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  #2121  
Old 04-09-2015, 03:44 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
The privileges that Beatrice and Eugenie enjoys is being paid by Andrew.



There are not many changes he can do with a constitutional monarchy. The cousin problem will resolve itself and he will not force anyone to retire. If he wants the monarchy to be less expensive then he must cut down on staff and that is not possible if he / the monarchy shall continue to be responsible for Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, St James's Palace, Clarence House and the private part of Kensington Palace.
I see your point but can't agree that there aren't many changes to make. Yes the core principals and roles of the sovereign as head of state stay the same but without changing these you can change what the monarchy is about. When the Queen came to the throne she got rid of debutantes appearing at the palace for their 'coming out' and instead starting hosting garden parties for a range of people from communities all across the UK. This showed that she felt the monarchy should be for everyone not just a select few.
Charles could choose to 'update' or change the way things are run but yes, as you say, his actual role as sovereign will not change.
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  #2122  
Old 04-09-2015, 04:06 PM
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Provided we get a new Royal Yacht when Charles comes to the throne, I don't mind what changes Charles makes...

Seriously though, provided any changes are Charles' decision rather than through undue pressure or change just for change's sake, I will not mind too much about decommissioning the royal train for instance or other types of "updating".

With regard to Beatrice and Eugenie's titles, I would have preferred all the Queen's grandchildren to have been the same - either all of the titled in the same way or no titles at all. Maybe Charles can remedy the situation for future generations, whilst leaving current titles alone.
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  #2123  
Old 04-09-2015, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I see your point but can't agree that there aren't many changes to make. Yes the core principals and roles of the sovereign as head of state stay the same but without changing these you can change what the monarchy is about. When the Queen came to the throne she got rid of debutantes appearing at the palace for their 'coming out' and instead starting hosting garden parties for a range of people from communities all across the UK. This showed that she felt the monarchy should be for everyone not just a select few.
Charles could choose to 'update' or change the way things are run but yes, as you say, his actual role as sovereign will not change.
I believe certain royal events could be changed/simplified. Take for example the State Opening of Parliament. Does the monarch really need to be dressed in full regalia and wear the imperial crown ? Or would a simpler ceremony more in line e.g. with the Speech from the Throne in Canada or Prinsjesdag in the Netherlands be enough ?

Changes to the monarch's constitutional role and prerogatives are, on the other hand, more complicated because they would require specific legislation. Since 1689, it has been clear that Parliament can take away royal prerogatives. In fact, the UK Parliament did that very recently in 2011 when it passed the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act removing the Queen's power to dissolve the legislature. In the future, Parliament may decide for example to disestablish the Church of England and end the king's role as temporal head of the church. Or they may go further and institute a formal procedure for the House of Commons to elect a Prime Minister that would eliminate any involvement of the monarch in appointing the government (in line e.g. with the current constitution of Sweden). I see all the above and other similar proposals as reasonable suggestions with which Charles or William might agree to "modernize" the monarchy.
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  #2124  
Old 04-09-2015, 05:04 PM
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Personally I'd like Charles to adopt rules limiting HRH to the children of the sovereign and the Prince of Wales. Personally I think that would limit the number of royals and prevent the same sort of situation we have now with Beatrice & Eugenie. I think the world has moved on from when it was okay to have lots of HRHs around.
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  #2125  
Old 04-09-2015, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Personally I'd like Charles to adopt rules limiting HRH to the children of the sovereign and the Prince of Wales. Personally I think that would limit the number of royals and prevent the same sort of situation we have now with Beatrice & Eugenie. I think the world has moved on from when it was okay to have lots of HRHs around.
As long as the "lesser" HRHs take up royal duties on behalf of the monarch, but get no (or little) money in return from the taxpayers/the State, I don't see why that would be a problem.

I would have a problem with non-working royals living off public funds. That is not the case, I guess, with Beatrice and Eugenie, or the Queen's cousins, is it ?
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  #2126  
Old 04-09-2015, 05:52 PM
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With the Royal House Act 2002 the Dutch narrowed the Royal House to only those who are related to the Bearer of the Crown, not furtherer than two degrees of consanguity.

