Netherlands but "is known as" Queen Máxima. The Dutch Government suddenly developed weak knees in 2013 and left their intention that the title of the spouse will be non-discriminatory and gender neutral: all consorts, male or female, have the title of Prince(ss).

When the dot came to the i, the Government thought it was "undesireable" that Máxima was known with a lesser title than the spouses of other Kings. (Why this undesireability did not stretch out to male spouses, was not mentioned...) and sadly they allowed the blurring of the in essence so logical, clear, gender-neutral and non-discriminatiory titulature coming with the Royal House Act 2002.

We will see this same phenomenon in politics in the UK. Despite earlier intentions, like in the Netherlands, the UK Government will not only point to legislation but also use the argument that it would be "undesireable" that the spouse of the British King is "lower" than other spouses of Kings. Mark my words. To the left, to the right, despite earlier intentions, Camilla will be Queen.

It is a bit sad because with a Princess Lalla Salma, a Princess Máxima and a Princess Camilla it would become "normal" in modern monarchies with gender neutral successions that the consort, no matter the gender, is a Prince or Princess in their own right.
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  #2973  
Old 02-25-2017, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
Mr. John Smith's wife would be compelled to call herself the archaic Mrs. John Smith.
She does if she wants to attend many events such as Royal Ascot e.g. Carole Middleton is clearly seen being titled as Mrs Michael Middleton when she attend there while Zara Tindall is shown as Mrs Michael Tindall at the same events.

Calling herself Mrs Zara Tindall actually says she is divorced - like Sarah, Duchess of York.

Archaic - maybe but still correct form.
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  #2974  
Old 02-25-2017, 05:00 AM
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Royal Ascot changed the rules on that last year. Married women may now use their own names. They had to have been one of the last institutions to insist on that.

In any case, just as the law doesn't require a woman to use a particular name or title, it also doesn't require that anyone else refrain from using it.
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  #2975  
Old 02-25-2017, 05:15 AM
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The fact is no one knows what will happen when the Queen dies and Charles becomes King, who knows what Camilla's title will be? Quite on purpose IMO Clarence House has been vague on the issue and I don't blame them for this, why make a statement that might in a few years seem out of touch?

The facts are Charles will be King, Camilla will become Queen. The fact is she will only lose the title if Parliament takes it off her.

Anything else is speculation. And I personally speculate that Parliament is not going to get involved in taking the title of Queen away from her. I suspect most politicians don't want to been seen as petty enough to take the title of the wife of the new King for something that happened decades before.

I'm not getting into the they were right or wrong/Diana was right or wrong debate, I'm saying most politicians would run a mile rather than getting involved in this.

I really don't think Parliament will get involved in this so Camilla will still be legally called Queen....whether she uses it or not will be for her and Charles to decide and that's the part no one knows. I suspect at worst we will be in the same position as now...Camilla is legally Princess of Wales but uses a lesser title, she would legally be Queen but use a lesser title by choice.

Just completely personally I really don't see why Camilla should not be Queen. By the time the Queen died she will probably have been married to Charles for just as long if not longer than Diana was and whatever else you think of her as a person she has done a decent job as a member of the RF. I also worry about the precedence it sets for future consorts - when they aren't popular enough we take the title off them? Its like when people turned against the Queen in the wake of Diana's death and there were suggestions she should abdicate, looking back on that now it seems ridiculous and shows that people shouldn't try and make decisions based purely on personal emotions at the time.
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  #2976  
Old 02-25-2017, 05:31 AM
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Yes, I'd be very surprised if this went as far as legislation. It's simply not necessary, IMO.

(And whatever happens, I expect it to be presented as a fait accompli on day one. I don't think this is going to be any kind of deliberative process. The decision will be made, and the justification will fit the decision rather than the other way around. And there are sound arguments on both sides, so they won't even have to reach.)
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  #2977  
Old 02-25-2017, 05:51 AM
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I think the justification will be a simple one. HM The King will be advised by his PM that his wife should be known as HM Queen Camilla.
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  #2978  
Old 02-25-2017, 06:00 AM
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Legally unless something is actively changed she will be the queen, but imo she herself would much rather be untitled or at most "just a duchess"; i don't think Camilla particularly is looking forward to be a "first lady" but will go along with it to support Charles
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  #2979  
Old 02-25-2017, 07:21 AM
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HM The King and HRH The Duchess of Lancaster
HM The Queen and HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
Not such a shocking difference to me.

The British, the Dutch and the Danes have experienced loooong periods with a male consort. Seeing Victoria, Ingrid Alexandra, Elisabeth, Estelle, Leonor and Catharina-Amalia, the male consort will become the new norm in the foreseeable future. It would be trendsetting for the UK to make the title of the spouse gender neutral. Otherwise we keep the discussion why male spouses are no Kings but female spouses are.
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  #2980  
Old 02-25-2017, 06:41 PM
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I think that, when the Queen disappears, people in UK will be too sad and upset to grant any importance to things like titles and so on.
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