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  #2741  
Old 12-21-2016, 01:35 PM
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Oh, I don't know. I could see Charles spending a day in the garden then accidentally tracking the mud in...

What I found interesting about the article is that even within itself it seemed to realize that the idea of an immediate abdication is somewhat preposterous.

I think what people who want Charles to be bypassed fail to realize (other than just how logistically challenging such a bypass would be) is that Charles has spent literally his entire life preparing for this role and is one of the most active members of the BRF, while William is only part time. Say what you want about what that means, but I think a good argument could be made that William is not yet ready to be King and that bypassing Charles could very easily be a hindrance to the monarchy.
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Old 12-21-2016, 01:49 PM
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Of course Charles will be king but the he is the most 'experienced' heir in history argument to me is overrated. How does this experience translate in a parliamentary monarchy? Charles has no executive authority. Royal prerogative is exercised through government Ministers.

If William became King tomorrow he would have more experience than his grandmother when she came to the throne.
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Old 12-21-2016, 01:54 PM
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Oh, I don't know. I could see Charles spending a day in the garden then accidentally tracking the mud in...

What I found interesting about the article is that even within itself it seemed to realize that the idea of an immediate abdication is somewhat preposterous.

I think what people who want Charles to be bypassed fail to realize (other than just how logistically challenging such a bypass would be) is that Charles has spent literally his entire life preparing for this role and is one of the most active members of the BRF, while William is only part time. Say what you want about what that means, but I think a good argument could be made that William is not yet ready to be King and that bypassing Charles could very easily be a hindrance to the monarchy.
This is, in my opinion, exactly how they want things to be. To us, it looks like they're doing things backwards. A semi-retired life while young and then going into the full time job as they get older. I can imagine Charles telling his son "Grab what private life you can now as it won't always be this easy to do". HM, The Queen knows all too well how it is to be thrust into the top position at a relatively young age with virtually no experience and the cost that came with that in regards to her family and private life.

This is a family that over the decades has taken the experiences of being people that have learned the ropes by climbing them, set into motion plans that look to the future and cover just about anything that could happen. We are seeing more and more of a gentle transition between a monarch and her son and I'd bet my last sugar plum that this all wasn't planned yesterday. We also see William and Kate and Harry finding their own passions gradually and finding ways to work these passions into their royal public life that will serve them for the remainder of their life.

If something dire were to happen and William had to step up to be being a monarch, I think he'd do the very best he can. He learned at the knee of someone who had to do just that but other than the unplanned calamities that could happen, this is a family that doesn't do anything by half measures or are unprepared and when things are going according to plan, everything moves along the time line gracefully.

We just have to remember that public opinion doesn't really play into the scheme of things overly much and a huge hue and cry to bypass Charles and William for George just because he's so darned cute and winsome isn't going to float. Only thing that kind of press release would do is generate green dollars from the curious and not too overly bright people that would actually believe this nonsense.
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  #2744  
Old 12-21-2016, 02:39 PM
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Of course Charles will be king but the he is the most 'experienced' heir in history argument to me is overrated. How does this experience translate in a parliamentary monarchy? Charles has no executive authority. Royal prerogative is exercised through government Ministers.

If William became King tomorrow he would have more experience than his grandmother when she came to the throne.
That's not entirely what I'm trying to say.

For starters, in Charles we have a man who has been engaging with the public in various forms for 60+ years. He's had some highs, he's had some serious lows. He's done well in some ways and made some serious mistakes - but through it all he's weathered the storm. He's learned not to expect eternal love from the people, but he's also learned how to come back from being hated by them. This is something the Queen has also learned (although not to such a great extent), but is not yet something William has had to learn (and one would hope that he won't have to).

Secondly, in Charles we have a man who definitely comes across as one who has learned how to take great pride and pleasure out of royal engagements. I definitely don't think that he enjoys every engagement he does, but he's found a way to work what he's passionate about in life into his duties (through the Prince's Trust), while also doing the more "tedious" ones. He's shown himself to be a hard worker, and I think we can expect that to continue when he is King. Camilla certainly hasn't achieved as much in that regards, and likely never will, but I think she's also developed a good number of charities that she is passionate about and uses that to push her when she's doing the more "hum drum" type of engagements. I do think William is starting to find this - with Centrepoint, Tusk Trust, and Heads Together - but I also think that he puts a lot of his 'passions' towards things that aren't connected to his royal life - his children, his work with the EAAA, and previously his work with SAR. I don't think he should be denied this, but I do think that he would benefit from having more time not as the monarch to give himself more time to grow into his royal role. I also think that Kate will benefit from this (especially as the children age) and she has time to ease into her royal role.