When we would apply this example to the British situation under Charles

"THE ROYAL HOUSE"

0 - HM The King
0 - HM The Queen

1 - HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (widower)
1 - HRH The Prince of Wales
1 - HRH The Princess of Wales
1 - HRH The Prince Henry (Harry)

2 - HRH Prince George
2 - HRH Prince (Princess) .... (the coming baby)
2 - HRH The Princess Royal (Anne)
2 - Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Lawrence
2 - HRH The Duke of York (Andrew)
2 - HRH The Earl of Wessex (Edward)
2 - HRH The Countess of Wessex (Sophie)

--------------------------------------------------

"THE FURTHERER RELATIVES"

3 - Mr Peter Phillips
3 - Mrs Peter Phillips, née Kelly (Autumn)
3 - Mrs Michael Tindall née Phillips (Zara)
3 - Mr Michael Tindall
3 - Lady Beatrice Mountbatten-Windsor
3 - Lady Eugenie Mountbatten-Windsor
3 - Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor
3 - Lord James Mountbatten-Windsor, Viscount Severn

4 - Lord David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley
4 - Lady Serena Armstrong-Jones née Stanhope, Viscountess Linley
4 - Lady Sarah Chatto née Armstrong-Jones
4 - Mr Daniel Chatto

Etc.

Just a theoretic possibility. In 1917 a Letters Patent was issued to define titles. One hundred years later, in 2017, a new modernized Letters Patent could be issued. Just like the Dutch did.
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  #2127  
Old 04-09-2015, 06:28 PM
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That would work well, keeping all those who work hard at the moment and in the future and making a clear distinction between the family and the Royal House of working royals. I don't want the Kents and Gloucester to give up working as they do a good job but I think something should be done to limit royal titles so people in their position don't end up carrying out duties in the future.
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  #2128  
Old 04-09-2015, 07:12 PM
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Does anyone truly believe that Charles will not want Harry's children to be HRH's? That isn't on.

There are only four HRHs in the second generation anyway and only two who can pass it on. In the next generation, if this next child is a girl, then there will only be one to pass it on - George. I can't really see Kate having a third child given the sickness she has suffered with these two and the increasing chances that by the time a third comes her role will need to be greater due to the age and clear frailty of The Queen. She was fairly unsteady on her feet at the Afghanistan Service, very slow and even needed a helping hand down the stairs. I have many friends that age who are like that and they are frail ladies - determined ones but still frail and slowing down.

I don't really see a need to change a great deal. The State Opening of Parliament is a tradition and is a great way to showcase the British monarchy. It is different to the continental monarchies and long-life the differences.

This is the only time that the Queen gets to wear her Crown each year. Other than State Banquets (two in a year) this is the only other time that the jewels etc of the British royal family are on show. It also attracts tourists and is an occasion for the use of one of the many carriages.
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  #2129  
Old 04-09-2015, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I believe certain royal events could be changed/simplified. Take for example the State Opening of Parliament. Does the monarch really need to be dressed in full regalia and wear the imperial crown ? Or would a simpler ceremony more in line e.g. with the Speech from the Throne in Canada or Prinsjesdag in the Netherlands be enough ?
I don't agree. That's what's great about the British monarchy. And I hope and believe that ceremonies like the State Opening of Parliament, Trooping the Color, the Garter Service and state visits will continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Or they may go further and institute a formal procedure for the House of Commons to elect a Prime Minister that would eliminate any involvement of the monarch in appointing the government (in line e.g. with the current constitution of Sweden).
I don't think or wants that to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Personally I'd like Charles to adopt rules limiting HRH to the children of the sovereign and the Prince of Wales. Personally I think that would limit the number of royals and prevent the same sort of situation we have now with Beatrice & Eugenie. I think the world has moved on from when it was okay to have lots of HRHs around.
I agree with this.
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  #2130  
Old 04-09-2015, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I believe certain royal events could be changed/simplified. Take for example the State Opening of Parliament. Does the monarch really need to be dressed in full regalia and wear the imperial crown ? Or would a simpler ceremony more in line e.g. with the Speech from the Throne in Canada or Prinsjesdag in the Netherlands be enough ?
.
Then the State Opening won't be worth watching.

On a serious note we are losing so much tradition as it. I don't want anymore traditions lost. Part of wonders of civilizations is it's colourful events. It's shame that in the 21st Century we are reverting back to informal cavemen times.
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  #2131  
Old 04-09-2015, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There are only four HRHs in the second generation anyway and only two who can pass it on. In the next generation, if this next child is a girl, then there will only be one to pass it on - George.
In light of the significant changes made by the Succession to the Crown Act 2013, new Letters Patent are needed as the current version discriminates in favour of sons and is inconsistent with the Act. The current Letters Patent assume the monarch's heir will be Prince of Wales and they discriminate against children of the daughters of the monarch. The HRH style should be limited to the children of the monarch and the oldest living child of the monarch's first-born child. Or, perhaps, to the children of the monarch and the children of the monarch's first-born child, and then the oldest living child of the monarch's first-born child.
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  #2132  
Old 04-09-2015, 08:27 PM
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Without the opening of parliament, the regalia would only be worn for coronations. As the queen has said, she is not fond of jewelry, but it is there, and should be seen. The LP of 1917 will still work, and due to the fact the queen had no brothers, and most of the grandchildren out of the direct line of succession are girls, role will be slimmed down greatly by the time William is king. James will be the equivalent of the Duke of Kent. Slimming down the royals will be the least of Charles's worries. He may modify how they are supported, but he will not need to strip anyone
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  #2133  
Old 04-10-2015, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by royalistbert View Post
Then the State Opening won't be worth watching.

