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  #2781  
Old 12-22-2016, 04:11 PM
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Hmm...

I believe the invitees to Sandringham tend to be the Queen and DoE's children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren and their spouses, as well as Princess Margaret's children and grandchildren. The big BP dinner includes the same group, but also the Gloucesters and Kents (side note - does anyone know if any of the Lascelles family ever went to this before the deaths of the Queen's cousins?).

I wouldn't be surprised if this remained somewhat the status quo for at least a bit into Charles' reign (depending on when he becomes King). I think what will more happen is that Charles' cousins and siblings will continue to be invited to Sandringham until their own families begin to grow more - until Andrew, Edward and Sophie, David and Serena Armstrong-Jones, and Sarah and Daniel Chatto become grandparents, at which point I think we'll begin to see them doing something more with their immediate families as opposed to the big shindig at Sandringham.

For Camilla's family... I'm not inclined to believe that they have been excluded by the Queen so much as a decision was made by multiple parties that they wouldn't be there at Christmas. Consider - when Camilla and Charles married in 2005, Camilla's son was 30 and her daughter 27. Both would get married to their own spouses within a year. They likely already had their own Christmas traditions with their father and significant others established by then.

I would think that Charles and Camilla already do something for Christmas with her children and grandchildren, just not on Christmas Day.
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  #2782  
Old 12-22-2016, 06:55 PM
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Camilla leaves Sandringham after the Queen's speech on TV to have Christmas evening with her own children and grandchildren. Charles usually leaves about the same time to have time by himself in Scotland.

The Christmas family get together at Sandringham is about 24 hours.

Andrew and the girls also leave late Christmas afternoon to go to Sarah.

Only the Wessexes stay for an extended period of time every year.
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  #2783  
Old 12-22-2016, 08:14 PM
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Thank you, Bertie. I was pretty sure Camilla did something with her family at some point on either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day, but couldn't remember exactly what.
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  #2784  
Old 12-23-2016, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Camilla leaves Sandringham after the Queen's speech on TV to have Christmas evening with her own children and grandchildren. Charles usually leaves about the same time to have time by himself in Scotland.

The Christmas family get together at Sandringham is about 24 hours.

Andrew and the girls also leave late Christmas afternoon to go to Sarah.

Only the Wessexes stay for an extended period of time every year.
I think Charles is usually around for a bit longer, usually the shoots around Boxing Day, and possibly longer, before going to Scotland, with Camilla, for New Years Eve.

I am not sure when Andrew and or his daughters leave, and if they still have Sarah tucked away at a cottage on the estate.
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  #2785  
Old 12-23-2016, 06:43 AM
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It is the Queen's longevity on the throne that throws things changing off. You would have to go back to the time of George VI to see who was there, besides Queen Mary, and she could have been pacified with additional relatives, to see who was at Sandringham, then who was excluded with the new queen. If it was G6, QE, probable QM and the two princess, you can expect the extended family of Charles' siblings to be excluded, maybe not immediately, but shortly.
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  #2786  
Old 12-23-2016, 02:50 PM
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: Photo

The attendees of the 1951 Christmas celebration. This is the last Christmas before the death of King George IV.

Queen Mary, Gloucester and Kent families were there in addition to the immediate family.

I also found a picture of the Duchess of Kent walking to church with family in 1988.
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  #2787  
Old 12-23-2016, 03:44 PM
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There are plenty of videos of the RF celebrating Christmas at Windsor before the fire, maybe Charles will go back to this with more royals in attendance before a quiet rest of the Christmas break at Sandringham or Balmoral? It does go to show though that whilst most people now think the Queen always goes to Sandringham for Christmas and that its a long standing royal tradition, in fact new traditions are started all the time.

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  #2788  
Old 12-23-2016, 06:22 PM
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I think Charles will reduce the number of royals at Sandringham to just William and Harry, their spouses and Camilla's family.

I don't expect he will have his siblings or his cousins there at all - nor do I expect them to be on the balcony or events like that either.

I do think he intends on reducing the visible size of the royal family as that is what he believes the British people want (whether it is or not I don't know).

I suspect he may continue the 'extended family' Christmas lunch so he has his siblings and their families for a Christmas get-together but also setting up the scenario to follow with the visible family - the one that appears in public and on public occasions to be simply the direct descendants of the monarch of the day and when only an uncle or an aunt or cousin they disappear from the public view.
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  #2789  
Old 12-23-2016, 06:36 PM
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For me, looking at this scenario you've presented, I can almost hear a subtle sigh of relief as the siblings of Charles realize that they can now be relieved of the "duty Christmas" at Sandringham and pursue making their own memories with their own families. Its one thing to attend when the focus is on their parents but when it comes to attending a brother's Christmas celebrations, its a different ball of wax.