Thirdly, Charles is going to have some authority, in a manner. The Queen does her red boxes almost every day of the year and meets with her Prime Minister weekly. If you think that doesn't hold any power you're naive. She might not be able to go "off with his head" and have that followed through, but she does have a voice that is listened to, which is in and of itself extremely powerful. Charles has experience with the red boxes and has been receiving his own version for a number of years now. He knows what's in them and what's expected of him when it comes to them. He might not be sitting in on the weekly meetings, but I have no doubt that he's been taught about what to expect from them, and I honestly think that the black spider memos are really just him as PoW engaging with members of the Government in a way not too dissimilar from how the Queen engages with her PM. I believe William is beginning to get his own red box equivalent, or at least training on them, but again I don't think it's comparable to the experience Charles already has.

Lastly, yes the Queen was younger than William is now when she became Queen. And I think it shows. If you look at the early years of her reign, while I think you can see some vitality to her reign that the end of her father's reign lacked, you can also see mistakes that she made largely because of her age. There are steps that she was forced into taking because she was a young, inexperienced woman up against a group of older, more tested men. There are times when you can clearly see her trying to force her own hand in issues, there are steps she made that you can see she was very likely overwhelmed with her role. Issues like the name of her House (and her children's surnames), the relationship of Princess Margaret and Peter Townsend, her role in the Suez crisis, the way her children were raised (particularly Charles and Anne), and the balance between being a mother and a monarch, even the alleged marital problems between the Queen and DoE during her early reign.... all of these very likely would have been handled differently had the Queen been older and more ready for her role when she became Queen. Now, of course we're not going to see some of these challenges during Charles' reign - due to his age, due to the way the world has changed in the last 60 years, due to his gender - but some of them are ones that William might be exposed to, which is why it would actually be beneficial to the monarchy to allow, if possible, William to grow as a person more, to allow his marriage to mature more, to allow his children to spend more of their lives not as the children of the King.

Older, more mature monarchs who have older children are better equipped, in my opinion, to provide stability to the monarchy than younger monarchs with younger children.
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  #2745  
Old 12-21-2016, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
This is, in my opinion, exactly how they want things to be. To us, it looks like they're doing things backwards. A semi-retired life while young and then going into the full time job as they get older. I can imagine Charles telling his son "Grab what private life you can now as it won't always be this easy to do". HM, The Queen knows all too well how it is to be thrust into the top position at a relatively young age with virtually no experience and the cost that came with that in regards to her family and private life.
I've snipped your post because I didn't want to quote a huge long thing, but I'm replying to the whole thing. I agree with much of what you've said, I do think that William's actions (along with Kate's, Harry's, Beatrice's, and Eugenie's) are very planned. I think William's being given the time to have a private life while he can still have a private life, which I think he should be allowed to do. I think he is going to have some hardships once he goes full time because of it, but I also think it's going to benefit him in the long run. I worry a bit that he's doing his children a bit of a disservice at times - sometimes I think he's hiding them a bit too much from the public eye, which can cause problems for them as they grow up (especially George) and are expected to become full time royals themselves. But I could be very wrong in that, and I do think we see more of a balance in that regards when they William and Kate are busier as royals, so with time that could change and they might achieve that perfect balance. I think William and Kate would be wise to look at how other European royals are raising their children, as well as how William himself was raised, and learn from the successes and failures there.

