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  #81  
Old 08-06-2011, 07:30 PM
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Perhaps the Lascelles family did not want all the disruption that would come from a large Royal turnout. Perhaps they wanted to mourn in a relatively private manner, knowing that there would eventually be a memorial service in London that could be attended by the royals as well as friends from the arts.
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  #82  
Old 08-07-2011, 08:15 AM
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I meant Peter Phillips, of course. So sorry for the mistake. Peter Phillips is a son of the Princess Royal, as was the Earl of Harewood, a son of the previous Princess Royal. Thats where I see a similiar situation.
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  #83  
Old 08-07-2011, 09:47 AM
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It is important to remember that not everyone shares the same views on funerals, their importance and meaning.

The last funeral I attended was in 1995 for my parents, unless it is my husband, I will never attend another one, I do not believe in them, I have made my own final arrangements, I will be embalmed and have an immediate burial.

I feel the same way about hospital visits, I do not go and when I was in the hospital, I did not want visitors and made my feelings known to family and friends, I was there because I was ill. I needed to rest, recover and leave the setting as quickly as possible.

I also am a very private person when it comes to grieving, I do not want an audience and I do not like to share other people's grief. I happen to agree with the late Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mother, one should not impose their troubles on others.
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  #84  
Old 08-07-2011, 06:37 PM
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I meant Peter Phillips, of course. So sorry for the mistake. Peter Phillips is a son of the Princess Royal, as was the Earl of Harewood, a son of the previous Princess Royal. Thats where I see a similiar situation.
Now I know you meant Peter I see the point of your comparison. I feel the Earl was even more deserving of the attendance of more royals at his funeral, he was a Counseller of State twice -
1944 - 1951 on the death of Princess Maud till when Princess Margaret turned 21 yrs
1952 - 1956 on the death of King George VI till when Prince Edward, The Duke of Kent turned 21 yrs.

Correction, I believe in 1944 he became a Counsellor because he turned 21 yrs.
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:31 PM
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You're right, Ada. I forgot about it. He acted at least several times as a Counsellor, performing the King/Queen's duties.
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  #86  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:35 PM
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royals at the funeral

I think the security headache was a major factor. Prince Charles and Camilla had been to Harewood House in the last few years. Prince Michael attended the funeral.
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  #87  
Old 09-05-2011, 11:36 AM
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Were any of the Lascelles in attendance at Harewood House for the Variety Clubs gala attended by the Prince and Princess of Monaco? Perhaps still in mourning for the late Earl?
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:24 AM
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According to the Court Circular, nearly all of the senior royals were represented at the Service of Thanksgiving for the life of The Earl of Harewood on September 30. The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh were represented by Princess Alexandra, and The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester attended.
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  #89  
Old 10-03-2011, 02:24 PM
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According to the Court Circular, nearly all of the senior royals were represented at the Service of Thanksgiving for the life of The Earl of Harewood on September 30. The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh were represented by Princess Alexandra, and The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester attended.
I read that the senior royals were represented at this funeral but what I found odd was that Prince Michael represented Edward and Sophie...how do they work who represents the seniors? I always assumed it was and equerry or ladies-in-waiting but I guess I was wrong.
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  #90  
Old 10-03-2011, 06:03 PM
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I was saying only that I think its a shame that the late man's whole maternal family was represented only by one man.
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Yes, he was a commoner but he was a grandson of a Sovereign, of Royal blood, and he achieved something important to me, for example in the fields of music and opera. So, I think, the Royal Family should honour him and move their lazy and ignorant asses down to Harewood to attend his funeral. Its much easier to make a few minutes-long journey by car to a London's church for the service, isnt it? For God's sake, he was their (the Queen's, the Gloucester's and the Kents') first cousin! So, giving this example, there would be no King William V and Queen Catherine, nor Harry nor Beatrice in attendance at the funeral of Mark Phillips? And the RF would be represented only by James Mountbatten-Windsor?
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Perhaps the Lascelles family did not want all the disruption that would come from a large Royal turnout. Perhaps they wanted to mourn in a relatively private manner, knowing that there would eventually be a memorial service in London that could be attended by the royals as well as friends from the arts.
I’ve only seen this thread relatively recently and wonder if I could possibly help by giving a little bit of background information?

First, regarding funerals: First, one has to distinguish between ROYAL FUNERALS and funerals of Royal Relatives or close Royal associates or friends.

The general rule of the Royal family [and because it is a ‘general rule’ means that there will always be exceptions) is that if there is a Royal Funeral [which can be a State funeral, but need not be] members of the Royal Family will attend: there are all sorts of ‘different Royal Funerals’: by way of example I would mention the Funeral of King George VI , The Funeral of Diana Princess of Wales, The Funeral of the Duchess of Windsor: these respectively were a State Funeral, ‘ a Funeral that was officially NOT a State Funeral but regarded as [I think the phrase was a ‘Special Funeral’] and what palace and government sources called a ‘private royal funeral’. Members of TRF will easily be able to recall that there was an important presence of Royals at all these funerals.

