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  #301  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Didn't we also see it just recently with the latest Honors list that there were complaints that there were more honors awarded to the "Ins" rather than the "Outs" as far as Brexit was going at the time? Or something similar as I really don't remember due to lack of coffee in the system at this time.
Yes and that did Cameron so well didn't it

There is always a stir when The Honours List comes out simply because you're always going to get the opposition disagreeing with what the current political party do. T

A lot of people forget, not TRF people, that the list comes from the government and not Her Majesty. The Daily Mail, and sometimes the BBC attempt to "push" the list on The Queen.

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It's a shame for anyone to be okay with the fact that the Garter, Thistle and other senior orders are an all white club.
I find it disturbing that someone can attempt to take the moral high ground over others when there is no need to do so.

You simply have to accept that at this moment in time, there aren't any ethnic minorities that are deserved of orders such as The Garter or Thistle. That is not because The Queen doesn't choose to honour them, it's because they don't exist.

Current Garter Knights include;

1, The Lord Carrington Known for Former Secretary-General of NATO and Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs
2, Field Marshal The Lord Bramall known for being the Former Chief of Defence Staff and Lord Lieutenant of Greater London
3, The Lord Sainsbury of Preston Candover known for being Businessman and philanthropist
4, The Lord Ashburton known for being Banker and businessman
5, Sir Ninian Stephen known for being the Former Governor-General of Australia and judge
6,Sir Timothy Colman known for being Businessman, yachtsman and former Lord Lieutenant of Norfolk
7, The Duke of Abercorn known for being the Former Lord Steward of the Household
8, Sir William Gladstone known for being Former Chief Scout of the United Kingdom
9, Field Marshal The Lord Inge known for being the Former Chief of Defence Staff and Constable of the Tower of London.

10, Sir Antony Acland known for being Former Ambassador, Permanent Secretary to the FCO and Head of the Diplomatic Service
11, Major General The Duke of Westminster known for being Landowner and former Territorial Army Officer
12, The Lord Butler of Brockwell known for being the Former Cabinet Secretary and Head of the Civil Service
13,The Lord Morris of Aberavon known for being the Former Attorney-General and Secretary of State for Wales
14, Sir John Major known for being Former Prime Minister
15, The Lord Luce known for being the Former Lord Chamberlain and Governor of Gibraltar
16, Sir Thomas Dunne known for being the Former Lord Lieutenant of Herefordshire and of Worcestershire
17, The Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers known for being the Former Lord Chief Justice and President of the Supreme Court
18, Admiral of the Fleet The Lord Boyce known for being the Former Chief of Defence Staff
19, Marshal of the Royal Air Force The Lord Stirrup known for being the Former Chief of Defence Staff

20, The Baroness Manningham-Buller known for being the Former Director-General of MI5
21, The Lord King of Lothbury known for being the Former Governor of the Bank of England

22, The Lord Shuttleworth known for being the Lord Lieutenant of Lancashire
23, Sir David Brewer known for being Lord Lieutenant of Greater London and former Lord Mayor of London


Highlighted in Red are people who have been appointed for work they have done.

Highlighted in Blue are people who have been appointed for being Lord-Lieutenants current or former, becoming a Lord Lieutenant is a decision taken by The Prime Minister.

Highlighted in Green are people who have been appointed for their work in political/monetary areas of society.

Highlighted in Orange are people who have been appointed for defence related work or others (such as Sir William Gladstone).

The only reason these people have recieved the garter, are because of the positions they were placed in by other people. Therefore when The Queen honours these people, as she rightly should depending on what they've done, she did not put them in that position in the first place. Your accusation of a lack of ethnic diversity lies with the people who appoint men and woman to the positions of potential honour.

I could do the same for all other orders, but you get my point I hope.

OBE's, MBE's and CBE's are awarded by the government and not The Queen.
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  #302  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
No, I think it's brilliant that people receive the orders based on merit, Osipi. What's the sense in giving people the order for basically nothing? The orders should always be earned. What I'm saying is that there are lots of distinguished people out there, who comes from different ethnic backgrounds that also deserve the orders based on their merit.

