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  #281  
Old 07-09-2016, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
But Dman made it clear he wasn't talking about the general honours system which is outside of the Queen's control. I understood he was speaking about the orders in the Queen's gift - chiefly the 'top' orders as the media like to refer to them, where there is a startling lack of diversity.

One Knight of Indian heritage and two Lady Companions out of 39 does not, in my view, show diversity. While I am opposed to anyone being awarded an honour on anything less than merit, I wonder if there aren't more worthy non-Anglo Saxons males in British public life.

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Not sure how giving these orders to ordinary people would bring a media backlash. It should be a media backlash over the very fact that these orders lack diversity. It shouldn't take the government to advise The Queen to award the orders to deserving people of different ethnic backgrounds too.
There is no call for a media backlash because the Orders are part of the History of the UK and that history is not to be tossed out the window becuase you don't think they are PC enough. I think you need to go back and read up on the history of these Orders. They are not the type of orders that need to become a political football bounded by PC rules.

Being PC doesn't make something right or fair and these orders are bounded by absolute numbers. One only becomes a Knight on the death of an incumbant. Thus the fact that the Knights are both old and predominently male is hardly surprising. Given time, this too will change, but the relative age of the Knights will not as they each reflect a lifetime of service to Queen, Country and even the World.

Since they only get kicked out for treason, I don't see a huge turnover in the immediate future!
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  #282  
Old 07-09-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
There is no call for a media backlash because the Orders are part of the History of the UK and that history is not to be tossed out the window becuase you don't think they are PC enough. I think you need to go back and read up on the history of these Orders. They are not the type of orders that need to become a political football bounded by PC rules.

Being PC doesn't make something right or fair and these orders are bounded by absolute numbers. One only becomes a Knight on the death of an incumbant. Thus the fact that the Knights are both old and predominently male is hardly surprising. Given time, this too will change, but the relative age of the Knights will not as they each reflect a lifetime of service to Queen, Country and even the World.

Since they only get kicked out for treason, I don't see a huge turnover in the immediate future!
MARG, I know the history behind these orders of chivalry. It's not about being PC, but rather about fairness in today's society and making sure people from different walks of life are embraced by the system. I love the fact the the members are honored in such a way, but I'm sure there many deserving people that could be included in these orders. There's something wrong when one only see a certain race being appointed to the memberships.

I think there's no media attention to these issues because a lot of people really don't care about this old ancient system and think of it as an irrelevant piece of theatre. Also, for those who do know about it are most likely totally fine about the racial inequality involved in the selection process.

I would hope Charles and William will acknowledge and invest people from different ethnic backgrounds and from all walks of life in these order in the future. Right now the system is being run in an unfair way.
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  #283  
Old 07-09-2016, 09:06 AM
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Britain has become much more diverse in the last 20 years, but it's still an overwhelmingly 'white' country.

Given the senior orders of chivalry are awarded for lifetime service to the country, it's not really surprising we see older, white people.

As more time goes by, this will naturally change and we will see more diversity.
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  #284  
Old 07-09-2016, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Britain has become much more diverse in the last 20 years, but it's still an overwhelmingly 'white' country.

Given the senior orders of chivalry are awarded for lifetime service to the country, it's not really surprising we see older, white people.

As more time goes by, this will naturally change and we will see more diversity.
I know what you mean. I just think by 2016 we would've seen diversity being embraced by the senior orders by now.
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  #285  
Old 07-09-2016, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
MARG, I know the history behind these orders of chivalry. It's not about being PC, but rather about fairness in today's society and making sure people from different walks of life are embraced by the system. I love the fact the the members are honored in such a way, but I'm sure there many deserving people that could be included in these orders. There's something wrong when one only see a certain race being appointed to the memberships.

I think there's no media attention to these issues because a lot of people really don't care about this old ancient system and think of it as an irrelevant piece of theatre. Also, for those who do know about it are most likely totally fine about the racial inequality involved in the selection process.