If there is a funeral of a ROYAL RELATIVE [which could include divorced spouses etc] the general rule [and again, because this is a general rule, there will always be exceptions] is that there is NO significant senior Royal turnout; the Royal presence will usually be usually be confined to one or very occasionally two ‘minor’ Royals. This is not due to any lack of respect or laziness, but, as NGalitzine [who is always ‘on the ball’ on so many matters of protocol if I may say so] so correctly summarises, it is to avoid the proceedings – and more accurately the FOCUS of the proceedings – being dominated by the Royal Presence. As well as a public expression of grief, in the UK funerals are very much a family affair as well, and the focus should be on the grieving family which would not necessarily be the case if (say) Senior members of the BRF attended. For a start, from the point of protocol, the arrival of (say) the Queen and the Prince of Wales would have to be acknowledged formally, whereas of course, the focus of the occasion should be on the deceased and his family. It is also quite a practical matter for another reason: as people have intimated through their posts, royal engagements are fixed some time in advance and the general rule is that these are almost always NEVER cancelled.

I should also perhaps emphasise that Lord Harewood was NEVER a member of the ROYAL FAMILY [it is up to the Queen to decide who is a member of the ROYAL FAMILY and this is not the same as being a ROYAL RELATIVE. And being a member of the ROYAL FAMILY is nothing to do with either closeness to the monarch [either by birth or succession or even association] or being in receipt or otherwise of the civil list or equivalent: for example, Buckingham Palace is quite clear on the point that Prince Michael is regarded as a member of the Royal Family whereas Zara Philips is not.

The Earl of Harewood is of course a Royal relative but is not and has never been a member of the Royal Family. He did not have a Royal Funeral and therefore the ‘usual rules’ were followed. It is therefore not a case of a failure of the BRF to [and I quote]’ move their lazy and ignorant asses down to Harewood to attend his funeral’
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I read that the senior royals were represented at this funeral but what I found odd was that Prince Michael represented Edward and Sophie...how do they work who represents the seniors? I always assumed it was and equerry or ladies-in-waiting but I guess I was wrong.
Molly, the Service was actually a Memorial Service, not a funeral service

So far as Memorial Services [often known also as Thanksgiving Services] are concerned, the rules for funerals as stated above apply but in a slightly modified form. I should start by saying that in the UK, by custom and practice, Memorial Services are traditionally held for important people a few months after their deaths. The occasion is both solemn and celebratory. [Sometimes, however, rather confusingly, some funeral services are called Thanksgiving Services by the family concerned, usually when there is a combined Funeral and Memorial Service]

The Queen hardly ever attends a Memorial Service; she is almost always represented by either a senior Royal [if a royal relative is concerned] or a senior member of her household if the memorial service is for an important but none royal person.

As a general point, ‘First Division Royals’ [HM, DofE, PoW etc] usually do not attend Memorial services either in their own capacity or as representatives for even more senior royals, partly to avoid shifting the emphasis away from the subject matter of the service, but also because they are often ‘booked up’ for engagements: ‘First Division Royals’ tend to undertake the most engagements. However, at very important Memorial Services, it is always possible that First Division Royals will attend – probably because the date of the Memorial Service might be fixed to enable them to attend. Prince Michael of Kent, Princess Alexandra and Prince Edward and Sophie are often more likely to be free and therefore tend to get chosen by First Division Royals to represent them.

I will add a little bit of a footnote by mentioning a couple of contrasting memorial services: the Memorial Service for King Hussein of Jordan [held in St Paul’s Cathedral] was attended by Duke of Edinburgh, the Prince of Wales and the Duke and Duchess of Kent; this no doubt reflected the fact that Queen Noor and King Abdullah and many members of the Jordanian Royal Family were also present [as well as other members of other Royal families – Queen Sofia of Spain for example. [Memorial Service for a Monarch therefore requires significant Royal Presence]. Secondly, consider the contrast of the Memorial Service for favourite Royal photographer Sir Norman Parkinson, when the Princess Royal sent her hairdresser Michael Rasser to represent her at the service! [A first for a royal hairdresser].

I hope that some of the foregoing is of interest,
Alex
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  #91  
Old 10-03-2011, 06:16 PM
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Thank you for the information Alex. I was not suggesting by my comment that the turn out at the Memorial Service was a failure on behalf of the Royal Family. I was just curious as to who chooses people to represent the senior royals. Do they themselves choose who goes, or is it set by someone else? For example, would Edward and Sophie have chosen Michael to represent them? Would the Queen have chosen Alexandra? Or is it merely a matter of "who is free to attend to represent a senior"? I noticed that none of the senior royals attended, and I have read your reply regarding Royal family presence at Memorial services distracting from the mourners, which I understand. I was simply curious as to who chooses their representation.
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  #92  
Old 10-03-2011, 06:22 PM
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Molly, I realise that of course you were not suggesing any disrespect by what you said!