Right now it seems like the only people that meritly receive the senior orders are white men and white women. I bet you the next person that's appointed to the Garter or Thistle will be white.
Would you find just one for me please? If there's a lot of them out there, it should be relatively easy to find just one.
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  #303  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:28 PM
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Would you find just one for me please? If there's a lot of them out there, it should be relatively easy to find just one.
I'm not going to go searching for people of different ethnic backgrounds who deserve these orders, Osipi. That's not my job! The job lies with those are in charge of appointing deserving people to these senior orders of chivalry.
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  #304  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Would you find just one for me please? If there's a lot of them out there, it should be relatively easy to find just one.
Here you go, here is a potential future Garter Member
Greater London Lieutenancy | Her Majesty’s Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London
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  #305  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:33 PM
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Brilliant!! Thanks so much for finding that. From what I've been reading, over time, this gentleman most likely will fit the criteria for a future Order of the Garter installation. He's certainly achieved a high level of service to crown and country so far.
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  #306  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
The job lies with those are in charge of appointing deserving people to these senior orders of chivalry.
Nope.

The job lies with people considerings others for roles of high ranking positions.

For instance currently;

The Head of The Bank of England is Mark Carney (White Canadian).
Head of MI5 is Andrew Parker (White British).
Secretary General of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg (Norwegian White)
Governor General of Australia is Peter Gosgrove (Australian White).
Lord Lieutenant of Norfolk is Richard Jewson (White British).
Lord Steward of the Household is James Ramsay, Earl of Dalhousie (White British).
Chief of Defence Staff is Sir Nick Houghton (White British).
Head of the Civil Service is Sir Jeremy Heywood (White British).
Secretary of State for Wales is Alun Cairns (White British).
Governor of Gibraltar is Lieutenant General Davies (White British).


You see the pattern.
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  #307  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Here you go, here is a potential future Garter Member
Greater London Lieutenancy | Her Majesty’s Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London
Lumutqueen, nice find! Will he be considered for the Garter order? That would be a miracle, but beautiful if it happened.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Nope.

The job lies with people considerings others for roles of high ranking positions.

For instance currently;

The Head of The Bank of England is Mark Carney (White Canadian).
Head of MI5 is Andrew Parker (White British).
Secretary General of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg (Norwegian White)
Governor General of Australia is Peter Gosgrove (Australian White).
Lord Lieutenant of Norfolk is Richard Jewson (White British).
Lord Steward of the Household is James Ramsay, Earl of Dalhousie (White British).
Chief of Defence Staff is Sir Nick Houghton (White British).
Head of the Civil Service is Sir Jeremy Heywood (White British).
Secretary of State for Wales is Alun Cairns (White British).
Governor of Gibraltar is Lieutenant General Davies (White British).


You see the pattern.
Whoever involved in the selection process for the senior orders of chivalry, should start thinking outside of the box and realize there are people out there of diversity who deserve such honors based on their merits too.
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  #308  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Lumutqueen, nice find! Will he be considered for the Garter order? That would be a miracle, but beautiful if it happened.
As much as the country needs a new Prime Minister I am not that person. The 24th space will more than likely not be announced until April 23rd 2017.
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  #309  
Old 07-09-2016, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Lumutqueen, nice find! Will he be considered for the Garter order? That would be a miracle, but beautiful if it happened.




Whoever involved in the selection process for the senior orders of chivalry, should start thinking outside of the box and realize there are people out there of diversity who deserve such honors based on their merits too.
I don't think it'd be a miracle if it did happen but a recognition of a man's contribution via the positions he's held to crown and country. This is the crux of the matter. It is position and merit and service that is regarded as criteria for such Orders and not the actual person themselves.