I would hope Charles and William will acknowledge and invest people from different ethnic backgrounds and from all walks of life in these order in the future. Right now the system is being run in an unfair way.
1: But Dman, we have the Order of the British Empire. This order rewards service in a wide range of areas, from contributions to the arts and sciences, work with charitable and welfare organisations and public service outside the Civil Service, with honours that include the well-known MBE and OBE. The order is awarded to people of all ages, and are full of people of every race, colour and creed every year. And several women from all walks of life mostly from 50 to 70 is awarded Dame Commander of the order. And men from all walks of life are Knight Bachelor.

The British monarch is Sovereign of the Order, and appoints all other members of the Order (by convention, on the advice of the governments of the United Kingdom and some Commonwealth realms).

2: The Order of the Garter/Thistle honors members of royal families, peers, statesmen, and eminent military commanders (mostly still does), and is the personal gift of the monarch.

If the monarch starts to awards these orders to ordinary people (who maybe have political opinions) then the monarch is going to be heavily criticized, and there will be groups of people who will demand that a person they like should have the order (as we se is the case with the Dame Commander title in British Empire Order and the Knight Bachelor title). So if Charles and William changes it (which I'm pretty sure they don't do), then they're going to get big problems with politicians, campaigners and the press etc.

And what is the point with the Order of the British Empire and the rest of the honour system if the Garter/Thistle orders are going to be regular? I thinks you should read more about the honour system in the links in my above post.
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  #286  
Old 07-09-2016, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
1: But Dman, we have the Order of the British Empire. This order rewards service in a wide range of areas, from contributions to the arts and sciences, work with charitable and welfare organisations and public service outside the Civil Service, with honours that include the well-known MBE and OBE. The order is awarded to people of all ages, and are full of people of every race, colour and creed every year. And several women from all walks of life mostly from 50 to 70 is awarded Dame Commander of the order. And men from all walks of life are Knight Bachelor.

The British monarch is Sovereign of the Order, and appoints all other members of the Order (by convention, on the advice of the governments of the United Kingdom and some Commonwealth realms).

2: The Order of the Garter/Thistle honors members of royal families, peers, statesmen, and eminent military commanders (mostly still does), and is the personal gift of the monarch.

If the monarch starts to awards these orders to ordinary people (who maybe have political opinions) then the monarch is going to be heavily criticized, and there will be groups of people who will demand that a person they like should have the order (as we se is the case with the Dame Commander title in British Empire Order and the Knight Bachelor title). So if Charles and William changes it (which I'm pretty sure they don't do), then they're going to get big problems with politicians, campaigners and the press etc.

And what is the point with the order of the The Order of the British Empire and the rest of the honour system then if the Garter/Thistle orders are going to be regular? I thinks you should read more about the honour system in the links in my above post.
What's wrong with awarding the Garter, Thistle, etc, to statesmen and peers of different ethnic backgrounds? Why must the senior orders be an only white person club?

There's a great deal of people that's held in high esteem that could be included in these senior orders, ROYAL NORWAY. There's no good excuse for only appointing white men and white women.

The OBE's, CBE's are great, but the most senior orders should also reflect diversity, ROYAL NORWAY.

There will be no backlash from the media if the most senior orders of chivalry were to become diversified. If anything, the change will be welcomed with open arms.

It's 2016, not 1348! It's been time to make some changes to these orders.

It's a shame that racial inequality is still alive, well and thriving in our world.
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  #287  
Old 07-09-2016, 10:16 AM
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But most senior military commanders, most senior statesmen and most members of the 'establishment' are white.

It's changing, but it takes time. It's only been the last 25-30 years that Britain has become more diverse.
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  #288  
Old 07-09-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
But most senior military commanders, most senior statesmen and most members of the 'establishment' are white.

It's changing, but it takes time. It's only been the last 25-30 years that Britain has become more diverse.
Rudolph, I hope those senior orders become more diverse under Charles and William's reigns. To continue on appointing only white men and women in the Garter, Thistle and others really don't make much sense in this day and age.

It has disappointed me that The Queen hasn't diversified these orders of chivalry. I understand that she was raised in a different age where the very thought of different races (outside of royal families) being included in these honors would've been frowned upon, but she should have done so by now.