Time changes things.
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  #2790  
Old 12-23-2016, 07:24 PM
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Camilla's children have their own father and in-laws to celebrate Christmas.
And Charles has good relation with all his extended family.
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  #2791  
Old 12-23-2016, 07:41 PM
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My point was that, for example, Anne. Christmas at Sandringham today means spending Christmas with her mother and father and her siblings. In Charles' reign, I think she would be most likely be happier being the Grand Matriarch herself with her own kids and grandkids around her than attending her brother's celebrations at Sandringham.

Its the passage of time and how families grow and what was close and immediate then may not be next year.
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  #2792  
Old 12-23-2016, 07:45 PM
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Does he? We have had stories for years that he has issues with each of his siblings. Sure Andrew denied a rift this year - but was that for PR purposes or for real? We don't know.

Charles could easily have Andrew Parker-Bowles and Camilla's children and grandchildren at Sandringham rather than his siblings and assorted nieces and nephews.

That would make more sense in many ways. Why should Camilla be denied the right to see her own children and grandchildren just so Charles' brothers and sister and their children (who also have their own in-laws etc with whom they have rarely, if ever, had Christmas since joining the royal family).

Do you really think Camilla will still have to leave Sandringham on Christmas Day to see her own family when she is the Princess Consort? That would obviously also mean that everyone else had to leave other than William and Harry and their families - but William is making it clear he has no intention of spending every Christmas at Sandringham and then Harry will follow William's lead. That would probably see a situation arise whereby Charles is alone at Sandringham from around about 4.00 on Christmas Day - solution - have Camilla's family join his at Sandringham.
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  #2793  
Old 12-23-2016, 08:00 PM
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Previous ..sounds like nearly all families and christmas. Which side will they go too who's upset because they have gone to other side who thinks it's time to start their own christmas tradition etc etc


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  #2794  
Old 12-23-2016, 08:01 PM
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The fact remains that any Christmas celebration (or any other holiday for that matter) is centered on the monarch as far as I've seen.

There's a reason for the "extended" family get together beforehand. All close connections gather together and then off they go to their own specific family gatherings.

Whether or not Camilla's kids, grandkids and ex husband participate at Sandringham celebrations is as it alway is. At the monarch's discretion. For all we know, Charles probably would prefer to enjoy a night with Andrew Parker-Bowles much more than he does with his brother Andrew.

25 years from now, we may see the same with George preferring to spend time with his wife's family every other year than with Grandpa Charles (ok.. relying on longevity here).

Reminds me of the first Christmas I was married to my ex. We told his family we were going to my family and told my family we were going to his. Stayed home and had pizza and played cards with friends. Go figure.

ETA: Another point to make that I just thought of that might put this thread back on the topic is what constitutes a monarch's holiday celebrations and hiatuses do not actually apply to the monarchy. Its their own private times away with whom they wish to spend it with. We may, in the future, never ever see a PM spend time at Balmoral ever again because with Charles, they hear enough from him already and will gracefully decline the invite. Who knows??
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  #2795  
Old 12-23-2016, 09:10 PM
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Just one tiny query on that, as I don't have my Sandringham and the Royals book handy. I know Queen Victoria insisted on all her children, grandchildren and their spouses and families spending Christmas with her at Windsor if they possibly could, but what about later royals? Did King George V invite his siblings and their families, and the Yorks and the Lascelles and Fifes to Sandringham Christmases? Did the Queen's father when monarch have the Kents, Gloucesters and the Princess Royal and family and also cousins from his father's side (the Fifes?) to stay each Christmastime? Or is this a reasonably new tradition, confined to this reign.
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  #2796  
Old 12-23-2016, 10:14 PM
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I think, looking at the reign of HM, that longevity has played a big part. Although we kind of expect that the Christmas Eve is strictly immediate family of the Queen, since she became the monarch, her family has spread and branched out quite substantially.

George VI was 56 when he died. George V was 70 and was the founder of the actual House of Windsor. He had grandchildren but if memory serves me right, no great grandkids when he was alive. George V had 6 children. George VI had 2. Some descendants (grandchildren) of George V are still alive and kicking and part of the Windsor extended family. Descendants and grandchildren of George VI make up a lot of the extended family now too.

