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  #281  
Old 10-23-2019, 03:06 PM
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and state something that I feel probably will go against the grain for some people. The idea of "The Fab Four" being an united front and showing "togetherness" within the royal family, to me, seems like it could be billed as "WilliamandHarry, Diana's boys with wives: The Sequel". This isn't how business is conducted.

There are incentives that both couples are working on together. Heads Together is one and all four of the "The Fab Four" have taken this incentive into their own personal incentives for mental health. The British monarchy, in my opinion, is evolving as it prepares to transition between reigns. Things *are* changing. William and Harry are now full time senior working royals. One is preparing to step into the role of The Duke of Cornwall (and Cambridge) and perhaps The Prince of Wales and eventually will be monarch, himself. Harry is finding his own niche and it makes sense for him to "branch out", create his own foundation and even move his offices to Buckingham Palace. It makes sense as once Charles is King, financing the offices of William and of Harry will be done in separate ways. The "Firm" is the parent company with subsidiaries so to speak.

As the reach of the "Firm" is far and wide and when you throw in the Commonwealth nations, charities and organizations that are on the global level and only so many days in year, to cover more area, it makes sense to work more as individuals than as a "team". Really, when we look at the CC and the engagements listed, most are work of the individual royal. This was even demonstrated in the recent South African tour. Harry did this and Meghan did that.

Grouping four people together for events or engagements just to paint a picture of "unity" would probably mean that less would be done at that time would, to me, scratch individual events and engagements that could have happened.

We'll see the British Royal Family en masse as we usually do. On family occasions such as walking to church on Christmas and Trooping the Color on the balcony and such. When it comes to the "Firm" though and the work the royals do, that's a horse of a different color. Its the family business.
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  #282  
Old 10-23-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state something that I feel probably will go against the grain for some people. The idea of "The Fab Four" being an united front and showing "togetherness" within the royal family, to me, seems like it could be billed as "WilliamandHarry, Diana's boys with wives: The Sequel". This isn't how business is conducted.

There are incentives that both couples are working on together. Heads Together is one and all four of the "The Fab Four" have taken this incentive into their own personal incentives for mental health. The British monarchy, in my opinion, is evolving as it prepares to transition between reigns. Things *are* changing. William and Harry are now full time senior working royals. One is preparing to step into the role of The Duke of Cornwall (and Cambridge) and perhaps The Prince of Wales and eventually will be monarch, himself. Harry is finding his own niche and it makes sense for him to "branch out", create his own foundation and even move his offices to Buckingham Palace. It makes sense as once Charles is King, financing the offices of William and of Harry will be done in separate ways. The "Firm" is the parent company with subsidiaries so to speak.

As the reach of the "Firm" is far and wide and when you throw in the Commonwealth nations, charities and organizations that are on the global level and only so many days in year, to cover more area, it makes sense to work more as individuals than as a "team". Really, when we look at the CC and the engagements listed, most are work of the individual royal. This was even demonstrated in the recent South African tour. Harry did this and Meghan did that.

Grouping four people together for events or engagements just to paint a picture of "unity" would probably mean that less would be done at that time would, to me, scratch individual events and engagements that could have happened.

We'll see the British Royal Family en masse as we usually do. On family occasions such as walking to church on Christmas and Trooping the Color on the balcony and such. When it comes to the "Firm" though and the work the royals do, that's a horse of a different color. Its the family business.
I agree with almost all of this.

In my mind "The Fab Four" is a fantasy, and always was, and doesn't acknowledge that these are adults we are talking about, not still "Diana's boys." They are adults with different talents, resources, and, increasingly, divergent interests and futures, so it seems very artificial and contrived to try to manipulate them into performing together to fulfill some kind of sentimental fantasy. The press would probably love that, but as Osipi points out, it is hardly the most efficient use of their talents.
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  #283  
Old 10-23-2019, 03:36 PM
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There are also many of us that still connect "The Fab Four" with four people that definitely were always a group and rarely in the public eye as individuals until later years. They invaded the US in 1964. I remember it well.