When you're looking at achievements listed on a piece of paper, you only see the black ink on white paper. On the website giving the information about the Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London, most of us would never have known the man was black unless his picture was posted with it.
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  #310  
Old 07-09-2016, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I don't think it'd be a miracle if it did happen but a recognition of a man's contribution via the positions he's held to crown and country. This is the crux of the matter. It is position and merit and service that is regarded as criteria for such Orders and not the actual person themselves.

When you're looking at achievements listed on a piece of paper, you only see the black ink on white paper. On the website giving the information about the Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London, most of us would never have known the man was black unless his picture was posted with it.
It would be a miracle to me because despite his service and dedication and merit, people his color haven't been appointed to such an order, Osipi. You seem to think I'm dismissing merit. I'm not! I totally support those who rise to such positions, merit and service. The idea is to consider and appoint those of diverse backgrounds who have these positions and merit for these senior orders. Sadly, I don't think this will happen at the moment, because what I've seen so far is a system that seems like it operate in a restricted manner.
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  #311  
Old 07-09-2016, 03:03 PM
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Then again, when one position opens up for the garter, what makes one person more eligible? Should it be based on skin color? How about gender? Religion? Lord lieutenants alone there is a huge spectrum to choose from and that is obviously not the only pool.

length of service:
Nicholas Alexander, Earl of Caledon- lord lieutenant of Armaigh since 1989 (longest current serving at 27 years). Also a justice of the peace.

race:
Mushtaq Ahmed: east Indian, first Asian provost of Scotland, LL of Lankanshire

military service as well as civil:
Gerald Maitland-Crew was a captain in the king's royal hussairs, brigadier in the royal company of archers and is on the tertiary army committee. As deputy since 1989 he has served Roxburgh for 27 years, 9 as LL

gender:
Among the numerous female LL's, Elizabeth Legge-Bourke is the longest current serving having ben appointed for Powys in 1998 (18 years).

Historically Lord lieutenants are more likely to receive the RVO. There are a lot of things to consider when choosing a new garter/thistle member. Choosing an order of merit member based on skin color instead of merit, seems against the very principal. What makes Mr Olisa any more worth the honor then any other LL's in the UK? Simply a need for color?
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  #312  
Old 07-09-2016, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
It would be a miracle to me because despite his service and dedication and merit, people his color haven't been appointed to such an order, Osipi. You seem to think I'm dismissing merit. I'm not! I totally support those who rise to such positions, merit and service. The idea is to consider and appoint those of diverse backgrounds who have these positions and merit for these senior orders. Sadly, I don't think this will happen at the moment, because what I've seen so far is a system that seems like it operate in a restricted manner.
Of course I don't think you're disregarding merit at all m'friend.

I just don't see the system as it is now as being operated in a restrictive manner but rather looking at candidates that have been in service or positions for a long time and have spent decades at what they do. As more and more people of different backgrounds and gender enter into these positions of service and make considerable contributions over the years, more and more of them will be considered for knighthood in the orders of chivalry. It just takes time. For this reason too, the Knights of the Garter and the Knights of the Thistle generally are, for the most part, older white men. It looks like a "good old boys" club but that's mainly because it was only the "good old boys" that attained these positions for a very long time and that is changing now.
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  #313  
Old 07-09-2016, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Then again, when one position opens up for the garter, what makes one person more eligible? Should it be based on skin color? How about gender? Religion? Lord lieutenants alone there is a huge spectrum to choose from and that is obviously not the only pool.

length of service:
Nicholas Alexander, Earl of Caledon- lord lieutenant of Armaigh since 1989 (longest current serving at 27 years). Also a justice of the peace.

race:
Mushtaq Ahmed: east Indian, first Asian provost of Scotland, LL of Lankanshire

military service as well as civil:
Gerald Maitland-Crew was a captain in the king's royal hussairs, brigadier in the royal company of archers and is on the tertiary army committee. As deputy since 1989 he has served Roxburgh for 27 years, 9 as LL

gender:
Among the numerous female LL's, Elizabeth Legge-Bourke is the longest current serving having ben appointed for Powys in 1998 (18 years).

