The Honours thread 1: Until 2022

[Durham]

This knighthood for Blair is going to raise a lot of eyebrows. Only Anthony Eden is comparable to Blair for controversy over involving Britain in a divisive war.

Eden however was already KG before he became pm & plunged Britain in the Suez debacle. Tellingly he was given a peerage after he resigned.

 

[Mbruno]

I'm no fan of Tony Blair, but I thought he handled Diana's death as well as could have been expected. It was an unprecedented situation, no-one was prepared for it, and he'd only been Prime Minister for a short time and had no previous experience of government. But maybe it didn't seem that way to the Queen. The senior royals chose not to speak publicly at first. I understand why they did that, but somebody had to take charge and say something to the nation, and that had to be the Prime Minister.

Personally I think Blair clearly tried to take political advantage of Diana's tragedy in his now infamous "people's princess" remark. But at the time he was a young and ambitious politician at the peak of his popularity, so it is at least understandable that it would be his natural instinct to act as he did.

But, as Durham said, the main criticism of Blair today has nothing to do with Diana, but mostly with the Iraq war.

 

[Sunnystar]

Maybe the block against Blair within the royal family wasn't HM The Queen but Prince Philip.

 

[padams2359]

Blair took Britannia. He should have not gotten anything. He is getting his accolades now. It’s been 20 years. Theresa May probably hasn’t finished unpacking boxes from her move out of #10.

 

[Sandy345]

Probably back then the Queen felt trapped and outmanoeuvred by Tony Blair and maybe she was not at all amused with his label People's Princess for someone no part of the royal family. That was a qualification accidentally setting them apart: "So, we, the royal family, are not with the people, then?

But by hindsight the young Prime Minister did his best. That monarchs sometimes have an issue with a former Prime Minister is probably of all times and happens in all monarchies. In my country in the last 40 years, there were only 4 Prime Ministers. Usually they receive the protocollary rank and honorific of Minister van Staat after some time but the PM from 2002-2010 is still waiting after 12 years and it is rumoured the palace holds a grudge against him for his clumsy handling of royal affairs.

We all are human and hold emotions, monarchs have long toes too...

As mother of a future King and the spare, Diana was indeed part of the family. She did not have the HRH, but was still Diana, Princess of Wales.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

As mother of a future King and the spare, Diana was indeed part of the family. She did not have the HRH, but was still Diana, Princess of Wales.

No longer part of the royal family, alike Mark Phillips (parent to the Queen's oldest grandchildren) is no part either. The difference between the two was just a form of address: a female can -by custom and courtesy- be addressed with her divorced husband's title as long as she remains unmarried.

If Diana had married her beau, she would have been known as Lady Diana Al-Fayed. Nothing else would have changed but her form of address. Is a Lady Diana Al-Fayed part of the royal family then?

 

[Sandy345]

She was seen at events related to the children she and Charles had together. She attended with Charles, William's Confirmation. I am really doubtful she would have married Fayed. I think she would have had remarried but not right away, maybe a few years. Unlike Mark Phillips, she would (had she lived) been parent of a monarch. I think William would have considered her a royal family member. But that was not to be.

 

[tommy100]

I 100% believe the appointment was in part because no PM who came to power after Mr Blair could be appointed to the Garter without Mr Blair being appointed. Then I imagine there was also the fact for a long time the leader of the Labour Party in Jeremy Corbyn was very much against such honors which may not have helped. HM couldn't very well appoint Mr Cameron, Mrs May or Mr Johnson in time to the order if she didn't appoint a former Labour PM.
I also wonder if in part, and I don't mean this horribly, that HM doesn't intend to take part in another Garter service so is happy to appoint Mr Blair now. Who knows. Realistically as much as the Garter is very much as the Sovereign's discretion it is pretty much expected former Prime Ministers get some honour.

 

[Durham]

Well it's certainly going to spoil any enjoyment for many seeing Blair of all people on Garter Day.

Hopefully he won't turn up.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

No longer part of the royal family, alike Mark Phillips (parent to the Queen's oldest grandchildren) is no part either. The difference between the two was just a form of address: a female can -by custom and courtesy- be addressed with her divorced husband's title as long as she remains unmarried.

If Diana had married her beau, she would have been known as Lady Diana Al-Fayed. Nothing else would have changed but her form of address. Is a Lady Diana Al-Fayed part of the royal family then?

I am not sure this is the right thread for this, but Diana, Princess of Wales was "regarded as a member of the Royal Family":

The following announcement has been issued by the press secretary to the Queen:

STATUS AND ROLE OF THE PRINCESS OF WALES

The Princess of Wales, as the mother of Prince William, will be regarded by The Queen and The Prince of Wales as being a member of the Royal Family.