That said, I actually think the people who suffer the most from William's part time royal status the most are Kate, Harry, and Beatrice. I don't think Eugenie ever wants to be a full time working royal, everything in her actions as an adult suggests that she wants to be a working, private individual who attends the big family things and does the occasional royal duty - comparable to Prince and Princess Michael, the Phillips, the Tindalls, and what I think we can expect out of the Wessex children when they're adults. Beatrice, however, I think wants to be a working royal with only time telling whether or not such a role will ever exist for her - if there is a dramatic reduction of the size of the BRF and the number of duties it performs under Charles and William's reigns, then there won't be, but if there isn't, then she could very easily fill a role comparable to the Gloucesters, the Duke of Kent, or Princess Alexandra. Harry, I think has always known that in time he would become a full time royal and has kind of planned his life accordingly - and in another time, he would have easily filled his "part time" status in the military. But times have changed, the military and warfare have changed, and having him as an active member of the armed forces isn't a realistic possibility. I think him going to Afghanistan proved that. At the same time, Harry isn't cut out for a desk job in the military. Yet without the military, he faces a lot of criticism for not being a full time royal. Likewise, Kate developed this image of being "Waity Katie" when she was William's girlfriend that in some ways has been perpetuated by her slow transition into becoming a working royal. I definitely think she's going to benefit in a lot of ways from not having been thrown into the deep end, like Diana and Sarah were, but in the present the combination of her being a stay at home mom and her not having had a strong pre-marriage work experience makes her look work shy.

I think if William were a full time royal we would see a lot more out of Kate, Harry, and possibly even Beatrice, but because he isn't the three of them are in this weird position where they are trying to find their own way within royal life without overshadowing William who himself is only a part time royal. I think the three of them being part time still is very much by design because of William's status, and it's actually the one thing I question most about the path that the BRF is on right now.
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  #2746  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:17 PM
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thank you so much for this well thoughtout post.

You are right that William's status is having a direct impact on others. I'd realised that with Catherine but not Harry or Beatrice.

Hopefully this will resolve itself when (hopefully) he begins full time in September 2017
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  #2747  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:19 PM
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Everything I have seen or read about Prince Charles leads me to believe he'll be a very good king. Sure, he's made some mistakes in his private life, but he's certainly not the only one. He seems a very hard worker and cares about people, Britain, the Commonwealth, the Earth.

Regarding slimming down the Monarchy, i think everything more or less is just guesswork at this stage, but i am sure one thing will slim down – the annual extended family get-together, that we just saw a couple of days ago – that will just have to slim down, otherwise there will be hundreds and hundreds of living Royal descendants lunching together. I think there will be a rearrangement of who gets to be on the balcony at the Trooping too, but we will see. In saying that, i'm still interested in them all, and I'm more than happy to see lots of them on the balcony, not just the Top 7 (or 9, if counting George and Charlotte).
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  #2748  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:21 PM
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Monarchy in Britain has lots support. The main players for the most part are popular and well liked.

It makes no sense for the British royals to change their way of doing things or to become more 'European'

European royals should look to Britain if anything.

It's a game of hurry up and wait. As long as the Queen reigns there is going to be a bottleneck of royals below her.

If Princess Anne was 'allowed' to do more engagements than Charles, I don't see what's stopping Harry or Beatrice.
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  #2749  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:21 PM
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couldn't agree more especially the part about william part time role .
kate is royal for nearly 6 years now and still act like it's new to her and she want to take things slow .
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  #2750  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:28 PM
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From what I've seen lately, William and Kate are gearing up to full time royal work and as it becomes more and more evident that HM and the DoE are taking steps in order to "wind down", so will we see other members of the family gearing up. Its all part and parcel of transition.

One major thing though that I believe that has impacted the way things were is actually the longevity of the monarch and her consort. Reigning monarchs elsewhere don't really have expectations of roles for their grandchildren for the simple reason is that they are actually children. While it is very easy to picture George and Charlotte Cambridge as being the same generation as Estelle and Oscar Bernadotte of Sweden, the huge difference is that one set are grandchildren of a monarch while the other set are great grandchildren of the monarch. Estelle and Oscar are actually more on an equal basis with William and his cousins.

As far as raising George and Charlotte, I think both William and Kate face the same challenges most parents do. Finding the happy medium that is best for the kids and prepares them the best for adult life. All parents make mistakes along the line and its the mistakes that the children learn from and do differently with their own children. With being part of a royal family, the hard fact to swallow is that their children are not only entrusted to the parents to raise as happy, healthy adults but also ensure that these children can adjust and adapt to the royal fishbowl in the glare of the public limelight. Not an easy task at all and there is no "how to" book that promises excellent results.