On a serious note we are losing so much tradition as it. I don't want anymore traditions lost. Part of wonders of civilizations is it's colourful events. It's shame that in the 21st Century we are reverting back to informal cavemen times.
Indeed, and we would only have Prinsjesdag left for a bit of pomp and glamour! The State Opening of Parliament has already been tinkered about with for no good reason!

I agree that many traditions are being lost and mostly because of so-called modernising rather than for genuine improvement.

The thing that I like about the monarchy is that it can adapt and change of it's own accord, naturally and over a manageable length of time. The issue with the number of HRHs will resolve itself in due course.

I think that Charles will make changes as and when events or issues come up and we will get the measure of what sorts of things might change when we see what the Coronation is like.
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  #2134  
Old 04-10-2015, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Does anyone truly believe that Charles will not want Harry's children to be HRH's? That isn't on.
The children of Prince Edward are not HRH's either, at least not in daily use. The children of Princess Margaret and Princess Anne are not HRH's either, of course this has to do with their non-male lineage descent but all of them are grandsons and granddaughters of a Sovereign. So it is not that shocking new.

Note that we are only discussing theoretic situations. Other monarchies have already modernized. Denmark, Spain, the Netherlands, Norway, etc. all have grandsons/granddaughters of the Sovereign who are not a HRH at all. In Spain they are treated as a Grande de España without title with the prefix Excellency. In the Netherlands they are Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nasssau van Amsberg with the prefix Highborn Lord (Lady). In Norway Sverre Magnus has the title 'Prince' but no any prefix and no any designation (not "of Norway"). So it is visible that many countries are coping with the wish to limit the Royal House and all do it in their own way.
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  #2135  
Old 04-10-2015, 03:13 PM
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With all respect to the various European (and other) royal families, I don't believe that they attract visitors to their countries. The pomp and circumstance of the BRF is (said to be, anyway) an important aspect of tourism to the UK, and if the grandeur is down-sized, so might the tourism be, also.
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  #2136  
Old 04-10-2015, 03:32 PM
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I don't think limiting HRH's takes away from the grandeur of the monarchy at all, are you telling me the tourists who come from america, japan etc wouldn't come if the Kents, Gloucesters etc didn't have HRH titles?

To be honest if Charles limits HRH titles any money savings will go towards even more splendour around those Royals left, he's shown he likes a grand staff and grand entertaining I think we can safely say under Charles the monarchy will only become even more grand!
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  #2137  
Old 04-10-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
With all respect to the various European (and other) royal families, I don't believe that they attract visitors to their countries. The pomp and circumstance of the BRF is (said to be, anyway) an important aspect of tourism to the UK, and if the grandeur is down-sized, so might the tourism be, also.
The first example that comes to my mind is how many people make it a point, when traveling to the UK, to make sure to see the changing of the Guards at Buckingham Palace or try and make one of those stone faced guards twitch or giggle. I'm sure the palace guards could be done away with as, if I'm correct, they're more ceremonial than actually security for the Queen and palace but the pomp and pageantry and the traditional uniforms is quite a mainstay to see while in London. I think its basically the same with the opening of Parliament and Trooping the Color and seeing the Royal Family at Ascot. I don't see Charles even thinking about changing any of this at all and I'd be willing to bet that he might even think on reviving some of the traditions that may have been put aside over the years. He is astute enough to know that not only is the Royal Family quite visible to the UK and Commonwealth but also have quite a global following.
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  #2138  
Old 04-10-2015, 03:37 PM
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I don't think Charles will ditch any of the events there are now but he may tweak with them a little. Wasn't it said (and yes let's take it with a pinch of salt) that he wanted to make more of investitures my inviting those getting an honour to stay for drinks or lunch after. That would be a nice touch to me and wouldn't take away from the event at all!
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  #2139  
Old 04-10-2015, 03:43 PM
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I don't think Charles will ditch any of the events there are now but he may tweak with them a little. Wasn't it said (and yes let's take it with a pinch of salt) that he wanted to make more of investitures my inviting those getting an honour to stay for drinks or lunch after. That would be a nice touch to me and wouldn't take away from the event at all!
and would cost more
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  #2140  
Old 04-10-2015, 04:03 PM
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and would cost more
Perhaps. I do like the idea and think it would make it so much more special for those being invested. For so many, its an event of a lifetime and adding a small get together with drinks or maybe lunch would make it all the more memorable.
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