It has been agreed that her style and title will be Diana, Princess of Wales. She may retain any orders, insignia and other titles, consistent with her being known as Diana, Princess of Wales.

As she will be regarded as a member of the Royal Family, The Princess will from time to time receive invitations to State and national public occasions, as for any other member of the Royal Family, at the invitation of The Sovereign or the Government. On these occasions The Princess will be accorded the precedence she enjoys at present.

[...]

 

[AC21091968]

I wonder how Cherrie Blair reacted at being Lady Blair

I guess she is probably very excited!

I also do wonder what the media or indeed the public would call her in the future. Would she still be called Cherrie Blair or Mrs Blair? Or indeed Lady Blair?

I'm speculating this, because when Philip May was knighted in the 2019 Dissolution Honours (Knight Bachelor), Theresa May is technically Lady May. However, from memory, she was hardly address as "Lady May" in the public domain, in terms of politics. Instead she was referred as "Theresa May", "Mrs. May" or "Former Prime Minister".

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I'm speculating this, because when Philip May was knighted in the 2019 Dissolution Honours (Knight Bachelor), Theresa May is technically Lady May. However, from memory, she was hardly address as "Lady May" in the public domain, in terms of politics. Instead she was referred as "Theresa May", "Mrs. May" or "Former Prime Minister".

Apparently Theresa May herself chooses to be referred to as Theresa May in her public activities and as Lady May in her private activities.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/03/tony-blair-owes-lady-may-apology/

Which would seem to be another example disproving the popular claim that British women are required by law to use their husbands' titles.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Well it's certainly going to spoil any enjoyment for many seeing Blair of all people on Garter Day.

Hopefully he won't turn up.

The aged Sir Anthony Blair KG will walk in a group of elderly blue velvet-clad knights wearing hats with waving ostrich feathers. One needs a good look to see the former PM somewhere in that gerontocratic group. And after the first time, it becomes "routine": the newsworthiness fades away. The same did happen to former PM Thatcher, also a lady which caused quite some reactions pro and contra...

 

[Prinsara]

No requirement about spouses' titles at all, and it was in fact very vocally disproved to the current PM by the former Speaker of the House.

 

[Somebody]

I am not sure this is the right thread for this, but Diana, Princess of Wales was "regarded as a member of the Royal Family":

I believe Sarah, Duchess of York, is also still considered part of the royal family (as mother of two British princesses of the blood I suppose). Isn't she on some kind of official list?

 

[tommy100]

Yes, a list from the Lord chamberlain's office in regards to Royal Arms. Sarah is listed at the end and as both York ladies are listed along with their husbands its obviously quite up to date.

https://www.royal.uk/use-royal-arms

https://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/media/annex_d_-_royal_family_11.pdf

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Personally I think Blair clearly tried to take political advantage of Diana's tragedy in his now infamous "people's princess" remark. But at the time he was a young and ambitious politician at the peak of his popularity, so it is at least understandable that it would be his natural instinct to act as he did.

But, as Durham said, the main criticism of Blair today has nothing to do with Diana, but mostly with the Iraq war.

Exactly. He easily makes the top 3 of most unpopular people in Britain, and this has absolutely nothing to do with Diana.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-Tony-Blairs-knighthood-ultimate-insult.html

 

[Alison H]

I guess she is probably very excited!

I also do wonder what the media or indeed the public would call her in the future. Would she still be called Cherrie Blair or Mrs Blair? Or indeed Lady Blair?

She's Cherie Booth professionally. Her official title will now be Lady Blair.

She's always claimed to be a socialist, and some socialists don't believe in using titles, but somehow I can't see her sticking to Ms Booth or Mrs Blair.

Padams, good point about Britannia - the Queen was *very* upset about that.

There are comments in today's papers regarding Blair and Iraq, but it is the norm for former PMs to be made Knights/Ladies of the Garter, and they've all had their controversies.

 

[Mbruno]

Yes, a list from the Lord chamberlain's office in regards to Royal Arms. Sarah is listed at the end and as both York ladies are listed along with their husbands its obviously quite up to date.

https://www.royal.uk/use-royal-arms

https://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/media/annex_d_-_royal_family_11.pdf

And the list incidentally shows that the Royal Household disagrees with Mr Bercow's ideological position that it is "sexist" to address women by their husbands' titles.

Coincidentally, I was recently rewatching the funeral of the Queen Mother on YouTube and it caught my attention that even a princess of the blood like HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco was referred to by the BBC as "Princess Ernst August of Hanover" even though hers is a substantive title and her husband's is merely a title of pretense.

 

[An Ard Ri]

She's Cherie Booth professionally. Her official title will now be Lady Blair.