Estelle is more likely to be thrust into the public limelight as Crown Princess Estelle and heir to the Swedish throne sooner than George will be as Prince of Wales and heir to the throne. Granddad still holds the PoW position and then there's dad that will follow granddad so George has a bit of breathing room there.

Just thoughts on how I somewhat understand things. Longevity really did make a huge impact I think on the British monarchy and I hope it continues to for a good, long time yet.
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  #2751  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:36 PM
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The thread is the Monarchy under Charles. Under Charles, William will be Duke of Cornwall and a 'full-time' royal.

Right now we're still the 'Monarchy under the Queen' and what William ,Catherine and Harry are doing now isn't what they'll be doing in the future.
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Old 12-21-2016, 04:54 PM
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If Princess Anne was 'allowed' to do more engagements than Charles, I don't see what's stopping Harry or Beatrice.

I disagree. I don't think Anne doing less than 20 more engagements than her brother, when they've each done more than 500 engagements (looking at last year's numbers) is a hugely noticeable difference. I do think Harry becoming a full time royal and doing 200+ engagements while William is only a part time royal doing ~100 engagements is something that would be critiqued.

There is also the fact that what counts as a royal engagement is determined by the Queen, as she controls the CC. There is a lot done by Beatrice that would likely get CC recognition if done by William or Catherine, but doesn't get CC recognition.

Quote:
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The thread is the Monarchy under Charles. Under Charles, William will be Duke of Cornwall and a 'full-time' royal.

Right now we're still the 'Monarchy under the Queen' and what William ,Catherine and Harry are doing now isn't what they'll be doing in the future.

But a way to guess at what will change is to look at how things are now...
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:06 PM
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I think if William were a full time royal we would see a lot more out of Kate, Harry, and possibly even Beatrice, but because he isn't the three of them are in this weird position where they are trying to find their own way within royal life without overshadowing William who himself is only a part time royal. I think the three of them being part time still is very much by design because of William's status, and it's actually the one thing I question most about the path that the BRF is on right now.
According to what's been conveyed to the royal reporters, Harry is not ready to take on full-time royal work, so I'm not sure being part-time is all due to William. Plus we're not taking into account Camilla's role. She only does about 250-300 engagements a year, a far cry from the other senior members. If Harry, William, Kate and Beatrice upped their workload, some would think they were overshadowing Camilla.
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:14 PM
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The thread is the Monarchy under Charles. Under Charles, William will be Duke of Cornwall and a 'full-time' royal.

Right now we're still the 'Monarchy under the Queen' and what William ,Catherine and Harry are doing now isn't what they'll be doing in the future.
Absolutely correct that we're still the Monarchy under the Queen but we're also seeing things gradually transition from that monarchy to prepare for the one that will come eventually as the Monarchy under Charles. Like summer doesn't jump instantly into winter (well, in most cases that is), the transitions between reigning monarchs doesn't all happen in the instant of "The Queen is Dead. Long Live the King" but is a gradual thing done with foresight, planning and execution. The same happens with the transition that William will face with going from being The Duke of Cambridge to The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge and possibly The Prince of Wales.

This family prepares well into the future and training is a gradual learning thing rather than an overnight crash course when the need arises. Its one reason (this is just an example) that the funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales was able to be put together so quickly and done almost to perfection. They used the Tay Bridge funeral plan which had been drawn up and even practiced for the time when it would be the Queen Mother's funeral procession.

Not much is ever done at the last minute or left to "cross that bridge when we get to it". Its not how the very practical and very methodical British royal family does things.
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:16 PM
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...

overshadowing Camilla.
This is the fear.
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:30 PM
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A lot of people here like to quote Richard Palmer

Well Palmer says the people he talks to say Charles is determined to take the family in a different direction.

Fewer engagements, fewer charities. I think under Charles, the obsession with counting royal engagements will come to an end.

This from Jan 2016

Quote:
Charles’s plans for a pared-down monarchy and the desire of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Prince Harry to focus on hands-on intensive work with a small group of charities instead of more mundane ribbon-cutting mean many of 3,000 voluntary organisations currently supported by the Firm are likely to lose their royal patrons in the coming years, sources have told the Daily Express.