When they split, it also created quite the sensation worldwide. O no! (pun intended)

We're really so used to how things were that change doesn't sit well. I don't think though, in reality, the changes coming about with the "Firm" and how it does things is any kind of indication of family disharmony but rather cementing the structure of the "Firm" to go forward. It began (if I had to pinpoint an occasion) with The Duke of Edinburgh's retirement and has gradually implemented changes .

Do we really think that the Queen would leave things all up in the air to create chaos when she passes and everything is up to Charles to figure out what to do now? The Queen is a pragmatist and likes all her ducks in a neat little row.
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  #284  
Old 10-23-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
There are also many of us that still connect "The Fab Four" with four people that definitely were always a group and rarely in the public eye as individuals until later years. They invaded the US in 1964. I remember it well.

When they split, it also created quite the sensation worldwide. O no! (pun intended)

We're really so used to how things were that change doesn't sit well. I don't think though, in reality, the changes coming about with the "Firm" and how it does things is any kind of indication of family disharmony but rather cementing the structure of the "Firm" to go forward. It began (if I had to pinpoint an occasion) with The Duke of Edinburgh's retirement and has gradually implemented changes .

Do we really think that the Queen would leave things all up in the air to create chaos when she passes and everything is up to Charles to figure out what to do now? The Queen is a pragmatist and likes all her ducks in a neat little row.
I tend to agree with this. However, I'm beginning to wonder, as are a lot of others, if this is spinning out of control and threatening the Queen's little row of ducks. I personally think this six week break that the Sussexes are taking is very probably a mutually agreed upon decision by both them and the powers that be and may not be the only step in the direction of putting that neat little row of ducks back in line.

Now that Eugenie is married, Beatrice is getting married, the Sussexes have made it clear that they're unhappy with their path, the Cambridges are in more intensive training for their future roles, etc. I think we might be seeing some structure reorganization beginning now.
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  #285  
Old 10-23-2019, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
I tend to agree with this. However, I'm beginning to wonder, as are a lot of others, if this is spinning out of control and threatening the Queen's little row of ducks. I personally think this six week break that the Sussexes are taking is very probably a mutually agreed upon decision by both them and the powers that be and may not be the only step in the direction of putting that neat little row of ducks back in line.
I think you've hit on something here. Perhaps Harry and Meghan found out that they've bit off more than they can chew (although well intended) and even Harry, with all his years in the royal family couldn't predict the intensiveness and stress that comes with being a full time working royal, a newlywed and a new parent.

Everyone else that works for the "Firm" did gradually work their way into establishing their roles and duties and managed family bit by bit. We've even seen the effects of what happened as far as family goes when the Queen came to the throne as a young mother. Harry's gone from being a single dude and the third wheel to his brother and his wife to, almost overnight it seems, full time working newlywed royal with a full time working royal newlywed wife and in a blink of an eye, they're parents. And that is without adding in all the other crap that has been thrown at them. I would have cracked a long time ago under those expectations and pressures.

The more I think about this, the more that it seems to fit in with the campaigns that are happening globally as far as mental health in the workplace. To operate a successful business as a well oiled machine, that company needs to recognize and support the needs of its "cogs" to keep it running smoothly. Perhaps this is what we're seeing with the six week breathing period and how the "Firm" is supportive of their members.
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  #286  
Old 10-23-2019, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
I tend to agree with this. However, I'm beginning to wonder, as are a lot of others, if this is spinning out of control and threatening the Queen's little row of ducks. I personally think this six week break that the Sussexes are taking is very probably a mutually agreed upon decision by both them and the powers that be and may not be the only step in the direction of putting that neat little row of ducks back in line.