Lady Blair CBE I forgot that Cherrie was appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in the 2013 New Year Honours.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

And the list incidentally shows that the Royal Household disagrees with Mr Bercow's ideological position that it is "sexist" to address women by their husbands' titles.

Coincidentally, I was recently rewatching the funeral of the Queen Mother on YouTube and it caught my attention that even a princess of the blood like HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco was referred to by the BBC as "Princess Ernst August of Hanover" even though hers is a substantive title and her husband's is merely a title of pretense.

"Princess Ernst August of Hanover" is still a weird choice as she is married to the Prince of Hanover, a title which will not be disputed by the British royal family.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

"Princess Ernst August of Hanover" is still a weird choice as she is married to the Prince of Hanover, a title which will not be disputed by the British royal family.

That's indeed confusing. My understanding is that unlike in Britain, there is no rule in Germany to prevent the head of a house from being referred to by his given name. On the other hand, if they were relying on German protocol, one would expect them to use Caroline's own first name rather than her husband's. (There was a tradition in Germany of referring to consorts by the first names of their husbands, but is is no longer followed in most German houses.)

And the list incidentally shows that the Royal Household disagrees with Mr Bercow's ideological position that it is "sexist" to address women by their husbands' titles.

Not necessarily. It could very well be that when given a choice between conforming to tradition and combating sexism, the Royal House prefers the former.

 

[padams2359]

Of all the honors of the last several years, the only one I am confused about is Denis Thatcher receiving a hereditary peerage as opposed to a lifetime peerage. Outside of the family, that is almost unheard of in this day and age.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Of all the honors of the last several years, the only one I am confused about is Denis Thatcher receiving a hereditary peerage as opposed to a lifetime peerage. Outside of the family, that is almost unheard of in this day and age.

Three politicians and a spouse to a politician were created hereditary peer (and they were the last creations outside the royal family as well).

William Whitelaw, 1st Viscount Whitelaw (best known as Home Secretary under Thatcher)

George Thomas, 1st Viscount Tonypandy (best known as Speaker of the House of Commons)

Harold MacMillan, 1st Earl of Stockton, Viscount MacMillan of Ovenden (best known as Prime Minister)

Denis Thatcher, 1st Baronet (spouse to former Prime Minister Thatcher)

My guess is that Mr Thatcher was given (the lowest possible) hereditary peerage instead of Mrs Thatcher because she was not able to pass a title to her son and bestowing it on Denis was a solution.

 

[Alison H]

And the list incidentally shows that the Royal Household disagrees with Mr Bercow's ideological position that it is "sexist" to address women by their husbands' titles.

Coincidentally, I was recently rewatching the funeral of the Queen Mother on YouTube and it caught my attention that even a princess of the blood like HSH Princess Caroline of Monaco was referred to by the BBC as "Princess Ernst August of Hanover" even though hers is a substantive title and her husband's is merely a title of pretense.

That's the way it goes. The first Princess Beatrice became Princess Henry of Battenberg.

Yes, I think Denis Thatcher was given a hereditary peerage purely so that it could be passed on.

 

[Durham]

Dennis Thatcher was made a baronet not a peer. His wife was given a life peerage.

It is true Thatcher was a divisive figure but that was about ideology. Left v right etc. The normal sort of political divisions. But Blair's legacy is very different. This is not a politics forum but the bitter controversy around Britain's involvement in the Iraq invasion, questions over weapons of mass destruction etc, will never go away & Blair will never escape it.

 

[Mbruno]

Dennis Thatcher was made a baronet not a peer. His wife was given a life peerage.

Is it true that Margaret Thatcher was offered a hereditary earldom, but turned it down? Or is it just a rumor?

 

[Prinsara]

And the list incidentally shows that the Royal Household disagrees with Mr Bercow's ideological position that it is "sexist" to address women by their husbands' titles.

It's hardly ideological or even the Speaker's position, given as it's fairly ancient Commons rule that "we don't name people". Which you don't.

If you then choose to refer to someone in public by spouse's title rather than professional chosen name, that's not only sexist and lazy but rather patronizing into the bargain.

The Court and Parliament are obviously not the same institutions, but the original topic was whether a woman in Britain HAS to be referred to by spouse's title, or even surname. She doesn't.

 

[Mbruno]

It's hardly ideological or even the Speaker's position, given as it's fairly ancient Commons rule that "we don't name people". Which you don't.

How was Lady Astor cited in the House of Commons when she became the first seated female MP?

Here is a link to her maiden speech .

 

[Prinsara]

How was Lady Astor cited in the House of Commons when she became the first seated MP in 1919?

Here is a link to her maiden speech .

I’m afraid I'm not seeing where Lady Astor was improperly "named" against procedure by a fellow MP as something other than "the honourable gentlewoman".

If you're implying that the social standards of more than a century ago are still applicable, I also can't see how.