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  #2641  
Old 10-24-2016, 05:49 PM
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That's pretty much what I said except for few things. All of the queens female cousins, which is Alexandra, are full time royals. There are not as many royal males in Bea's generation as there were in Elizabeth's. And the original plan was for the younger grandchildren of the monarch not to do any duties. This was kept with Prince Michael but not with the DOG because his brother and not Princess Alexandra because Margaret married Antony and their children were nor royal So the problem of full time working royals is not a problem. James does not use his RH and Peter is not entitled to it. As for Charles' cousins the Linleys and Chattos, they are not blood royal but they are of royal blood. They have a near to perfect example in Alexander Ramsay of Mar. His mother was a princess but he did not due any royal duties even though she did even after the relinquishment of her style and title. As for Bea and Eugenie there has been no princess that has had to get a job considered the last one before them is 38 years their senior. I hope this helped you understand my statement.
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  #2642  
Old 10-24-2016, 05:55 PM
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In reality, what will happen is exactly what this thread is all about. It will be the monarch under Charles. Andrew may feel that as part of the current working force of the "Firm" that he has the right (which he does) to state his opinions and what he perceives should be the way to go as far as his daughters are concerned but at the end of the day, it will be Charles as monarch that puts his visions of his monarchy into action.

Charles is a man that has successfully built and maintained numerous endeavors that define his role as the Prince of Wales and he oversees for the most part the progress and the projects that are involved with each of them and has people he believes are the best to do the day to day functioning of each of them. Do we really think that he'll be any different as a monarch with his own family's "Firm"? I am well inclined to believe that if he seriously does not want the York princesses to have a defining role in the "Firm", it will be for reasons other than he just simply doesn't "like" them or by their status because of birth. If there has been anything proven to be true in the past decades, its that Charles is a very astute and aware businessman and knows what works and what doesn't work and that the perks of something can also be pitfalls.

One thing that stands out for me in this regard is that how easily it could have been a reversal of characters with Charles being more like Andrew as the heir to his mother and Andrew being the one to more or less "pull himself up by the bootstraps" and applied himself for the betterment of crown, the country and his monarch.
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  #2643  
Old 10-24-2016, 06:09 PM
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i can't understand why people sees andrew as delusional when he say he want his daughters to be treated like what they are " blood princesses " but no one talk when the queen changed the order of precedence to make blood princesses like anne , alexandra even beatrice and Eugenie in higher precedence from the Duchess of Cambridge and camilla .
i get that they need to slim the working royals but they can do that with handing the works that the gloucesters and kents do to the york girls .
treating them different than what the were going to do because they think the public isn't that fond of them because how they dress and their parents isn't fair i actually like that they are proud of being royals and doesn't whine about it like other who are higher than them in rank and think that being royals is the worst thing in the world .
if u sees it as a burden and don't wanna work as a full time royal then stop whining about it forfeit your own title and live the life you want and leave that role to someone else who are proud of being royal and actually want to do the work .
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  #2644  
Old 10-24-2016, 06:43 PM
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To be honest, and this is my opinion only, is that we've seen Andrew make a big fuss out of things but have no real clue how the "blood princesses" feel about it themselves.

For all we know, under the reign of Charles, we may actually see that only the heir and his family will carry the HRH as a form of address. Its not actually a title but a form of address. We just don't know what Charles' monarchy will be actually like until it happens. Until it does, we can only guesstimate and that's what we're doing in this thread.
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  #2645  
Old 10-24-2016, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
i can't understand why people sees andrew as delusional when he say he want his daughters to be treated like what they are " blood princesses " but no one talk when the queen changed the order of precedence to make blood princesses like anne , alexandra even beatrice and Eugenie in higher precedence from the Duchess of Cambridge and camilla .
You do realize though that the order of precedence that you're referring to is applicable only to when its all females present and their husbands are not present right? There's more information in the Order of Precedence thread.

Order of Precedence
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  #2646  
Old 10-24-2016, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
You do realize though that the order of precedence that you're referring to is applicable only to when its all females present and their husbands are not present right? There's more information in the Order of Precedence thread.

Order of Precedence
yes . i know that when their husbands with them it's the other way around but the queen did change it in private events in 2005 to make the blood princesses higher than the one's by marriage but my point is that people think that andrew is outdated , delusional and coming out of the blue when he talk about things like blood princesses when in fact the queen herself actually putting that matter in her mind .
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  #2647  
Old 10-24-2016, 07:20 PM
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The female royals all being together without husbands is highly unlikely and Charles can change the order of precedence when he is King.


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  #2648  
Old 10-24-2016, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
The female royals all being together without husbands is highly unlikely and Charles can change the order of precedence when he is King.


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that's not the point the point is that blood princess is a thing that they put in their mind its not like andrew is talking out of the blue about something and he is the only one who cares about it
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  #2649  
Old 10-24-2016, 07:39 PM
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I think you've explained the gist of the precedent issue, Duke, when you stated:

"but the queen did change it in private events in 2005 to make the blood princesses higher than the one's by marriage"

There is a huge difference between the BRF's private lives and the very public "Firm" that is almost like a corporation. The private and the public do not necessarily mesh.

A grandmother of a big family may be the matriarch and declare that dessert will come before dinner on holidays but that would have no bearing on the llama wool business grandma and grandpa built from scratch and most family members work at.
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  #2650  
Old 10-24-2016, 07:49 PM
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The Queen wasn't too concerned about blood princess before because Diana and Sarah were ahead of Anne, Margaret and Alexandra when they were in the family.

This is the monarchy under Charles thread, the precedence order will reset as people's relationship to the monarch changes.