Historically Lord lieutenants are more likely to receive the RVO. There are a lot of things to consider when choosing a new garter/thistle member. Choosing an order of merit member based on skin color instead of merit, seems against the very principal. What makes Mr Olisa any more worth the honor then any other LL's in the UK? Simply a need for color?
Race wouldn't stand out if the senior order system included those of different ethnic backgrounds. You would see a variety of people from all walks of life being honored for their years of service and dedication. Currently there's only one race being honored in the most senior orders of chivalry.
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  #314  
Old 07-09-2016, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Race wouldn't stand out if the senior order system included those of different ethnic backgrounds. You would see a variety of people from all walks of life being honored for their years of service and dedication. Currently there's only one race being honored in the most senior orders of chivalry.
Race wouldn't stand out either if the appointments of people with different ethnic backgrounds and gender had started around the time of Queen Elizabeth's coronation rather than in more recent times.

Another aspect that I'd like to present too is the difference between the Orders of Garter and Thistle from the other list of honors that are presented to people from all walks of life. As I've recently discovered, thanks to our own roseroyal and wondering if perhaps Robert Hardy should be deemed eligible for a knighthood. If a British person believes a person (no matter who it is) should be on the honors list, there is an application that any British citizen can use to nominate said person for an honor. With the Order of the Garter and the Order of the Thistle, it doesn't work that way.

It *is* possible for any outstanding citizen of the UK regardless of race, creed, gender or any other category to be deemed worthy of recognition. The esteemed orders of chivalry is very exclusive in numbers and it takes work in an esteemed position over a lifetime to be recognized and installed as a knight in these orders and most, if not all, of the knights have held a very high position of service for years.

Case in point with Mr. Olisa being appointed the Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London. He just was appointed in 2015 to that position. To attain that position is, in and of itself, a huge honor and reflects on this man's contributions to the UK. It is this step that bring him much closer to being selected as a Knight of the Garter. In fact, the person that was most recently knighted to the Order of the Garter this year, Sir David Brewer, is the man that Mr. Olisa has taken over duties from.

I am really learning from this discussion and am enjoying it immensely.
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  #315  
Old 07-09-2016, 05:50 PM
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The last 3 appointed to the Garter:

-Sir David Brewer: JP since 1979, an alderman and member of London city counsel since 1996. He served a year as alderman sheriff in 2002, and as Lord Mayor of London in 2005-6. He was LL from 2008-2015. He is post master for both the company of taylors and blacksmiths, and liveryman for the company of insurers. President of the Cornish society since 2005.

-Charles Shuttleworth, Baron Shuttleworth: Has served as LL of Lancashire for 19 years and is the chairman of the association of LL's since 2008. He is also chairman of the Duchy of Lancaster since 2006, having served since 1998. He is a member of the royal institution of chartered surveyors and was chairman of Abbey bank up until 2004.

-Baron King of Lothbury: director with the Bank of England since 1990, chief economist in 1991-98, deputy director from 1998-2003, and chairman of their monetary policy from 2003-2013. On the advisory board of the London Symphony, President of the Worcestershire cricket club, and a trustee of the National Gallery. As of 2013 he entered the house of lords, after leaving the bank, as a crossbencher.


Order of the Thistle:

-Robert, Baron Smith of Kelvin: former Governor of the BBC. Chancellor of the University of Strathclyde, knighted in 1999, member of the house of lords since 2008. Worked for decades in banking including Bank of Scotland. Past involvements include president of the Scottish foundation, on the board for 2014 commonwealth games, chairman of the trustees for the National Museums of Scotland (1993-2002), past president for the association of chartered accountants, vice chairman of the museums and galleries commission (1996-98).

-David Douglas-Home: In 1999 when the house of lords was limited, he was on of 92 elected to remain. He is president of the British association for shooting and conservation. And Chairman of the Grovesnor group.