Now that Eugenie is married, Beatrice is getting married, the Sussexes have made it clear that they're unhappy with their path, the Cambridges are in more intensive training for their future roles, etc. I think we might be seeing some structure reorganization beginning now.
These are very good points, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly what is happening. I'd even go further, and say that it might not be a bad idea for the Sussexes to take longer than six weeks to really regroup, relax, and get their heads around the massive changes that have taken place in their lives. The signs of unhappiness and strain they are showing (in their own words)is not a good thing for them or for the monarchy, and it isn't sustainable on a personal or an institutional level. When the mainstream newspapers begin to talk about damage to the monarchy, as several have, it's time to start chivvying those ducks back into line.
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  #287  
Old 10-23-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ista View Post
These are very good points, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly what is happening. I'd even go further, and say that it might not be a bad idea for the Sussexes to take longer than six weeks to really regroup, relax, and get their heads around the massive changes that have taken place in their lives. The signs of unhappiness and strain they are showing (in their own words)is not a good thing for them or for the monarchy, and it isn't sustainable on a personal or an institutional level. When the mainstream newspapers begin to talk about damage to the monarchy, as several have, it's time to start chivvying those ducks back into line.
I agree. I think we've started to see the signs of, for lack of a better term, acting out on the part of the Sussexes. They've told us in their own words that they're struggling and unhappy and sometimes when we're struggling and unhappy with the directions our lives are taking we tend to act out or lash out simply because we don't know what else to do and are unable to see the consequences of such actions with the necessary clarity. I'm hoping that this is what we're seeing from them and that a long break with lots of soul searching and maybe even decision making will set things back on a productive and helpful course for everyone concerned including them, the Firm as a whole, and everyone involved that is quickly becoming collateral damage including the Queen, the Cambridges, the Sussex staff, and more.
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  #288  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:03 PM
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...Another comment that stuck out to me is the claim that the Sussexes "have single-handedly modernized the monarchy" [emphasis mine]. The Sussexes are energetic and well-meaning but this also shows that there is a considerable amount of hubris in Camp Sussex and if this is representative of attitudes being displayed by the Sussexes and their team, regardless of how well-meaning they are, it's not hard to fathom that it will rub royals and courtiers the wrong way. I don't doubt that there are members and staffers within The Firm who are bigots, classisist and/or out-of-touch, but I don't think that applies to all of them and I wonder if some of the open-minded ones have been slighted by the team that thinks that modernization of the monarchy begins and ends with them.
There is a lot of hypocrisy in the statement by the aide that Meghan and Harry are modernizing the monarchy when they were so private about Archie's birth and godparents. That behavior hearkens back to the days of Queen Victoria.
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  #289  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:05 PM
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Didn't Harry say in some of the 2017 Diana TV interviews that at the age of 22 or so, he considered leaving the Royal Family As A Firm? (= using the Prince Philip definition of the BRF).
Princess Margaret didn't leave, Edward VIII did, and what I've read about him - I've been bingeing old Edward& Wallis biographies this summer, eerily - he was thinking about leaving The Kinging and Princing since the age of 19. He just used Wallis as a convenient coincidental added inducement.
Meghan sure is no Wallis, she is much more grounded and so is Harry.


--What do you think Charles thinks of this? There is always the link, the succession of the elder brothers, heirs to the throne - "the ghastly, inexorable dawning" -- that binds him to William. But how to relate to Harry?
I wonder what Prince Philip thinks of all this
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  #290  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:08 PM
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Unfortunately I think the days of the Fab four have gone, but there is no reason why they cannot all do their important work without standing on each others toes.
The story given to CNN re the modernising of the monarchy is very bad.

For Harry to speak about not playing the game the media want and then have somebody speak for him in this way to CNN is total hypocrisy but then this is not the first time he has shown this trait.

If H & M have nothing to do with this then I would suggest they need to get to the bottom of it and who allegedly spoke on their behalf. This is one media story they should be fighting. If a member of his staff spoke out of turn they should be sacked,

This was an insult thrown at the Queen his grandmother, never mind the other members of the family.

Anybody who witnessed the War of the Wales knows how much trouble the tv interview and this spokesperson have caused.