It also highlights that changes should be made within the military, senior statesmenships and members of the establishmement.
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  #289  
Old 07-09-2016, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
What's wrong with awarding the Garter, Thistle, etc, to statesmen and peers of different ethnic backgrounds? Why must the senior orders be an only white person club?
Ok, name a few of non-white British statesmen or eminent military commanders, who deserve to be awarded for their lifetime achievement
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  #290  
Old 07-09-2016, 11:54 AM
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Ok, name a few of non-white British statesmen or eminent military commanders, who deserve to be awarded for their lifetime achievement
Don't know the names personally, but I'm sure there are people out there of different backgrounds who has served their countries and communities well to deserve the honor of the Garter, Thistle, Merit, etc. The very fact that these orders of chivalry lack diversity is pretty much a down right shame. No one can tell me that The Queen and others involved in these orders can't find deserving people of different ethnic backgrounds to appoint.
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  #291  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
What's wrong with awarding the Garter, Thistle, etc, to statesmen and peers of different ethnic backgrounds? Why must the senior orders be an only white person club?

There's a great deal of people that's held in high esteem that could be included in these senior orders, ROYAL NORWAY. There's no good excuse for only appointing white men and white women.


The OBE's, CBE's are great, but the most senior orders should also reflect diversity, ROYAL NORWAY.

There will be no backlash from the media if the most senior orders of chivalry were to become diversified. If anything, the change will be welcomed with open arms.

It's 2016, not 1348! It's been time to make some changes to these orders.

It's a shame that racial inequality is still alive, well and thriving in our world.
Dman, you must read what I write, and not just answer some of my quotes. You can disagree, but you have to accept that I have different opinions than you.

The Order of the Garter/Thistle honors members of royal families, peers, statesmen, and eminent military commanders (mostly still does), and is the personal gift of the monarch.

These peoples (as Rudolph wrote) are mostly white older men.

If the monarch starts to awards these orders to ordinary people (who maybe have political opinions) then the monarch is going to be heavily criticized, and there will be groups of people who will demand that a person they like should have the order (as we se is the case with the Dame Commander title in British Empire Order and the Knight Bachelor title). So if Charles and William changes it (which I'm pretty sure they don't do), then they're going to get big problems with politicians, campaigners and the press etc.

Can you imagine what would happen if the Queen had awarded these orders to peoples with political connection with the Labor/Tories or if she had given them (as she did before) to former prime ministers.

The media has (in the past two years) started to politicize the Queen and this has made it even worse.

And yes, there's a great deal of ordinary people that's held in high esteem, and they are awarded the Order of the British Empire. This order rewards service in a wide range of areas, from contributions to the arts and sciences, work with charitable and welfare organisations and public service outside the Civil Service, with honours that include the well-known MBE and OBE. The order is awarded to people of all ages, and are full of people of every race, colour and creed every year. And several women from all walks of life mostly from 50 to 70 is awarded Dame Commander of the order. And men from all walks of life are Knight Bachelor.

And these are the most senior orders of chivalry which can be awarded to ordinary people.

The British monarch is Sovereign of the Order, and appoints all other members of the Order (by convention, on the advice of the governments of the United Kingdom and some Commonwealth realms).

The whole point with the Order of the British Empire today is to give it to ordinary people.

We se the same in Sweden and Denmark. The Royal Order of the Seraphim (Sweden) is only awarded to royals/head of state. The Order of the Elephant is only awarded to royals/head of state, with some very few exceptions.

I hope this helps, because I don't see the point in discussing this anymore.
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  #292  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:22 PM
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Didn't we also see it just recently with the latest Honors list that there were complaints that there were more honors awarded to the "Ins" rather than the "Outs" as far as Brexit was going at the time? Or something similar as I really don't remember due to lack of coffee in the system at this time.
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  #293  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
Dman, you must read what I write, and not just answer some of my quotes. You can disagree, but you have to accept that I have different opinions than you.

The Order of the Garter/Thistle honors members of royal families, peers, statesmen, and eminent military commanders (mostly still does), and is the personal gift of the monarch.

These peoples (as Rudolph wrote) are mostly white older men.