Charles, 67, wants a more muscular, streamlined monarchy, focused on achieving concrete changes in society through a smaller group of working royals and, inevitably, a smaller number of organisations.
Read more: Hundreds of charities to lose royal support as Charles overhauls Queen's worthy causes | Royal | News | Daily Express
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:33 PM
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According to what's been conveyed to the royal reporters, Harry is not ready to take on full-time royal work, so I'm not sure being part-time is all due to William. Plus we're not taking into account Camilla's role. She only does about 250-300 engagements a year, a far cry from the other senior members. If Harry, William, Kate and Beatrice upped their workload, some would think they were overshadowing Camilla.
This post is a good example of how the numbers game is not the key to performance and effort.(Nothing personal intended)

The Queen does more than Camilla - and so she should , she's the Queen. So status does count.
The Queen does nearly 80% of her engagements inside a Royal Palace (example on how she is changing her workload)
Camilla's workload includes a lot of travel including o/seas (she HATES flying)
The Queen has work that we know she does "off stage". We have no idea about anyone else.
Charles and Anne do about the same "on stage" but depending on how the media are feeling at the time, Anne will seem to do more than Charles.
Charles is doing more meetings with diplomats etc.
Some royals have been doing the job for over 40 years and others have not. This means less time to garner charities, patronages and military appointments.
Andrew does a lot but no one cares
Edward does a lot but for very few organisations
Some royals do more than others but commentators don't care because they haven't a clue they exist.

Numbers game isn't worth a dime! I know this cos I count them.

All that is sure ids that when we have a new Monarch, within 3 years it will be different.
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:42 PM
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According to what's been conveyed to the royal reporters, Harry is not ready to take on full-time royal work, so I'm not sure being part-time is all due to William. Plus we're not taking into account Camilla's role. She only does about 250-300 engagements a year, a far cry from the other senior members. If Harry, William, Kate and Beatrice upped their workload, some would think they were overshadowing Camilla.

That is very possible. I do think they take some measures to try to prevent the younger generation from overshadowing the older generation, and this may very well be one method of that.
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Old 12-21-2016, 05:56 PM
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A lot of people here like to quote Richard Palmer

Well Palmer says the people he talks to say Charles is determined to take the family in a different direction.

Fewer engagements, fewer charities. I think under Charles, the obsession with counting royal engagements will come to an end.
I wouldn't take anything Palmer says to be gospel truths but its very possible that he's had good insights into how things may go in Charles' reign and the examples that you've pointed out are good ones.

I do think the way royal engagements and royal duties are done is most likely in for a big overhaul. There really are so much more better ways of doing things and reaching more people for common causes that would make a difference than 200-300 photo op appearances to cut a ribbon or unveil a plaque or take part in a medieval festival kind of thing.

Its very possible that things will be streamlined to the point that many different aspects of royal patronages and charities are all addressed and highlighted in one event such as a royal polo game for mental health. The sponsor organizations could be many that the royals already stand up for. This is the kind of streamlining I would imagine and maybe seeing one or more royal personage working together on things such as W&K&H already do.

The ways and means of reaching far more people much easier is available and it would be a shame if they weren't taken advantage of.
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Old 12-21-2016, 06:06 PM
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This post is a good example of how the numbers game is not the key to performance and effort.(Nothing personal intended)

The Queen does more than Camilla - and so she should , she's the Queen. So status does count.
The Queen does nearly 80% of her engagements inside a Royal Palace (example on how she is changing her workload)
Camilla's workload includes a lot of travel including o/seas (she HATES flying)
The Queen has work that we know she does "off stage". We have no idea about anyone else.
Charles and Anne do about the same "on stage" but depending on how the media are feeling at the time, Anne will seem to do more than Charles.
Charles is doing more meetings with diplomats etc.
Some royals have been doing the job for over 40 years and others have not. This means less time to garner charities, patronages and military appointments.
Andrew does a lot but no one cares
Edward does a lot but for very few organisations
Some royals do more than others but commentators don't care because they haven't a clue they exist.

Numbers game isn't worth a dime! I know this cos I count them.

All that is sure ids that when we have a new Monarch, within 3 years it will be different.
Of course it's not the key, but the engagement count is the current method that journalists and royal watchers use when discussing which royals are/aren't doing enough. It would be nice if the focus was on quality and not quantity, but that's just not how things are being viewed right now.
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