The Brexit debacle is keeping it at the second story with the media but this needs to be curtailed.
And it is very bad when they are getting more negative press that Prince Andrew.
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  #291  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:10 PM
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I also think the monarchy is in good hands. Charles will be a good king. William and Kate are doing a good job and they know where they are in the royal house. I have no doubt that William will be a good king.
Harry and Meghan have to stop controversy and think more about the institution they represent.
Yes, they need to realize that it is not about them, but about the institution as a whole.
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  #292  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
I tend to agree with this. However, I'm beginning to wonder, as are a lot of others, if this is spinning out of control and threatening the Queen's little row of ducks. I personally think this six week break that the Sussexes are taking is very probably a mutually agreed upon decision by both them and the powers that be and may not be the only step in the direction of putting that neat little row of ducks.
The Queen may like her ducks in a row but she’s shown before that she won’t necessarily take an active role in keeping the ducks in line. Most of what I’ve read indicates that she didn’t step in and start cracking the whip with Charles and Diana until a huge amount of personal and institutional damage had already been done. And now she’s decades older and may not have the energy required to really take on a leadership role in this mess.

Of course, the best case scenario is that she had her fill of The Royal Soap Opera the last time around and clearly communicates her expectations and the consequences of not meeting them to everyone involved.

I think HM likely loves her family dearly, but this is a woman who became Queen in her mid 20s, with two small children, after the unexpected death of her father, while Britain was still recovering from a horrific war, and has never once complained. I suspect she and The Duke want very much to support Harry and Meghan, but may be very concerned and possibly exasperated that the couple seems to be overwhelmed already.
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  #293  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I wonder what Prince Philip thinks of all this
Off hand, I'd imagine that the air around him would be pretty much filled with @#%$!@#$@ and more !#%!^#$. Philip is not one to mince words.
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  #294  
Old 10-23-2019, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
The Queen may like her ducks in a row but she’s shown before that she won’t necessarily take an active role in keeping the ducks in line. Most of what I’ve read indicates that she didn’t step in and start cracking the whip with Charles and Diana until a huge amount of personal and institutional damage had already been done. And now she’s decades older and may not have the energy required to really take on a leadership role in this mess.

Of course, the best case scenario is that she had her fill of The Royal Soap Opera the last time around and clearly communicates her expectations and the consequences of not meeting them to everyone involved.

I think HM likely loves her family dearly, but this is a woman who became Queen in her mid 20s, with two small children, after the unexpected death of her father, while Britain was still recovering from a horrific war, and has never once complained. I suspect she and The Duke want very much to support Harry and Meghan, but may be very concerned and possibly exasperated that the couple seems to be overwhelmed already.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. However, I do think that if my suspicions are correct and this upcoming break was a mutually agreed upon thing, then it's highly likely that the Queen recognized the mistake of waiting far too long the last time around and stepped in rather quickly this time. Of course I have no way of knowing if that's even remotely the case but as a long-time royal watcher I very much suspect it's so. Another poster wondered what Prince Philip makes of all this and I must admit I'd love to be a fly on the wall and hear his thoughts because I doubt very much that he's not making them known.
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  #295  
Old 10-23-2019, 06:15 PM
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I seriously doubt that a six week hiatus that has been officially announced happened without the involvement of the Queen and Charles. Harry and Meghan do not have the clout within the "Firm" to just announce that they're going away for "personal reasons". It wouldn't work in *any* business or corporation. Most people that would do that at their place of work would end up looking for a new place of work.

There's been a lot of thoughts that Harry and Meghan are "branching out on their own" "modernizing the monarchy themselves" and "doing things their way". That just doesn't happen unless they're the absolute top echelons of their place of business and call the shots. The Queen may have stood back and not interfered in personal matters in regards to Charles and Diana back then, but she *did* call the shots as to their public roles together. The Queen is very informed and knows *everything* that is happening within the "Firm" and always has been. We're seeing more and more though how Charles is being brought into the decision making at the top level. That's the transition starting to happen.