I can only speak generally from what I have picked up during my career, but understand the the Royals' Private Secretaries, in consultation with 'their' Royals work out which Royals will be appearing and who will represent whom, usually depending upon which royals are 'available'. I stand to be corrected on this, but I never saw any evidence of the Queen 'allocating royals' etc


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  #93  
Old 10-09-2011, 10:43 AM
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Discussion of who is included in the term "the Royal Family" is continued in the Members of the Royal Family thread.
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  #94  
Old 10-09-2011, 10:59 AM
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I understand that etiquette and custom is the only thing that determines the life of the Court and the Royals' behaviour in such situtations, like the death of Lord Harewood. What has Alex wrote cleared up it to us, but I am just wondering... from my very own poiont of view, if they ever wanted to break the custom and protocol and attend the funeral or thanksgiving service of their closest, very first cousin, you know, be there in person. Because for me and in my society, it matters a lot to take part in such most important family life events.
And I wonder, when Zara Phillips dies, would King William and Queen Catherine attend the funeral? It will not be appropriate, as I understand from Alex's post. they could be represented by, let's say, James Mountbatten, who is the most junior male member of the RF from his generation. Like Prince Michael was representing the Queen at the Harewood's funeral service.
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Old 10-09-2011, 03:14 PM
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kbk, I think the answer lies in an examination of what has happened before. For example, I can remember Prince Andrew attending the funeral of one of his staff [a servant, not a private secretary or other executive] on one occasion. This is a normal departure from what usually happens, but Prince Andrew had been very close to this servant over the years, who had apparently been 'almost like a father to him'.

I therefore presume that if any member of the royal family wanted to depart from the 'usual custom and practice', then this would be allowed. This is speculation on my part, so there is nothing that I can particularly refer you to by way of an authority. Common sense tells me that if a funeral was a 'private affair', then it would be easier for a member of the Royal Family to attend. I also have to say that if a Royal Engagement had been scheduled for the funeral day, then I am sure that the Royal engagement would take priority, particularly if it was an engagement connected with charity, and therefore the Royal would not attend the funeral.

[as a general point, the Queen is always keen to stress that she regards charitable functions as very important - even when the particular event does not involve a royal visit (for example, when the Funeral of Diana, Princess of Wales was held, BP announced that (even though the country was engaged in a very public dispaly of mourning], any charitable occasion was not to be cancelled and instead was to go ahead]
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:01 PM
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I think it is up to the individual member of the family to determine whether they attend or are represented. Probably they take into consideration their schedule of engagements and where the funeral is being held. Andrew attended the funeral of Lady Kennard, his godmother, in early May. She died the day before Williams wedding. Photos were taken of Andrew at the funeral, which may be another reason why royals don't often attend private funerals....the photogs tend to show up.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:03 PM
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And I wonder, when Zara Phillips dies, would King William and Queen Catherine attend the funeral? It will not be appropriate, as I understand from Alex's post. they could be represented by, let's say, James Mountbatten, who is the most junior male member of the RF from his generation. Like Prince Michael was representing the Queen at the Harewood's funeral service.
I'd like to think William would attend the funeral of his cousin, whether he was the King or not. But who knows. Prince Michael was representing Edward and Sophie at Lord Harewood's funeral, not the Queen.

I imagine, as NGalitzine stated, it has probably more to do with schedules and such whether they attend the funeral, as well as avoiding the attraction of unwanted press.
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Old 10-13-2011, 03:16 AM
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Prince Michael was representing Edward and Sophie at Lord Harewood's funeral, not the Queen.
It was Prince Michael who represented the Queen at the funeral. He later represented The Wessexes at the service of thanksgiving.
I just hope the younger generation of the RF is not so bounded with the protocol as the elders and they will attend the most important events in the lifes of their closest relations. I mean, would you not attend the funeral of your first cousin, with whom you spent childhood?
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:09 PM
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Well if I was part of the Lascelles family I might be put off from having my cousin the Queen attend my fathers family because of security, protocol and press attention. The focus of the funeral should have been on the late Earl, his widow and his children, not on The Queen and his other royal relations being in attendance. There are other ways of expessing condolence privately than attending a funeral.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:30 PM
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It was Prince Michael who represented the Queen at the funeral. He later represented The Wessexes at the service of thanksgiving.
I just hope the younger generation of the RF is not so bounded with the protocol as the elders and they will attend the most important events in the lifes of their closest relations. I mean, would you not attend the funeral of your first cousin, with whom you spent childhood?
Ahhh, ok I see. I did not know that. I do think the younger Royals will be more relaxed regarding protocol as they have grown up in the 21st Century. They are not like Royal prince's and princesses of yesteryears. I would also like to think your last comment would be true and a no-brainer; William would likely attend his cousin's funeral, even if he was The King, just like James (The Duke of Edinburgh as he'll likely be known then) would attend his cousin's funeral, even if he is much, much younger than her and would not have many childhood memories together. (I find that a bit sad really as Louise and James are so much younger, but that was unpreventable and another topic completely.) Family is family at the end of the day. It's quite similar to the situation of would Charles attend the funeral of his younger cousins, if he were to outlive them if he is King. I'd like to think he would.

I was just reading some of the Lascelles family history and I was slightly confused regarding the now 8th Earl of Harewood's children. His older two children were born out of wedlock, but became children of a Viscount upon their parent's marriage yet the oldest son (Ben) is now not Viscount Lascelles. Is this because he was born out of wedlock, thus he is not entitled to inherit?
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