With HM, The Queen reaching 90, her immediate family has burst into a lot of branches on the family tree extending to great grandchildren. Everyone loves Gan-Gan and she's a true matriarch of her family and its her family that surrounds her. Not by royal command or because of protocol or tradition but actually because they want to be there and do make time for her. I would bet my last jog to put in the nog that HM would be as happy to have the Tindall great grand kids and Phillip great grandkids there as much as the Cambridge great grand kids.

Its not about the monarchy nor tradition or how other members do it. Its all about family.
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  #2797  
Old 12-23-2016, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Just one tiny query on that, as I don't have my Sandringham and the Royals book handy. I know Queen Victoria insisted on all her children, grandchildren and their spouses and families spending Christmas with her at Windsor if they possibly could, but what about later royals? Did King George V invite his siblings and their families, and the Yorks and the Lascelles and Fifes to Sandringham Christmases? Did the Queen's father when monarch have the Kents, Gloucesters and the Princess Royal and family and also cousins from his father's side (the Fifes?) to stay each Christmastime? Or is this a reasonably new tradition, confined to this reign.

I'm not sure if you've mixed up the siblings of Georges V and VI or if I've misread your post, so I'm just going to add this to clarify who we're discussing:

George V's siblings were Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence (died in 1892), Louise, Princess Royal and Duchess of Fife, Victoria (never married), Maud, Queen of Norway, and Alexander (died at birth). His mother, Queen Alexandra, died in 1925. I don't know if Louise and her family did Christmas at Sandringham. I would assume that Victoria did - she lived with her mother up until her mother's death and is described as having been close with her brother. I would assume that as the wife of a foreign monarch, Maud did Christmas in Norway.

George VI's siblings were Edward VIII, Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood, Henry, Duke of Gloucester, George, Duke of Kent, and Prince John (died in 1919). His mother, Queen Mary, outlived him. I don't know about every year, but Kyle posted a picture of the last Christmas at Sandringham under George VI (in 1951). The then Duke and Duchess of Gloucester and Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, their children (the Queen's cousins), and Queen Mary are all present. Not pictured is the Lascelles family so I'm not sure if they weren't there, or if they were there but were excluded from the photo.

This is a guess on my part, but I'm kind of inclined to believe that having at least most of the siblings if not necessarily all of the monarch and their children at Sandringham (or Windsor for the years it was done there) is something of a BRF tradition.
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  #2798  
Old 12-23-2016, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
George VI was 56 when he died. George V was 70 and was the founder of the actual House of Windsor. He had grandchildren but if memory serves me right, no great grandkids when he was alive. George V had 6 children. George VI had 2. Some descendants (grandchildren) of George V are still alive and kicking and part of the Windsor extended family. Descendants and grandchildren of George VI make up a lot of the extended family now too.
George V's eldest great-grandchild is Prince Charles (1948), followed by Anne (1950), then the current Earl of Harewood (1950). His youngest great-grandchild is Lady Gabriella Windsor (1981), followed by Lady Rose Gilman (1980), then Lord Frederick Windsor (1979). George V has 6 great-great-grandchildren who are older than his youngest great-grandchild.
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  #2799  
Old 12-23-2016, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
My point was that, for example, Anne. Christmas at Sandringham today means spending Christmas with her mother and father and her siblings. In Charles' reign, I think she would be most likely be happier being the Grand Matriarch herself with her own kids and grandkids around her than attending her brother's celebrations at Sandringham.



Its the passage of time and how families grow and what was close and immediate then may not be next year.

Hmm. Perhaps. The siblings don't all seem too close.

But even Princess Margaret attended Christmas at Sandringham Evan in old age, no? Perhaps because of the Queen Mother, but perhaps because of the monarch.
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Old 12-23-2016, 11:35 PM
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I'm sure Margaret loved Christmases at Sandringham with her mother and sister, and the memories of when her father was alive. Of course, we have to remember Margaret was in quite bad health for the last few years of her life, so it was probably a relief to go to well-loved surroundings and not have to organise Christmas celebrations herself.

Anne of course is a little different. She's usually in excellent health, and I'm sure she can organise anything! She has a husband as well as children and grandchildren, so if she and her family is missed off the list to stay at Sandringham in the future Batcombe is an excellent alternative. All the same, I do think that most of the royals thoroughly enjoy their Christmas at Sandringham with all its traditions.
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