If the monarch starts to awards these orders to ordinary people (who maybe have political opinions) then the monarch is going to be heavily criticized, and there will be groups of people who will demand that a person they like should have the order (as we se is the case with the Dame Commander title in British Empire Order and the Knight Bachelor title). So if Charles and William changes it (which I'm pretty sure they don't do), then they're going to get big problems with politicians, campaigners and the press etc.

Can you imagine what would happen if the Queen had awarded these orders to peoples with political connection with the Labor/Tories or if she had given them (as she did before) to former prime ministers.

The media has (in the past two years) started to politicize the Queen and this has made it even worse.

And yes, there's a great deal of ordinary people that's held in high esteem, and they are awarded the Order of the British Empire. This order rewards service in a wide range of areas, from contributions to the arts and sciences, work with charitable and welfare organisations and public service outside the Civil Service, with honours that include the well-known MBE and OBE. The order is awarded to people of all ages, and are full of people of every race, colour and creed every year. And several women from all walks of life mostly from 50 to 70 is awarded Dame Commander of the order. And men from all walks of life are Knight Bachelor.

And these are the most senior orders of chivalry which can be awarded to ordinary people.

The British monarch is Sovereign of the Order, and appoints all other members of the Order (by convention, on the advice of the governments of the United Kingdom and some Commonwealth realms).

The whole point with the Order of the British Empire today is to give it to ordinary people.

We se the same in Sweden and Denmark. The Royal Order of the Seraphim (Sweden) is only awarded to royals/head of state. The Order of the Elephant is only awarded to royals/head of state, with some very few exceptions.

I hope this helps, because I don't see the point in discussing this anymore.
Well you may not see a point to discussing this anymore because perhaps you are totally fine with the lack of diversity in these senior orders of chivalry, but I'm not. It's okay for us to agree to disagree.

The very people who The Queen has awarded these honors to do have opinions and political interests.

It's a shame for anyone to be okay with the fact that the Garter, Thistle and other senior orders are an all white club. They may have different interests and experiences, but all The Queen is doing is appointing the same people to these orders. There's no diversity at all. That's a major problem and if it continues like this in the future, then I don't see the point in continuing these orders of chivalry.
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  #294  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:39 PM
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Idris Elba was only just awarded an OBE, and even then many people said he wasn't deserving.

Just Imagine if he was given the Order of the Garter.

Eventually we will see people of colour, but it has to be based on lifetime merit, and not political correctness.
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  #295  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
There's no diversity at all. That's a major problem and if it continues like this in the future, then I don't see the point in continuing these orders of chivalry.
It seems to me that what you're saying is that the honoring of people with these orders of chivalry should be based more in what their skin color is, their DNA from different groups of people, their differences rather than their merit in service to their monarch and country.

No matter what, everyone's blood runs red. I agree with Royal Norway and Rudolph on this one. In time, things will naturally be different as the population in the UK becomes more and more diversified. The orders however, will still always be awarded solely on merit.
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  #296  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Didn't we also see it just recently with the latest Honors list that there were complaints that there were more honors awarded to the "Ins" rather than the "Outs" as far as Brexit was going at the time? Or something similar as I really don't remember due to lack of coffee in the system at this time.
We see complaints all the time, and that is one of the reasons why it would be disastrous for the monarchy, If the monarch starts to awards the Order of the Garter/Thistle to ordinary people.

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Originally Posted by Dman View Post
Well you may not see a point to discussing this anymore because perhaps you are totally fine with the lack of diversity in these senior orders of chivalry, but I'm not. It's okay for us to agree to disagree.

The very people who The Queen has awarded these honors to do have opinions and political interests.

It's a shame for anyone to be okay with the fact that the Garter, Thistle and other senior orders are an all white club. They may have different interests and experiences, but all The Queen is doing is appointing the same people to these orders. There's no diversity at all. That's a major problem and if it continues like this in the future, then I don't see the point in continuing these orders of chivalry.
Dman, I'm a little surprised that you take this rude tone to me, for there is no reason to do so.