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  #2651  
Old 10-24-2016, 07:55 PM
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ok for the last time i'm not talking about the order of precedence itself but the premises that the queen used to change it
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  #2652  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:10 PM
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I can remember discussions with friends in Britain about how the York princesses would fit into the royal family going forward a decade ago, in fact I think it was more than twelve years ago as the Wessexes were new parents then. So there have been stories in the media about it for eons!

I feel that Andrew can be very pompous and status-conscious. I do think he's been doing some manoevring again recently on his family's behalf because he can see his parents' increasing frailty and the end of his mother's reign rapidly approaching. He and Charles aren't particularly close, and what he's suggested for his girls so far seemingly hasn't cut any mustard with his brother. So he has to strike while the iron is hot, to mix the metaphors!

I don't think Eugenie wants to be a full time Royal. I believe she enjoys her life, which is largely private, at the moment. A mix of career, family activities, romance with Jack, charities and the very occasional Royal engagement. She is like Harry in a way; loathes being 'different'. I read that when she was working in the States she would get annoyed when friends would teasingly refer to her in public as HRH and 'Princess'.

I've always felt though, and this is pure supposition on my part, that Beatrice is much less self-confident than her sister. She perhaps thought she would be married by now, hasn't made a huge success in the business world and seems to be a bit adrift at the moment. She enjoys charity work and physical challenges to do with this, and I feel that she would be quite content as a back-up to her uncle and cousins in the future.

Maybe Andrew is a bit worried about Beatrice since the romance with Dave collapsed, and wants to try again to get her a role rather like Sophie Wessex's. I don't think he'll succeed, but I think that's what he's trying for! Now, if only Beatrice could meet someone nice and settle down!
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  #2653  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:11 PM
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We don't know why she changed it for a highly unlikely scenario. Maybe Anne complained or Andrew threw a fit. It will change again when Charles is King.


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  #2654  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:26 PM
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my point is he didn't come with a law or a royal tradition from the 15th century that nobody know about it or heard of it in centuries and is being unreasonable because he want them to go by it now .
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  #2655  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
I tend to get confused by the issue, so I just worked it out on paper.

Not all of the Queen's first cousins became full time working royals. That would tell me that there is not precedent that a prince or princess must be given digs at KP and a job as a full time royal.

None of Charles first cousins are full time working royals. Again, this tells me there is not a precedent.

Just because you are a princess or prince, there is no precedent saying you must be given work as a full time royal. Two generations back.
None of Charles' first cousins are HRHs ( i.e princes or princesses) since they are grandchildren of a monarch in female line. All cousins of the Queen who are HRHs ( George V's grandchildren in male line) have some kind of public role.
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  #2656  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:51 PM
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It's a document issued for a specific scenario that isn't likely that is only 11 years old. It isn't a long standing tradition. The opposite is true the wives of the Prince of Wales and younger sons take precedence over the daughters of a sovereign.

It may give Bea and Eugenie precedence over Camilla and Kate if they are all alone, but there is no scenario where they will take precedence over William and Harry.

Charles can do want he wants when he is King. He will set the precedence, he controls the titles and he will control the money. If he wanted he could strip the York girls HRHs.


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  #2657  
Old 10-24-2016, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
None of Charles' first cousins are HRHs ( i.e princes or princesses) since they are grandchildren of a monarch in female line. All cousins of the Queen who are HRHs ( George V's grandchildren in male line) have some kind of public role.
Not quite. Prince Michael of Kent has no public role, does not receive any funding and has to pay market rent in order to stay at KP. He funds himself.

He is the grandson of a monarch - same as Beatrice and Eugenie. I see no difference per se.

One thing I will add about Beatrice. SHe does have dyslexia. THe same journo that wrote the original article about Andrew, also wrote about this the week before. IT may be one of the reasons she struggles at work. SChools and universities have suport mechanisms. THe work place generally does not. This may be part of the reason for work issues.
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  #2658  
Old 10-24-2016, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Charles can do what he wants when he is King. He will set the precedence, he controls the titles and he will control the money. If he wanted he could strip the York girls HRHs.


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Skippyboo, I did not realize that King Charles can remove the Her Royal Highness of either niece. Can Charles remove the Princess title of Beatrice and Eugenie?
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  #2659  
Old 10-24-2016, 09:48 PM
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The Monarchy under Charles

Charles as King can issue Letters Patent making whom ever he wants a HRH Prince(ss). George V set the current rules in 1917. The Queen made all of the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales HRHs when Kate was pregnant with George. Without it, Charlotte would not be a HRH Princess until Charles became King.

If he wanted to King Charles III could issue a Letters Patent limiting a HRH Prince(ss) to the children of the monarch and the children of the heir apparent. That would remove the HRHs from Bea, Eugenie and the possibility of James and Louise to use theirs. It would also remove the HRH from Harry's kids.


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  #2660  
Old 10-24-2016, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Charles as King can issue Letters Patent making whom ever he wants a HRH Prince(ss). George V set the current rules in 1917. The Queen made all of the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales HRHs when Kate was pregnant with George. Without it, Charlotte would not be a HRH Princess until Charles became King.

If he wanted to King Charles III could issue a Letters Patent limiting a HRH Prince(ss) to the children of the monarch and the children of the heir apparent. That would remove the HRHs from Bea, Eugenie and the possibility of James and Louise to use theirs. It would also remove the HRH from Harry's kids.

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no he can't do that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles...ation_Act_1917
George V removed the title prince and Princess of the United Kingdom by an Act of Parliament because the the hanovers and the Saxe-Coburg and Gothas who were also prince and Princess of the United Kingdom served in the army against the uk
and when he limted who get to be HRH and prince and Princess of the United Kingdom he didn't remove the titles from those who already held them so even if Charles want to limit it they won't get thier title taken away
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