-Narendra Patel: is a Tanzanian born of Indian origin obstetrician. Chancellor of the University of Dundee. He has served as a fellow and chairman of a succession of medical associations and trusts. He is a crossbencher in the house of lords.

The order of the bath:
-Andrew Pullford, air chief marshall of the RAF. chief of air staff since 2013, he has seen duty in Ireland, Iraq and the Falklands.
-Admiral George Zambellas: first sea lord and chief of the naval staff from 2013-2016. He won the distinguished service cross as a pilot and saw sevice in Sierra Leone. He was named fleet commander in 2013.
-Nicholas MacPherson: longest serving permanent secretary, is PS of the treasury since 2005. He stepped down from the treasury in March.


Certainly all of these men, including one Indian, have earned their place based on merits and not their race. Which of these men should be displaced simply to fill some quota???
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Old 07-09-2016, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Race wouldn't stand out either if the appointments of people with different ethnic backgrounds and gender had started around the time of Queen Elizabeth's coronation rather than in more recent times.

Another aspect that I'd like to present too is the difference between the Orders of Garter and Thistle from the other list of honors that are presented to people from all walks of life. As I've recently discovered, thanks to our own roseroyal and wondering if perhaps Robert Hardy should be deemed eligible for a knighthood. If a British person believes a person (no matter who it is) should be on the honors list, there is an application that any British citizen can use to nominate said person for an honor. With the Order of the Garter and the Order of the Thistle, it doesn't work that way.

It *is* possible for any outstanding citizen of the UK regardless of race, creed, gender or any other category to be deemed worthy of recognition. The esteemed orders of chivalry is very exclusive in numbers and it takes work in an esteemed position over a lifetime to be recognized and installed as a knight in these orders and most, if not all, of the knights have held a very high position of service for years.

Case in point with Mr. Olisa being appointed the Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London. He just was appointed in 2015 to that position. To attain that position is, in and of itself, a huge honor and reflects on this man's contributions to the UK. It is this step that bring him much closer to being selected as a Knight of the Garter. In fact, the person that was most recently knighted to the Order of the Garter this year, Sir David Brewer, is the man that Mr. Olisa has taken over duties from.

I am really learning from this discussion and am enjoying it immensely.
I'm too enjoying this discussion.
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  #317  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:09 PM
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The Royal Family @RoyalFamily
Her Majesty invests Sir James Dyson, Professor Dame Ann Dowling and The Lord Darzi of Denham with the Order of Merit

https://twitter.com/RoyalFamily/stat...94527167385600
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  #318  
Old 07-28-2016, 07:27 AM
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Dame Vera Lynn, the Forces' sweetheart, has received her latest honour from the Queen in an investiture ceremony held at her village home.

The 99-year-old, whose songs brought hope during the darkest days of the Second World War, was made a Member of the Order of the Companions of Honour in the Queen's Birthday Honours list.

She could not make it to Buckingham Palace and received the accolade - for nearly eight decades of service to entertainment and charity - at an investiture ceremony at her home in Ditchling, near Brighton, on Wednesday.
Read more: Dame Vera Lynn receives Queen's honour for eight decades of service in ceremony at her home*
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Old 07-28-2016, 07:34 AM
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A well deserved award for Dame Vera and she can add being a Member of the Order of the Companions to her list of other honours!
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  #320  
Old 07-31-2016, 08:06 PM
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48 people have been put forward for honours, including a bunch of knighthoods

Quote:
The former Prime Minister’s leaked resignation honour list contains the names of top remain campaigners, including four cabinet ministers who backed staying in the European Union.

Phillip Hammond, Michael Fallon, David Lidington and Patrick McLoughlin have all been put forward for knighthoods.

Top of the list are also donors Ian Taylor and Andrew Cook, who together have forked out more than Ł3million for the Tories under Mr Cameron and the remain campaign.
Read more: Cameron's honour list nominates remain campaigners and Tory donors for awards | Politics | News | Daily Express
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