And I'm not fine with the lack of diversity in these senior orders of chivalry or no place else, but as I've tried to explain in several posts now: The Order of the Garter/Thistle honors members of royal families, peers, statesmen, and eminent military commanders (mostly still does), and is the personal gift of the monarch.

These peoples (as Rudolph wrote) are mostly white older men.

If the monarch starts to awards these orders to ordinary people (who maybe have political opinions) then the monarch is going to be heavily criticized, and there will be groups of people who will demand that a person they like should have the order (as we se is the case with the Dame Commander title in British Empire Order and the Knight Bachelor title). So if Charles and William changes it (which I'm pretty sure they don't do), then they're going to get big problems with politicians, campaigners and the press etc.

Can you imagine what would happen if the Queen had awarded these orders to peoples with political connection with the Labor/Tories or if she had given them (as she did before) to former prime ministers.

The media has (in the past two years) started to politicize the Queen and this has made it even worse.


And yes, there's a great deal of ordinary people that's held in high esteem, and they are awarded the Order of the British Empire. This order rewards service in a wide range of areas, from contributions to the arts and sciences, work with charitable and welfare organisations and public service outside the Civil Service, with honours that include the well-known MBE and OBE. The order is awarded to people of all ages, and are full of people of every race, colour and creed every year. And several women from all walks of life mostly from 50 to 70 is awarded Dame Commander of the order. And men from all walks of life are Knight Bachelor.

And these are the most senior orders of chivalry which can be awarded to ordinary people.

The British monarch is Sovereign of the Order, and appoints all other members of the Order (by convention, on the advice of the governments of the United Kingdom and some Commonwealth realms).

The whole point with the Order of the British Empire today is to give it to ordinary people.


We se the same in Sweden and Denmark. The Royal Order of the Seraphim (Sweden) is only awarded to royals/head of state. The Order of the Elephant is only awarded to royals/head of state, with some very few exceptions.

And can we please have a nice tone here?
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  #297  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:53 PM
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I am all for diversity. But orders of merit should be that, based on merit. People should not be chosen to fill a quota. There are plenty of things like the OBE that award people of all walks of life. The order of the garter recognizes people for a lifetime of service in certain areas. Should a 30 year old be chosen over a 65 year old, because they haven't met their race quota for the year???

As time goes on, and more people of different races and religion move up the ranks in the political, military and other ranks in the UK, this will change. But Naturally with time, not to meet some PC requirement.

Traditions are around for a reason, like the monarchy itself.
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  #298  
Old 07-09-2016, 12:55 PM
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The Order Of the Garter is so exalted, that not even all former Prime Ministers are awarded it.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown haven't received it, so it's not even automatic for older white men.

As time goes by, we will see a natural increase in people of colour, as they rise to the top ranks of the military and civil service.
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  #299  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The Order Of the Garter is so exalted, that not even all former Prime Ministers are awarded it.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown haven't received it, so it's not even automatic for older white men.

As time goes by, we will see a natural increase in people of colour, as they rise to the top ranks of the military and civil service.
And can you imagine what had happened if Tony Blair, Gordon Brown or David Cameron were to be awarded the Order Of the Garter today.
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  #300  
Old 07-09-2016, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
It seems to me that what you're saying is that the honoring of people with these orders of chivalry should be based more in what their skin color is, their DNA from different groups of people, their differences rather than their merit in service to their monarch and country.

No matter what, everyone's blood runs red. I agree with Royal Norway and Rudolph on this one. In time, things will naturally be different as the population in the UK becomes more and more diversified. The orders however, will still always be awarded solely on merit.
No, I think it's brilliant that people receive the orders based on merit, Osipi. What's the sense in giving people the order for basically nothing? The orders should always be earned. What I'm saying is that there are lots of distinguished people out there, who comes from different ethnic backgrounds that also deserve the orders based on their merit.

Right now it seems like the only people that meritly receive the senior orders are white men and white women. I bet you the next person that's appointed to the Garter or Thistle will be white.

It's been said the reasons why Tony haven't received the Garter is due to the chaos over the Iraq war. Not sure about Gordon Brown. Former PM's have been given the order. Thatcher, Heath, Major, etc.
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