A lot of times, I think people fail to distinguish between the Queen's involvement in her "Firm" and her involvement in her family's lives. The two become indistinguishable to people especially when the "Boss" lives "above the shop" so to speak.
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  #296  
Old 10-23-2019, 07:16 PM
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I seriously doubt that a six week hiatus that has been officially announced happened without the involvement of the Queen and Charles. Harry and Meghan do not have the clout within the "Firm" to just announce that they're going away for "personal reasons".
I believe, they think , they have that clout and that's one of the problems they are having . Their self image doesn't fit with their reality . Maybe a result of the Diana's boys narrative , that saw them as one and the same and now William is clearly on a different path (to use that word) than Harry and doesn't really know how to be a supportive act to William after being his media twin for so long .
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  #297  
Old 10-23-2019, 07:32 PM
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I believe, they think , they have that clout and that's one of the problems they are having . Their self image doesn't fit with their reality . Maybe a result of the Diana's boys narrative , that saw them as one and the same and now William is clearly on a different path (to use that word) than Harry and doesn't really know how to be a supportive act to William after being his media twin for so long .
I believe that this is the *image* that is being opinionated on so much and so loud and so all over the place that people are starting to see this as reality. Its a painted picture far removed, probably, from the real image.

Harry is close to his grandmother and to his parents and his sibling. All of what is happening now in the monarchy probably has been planned a very long time ago and is gradually being implemented. Changes do have trials and errors and need to be fixed. Even with a computer, a memory overflow will cause a system overload. You decrease the inflow of information or get more memory to handle the problem.

Personally, I don't see any problem with any self image that Harry and Meghan have other than a very happy couple that are in love and have a newborn son and perhaps went about their public roles at too much of a breakneck speed and feeling a bit burned out. The "Firm" recognizes this and is taking steps to rectify a problem from getting worse.

This is a family that works together as a team and not individuals that are playing a cut throat game of stepping on people to get ahead but going through changes and adjustments. They can and will find a happy medium. Its the "fifth estate" that is harping on internal feuds, rumors, suppositions and whatnot and that is what the public is seeing most right now. The "Firm" itself doesn't discuss their internal affairs with the general public.
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  #298  
Old 10-23-2019, 07:42 PM
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As much as people want to see the brothers and their wives reunite and become the “Fab Four”, I don’t see that ever happening. The Queen’s Reign is winding down. Charles is already taking on more for the Queen’s duties and as everyone has pointed out, he is well prepared. William’s future is set when he becomes the Duke of Cornwall, Prince of Wales and then eventually King. His role will always be more important.

So, where does leave Harry? His role is to support the current Monarch, and once his father ascends the throne as King and William snd Kate step:into their roles as The Prince and Princess of Wales, Duke & Duchess of Cornwall, etc.., Harry and Meghan will be required to take on more responsibilities in supportive roles until William’s children are of age.

It’s all very well and good that Harry and Meghan seem to want to create their own “Kingdom in a Bubble” where just the their little family rules their utopia and they create their own policies and rules, but that isn’t the way it’s going to be. They serve at the pleasure of the Monarch and if it doesn’t please the Monarch then it won’t happen.

William and Harry will have to come together under Charles’ reign and Harry will have to eventually answer to William as the reigning monarch. I hope they figure it out by then.
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  #299  
Old 10-23-2019, 08:36 PM
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I firmly believe that the future of the British Monarchy can only be bright and modern, if there’s any effort to unite the family. These separate paths the family are taking will only bring about a sense of division and chaos — which is happening now.

The reunion of the Cambridge’s and Sussexes on their mental health campaign was a success. They need to build on that success and create some harmony within the working “Firm” by publicly working together more often rather than acting like they don’t even know each other and are from two separate planets. Harness the power of “The Royal Fab Four.” Theres tons of power in that — trust me on this, my friends.

They can turn all of this around.
I'm sorry, but the Fab Four were never really a thing. It was a fantasy of the media and Diana & her boys fans.

And now that Charles is taking on more of the Queen's activities and William is taking on some of his father's activities, William and Harry's paths were already diverging. The Cambridges and Sussexes might be able to do a project together once in a while, but nothing more. William is moving towards his role as Duke of Cornwall and probable Prince of Wales--Harry is Anne, Andrew and Edward. I think the moving of the Sussexes office to BP is a big sign of the reality of the situation by senior members of the BRF.

It is not reasonable or practical to combine the Sussexes and Cambridges working lives--they truly have different roles and that is becoming more obvious as time moves on.
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  #300  
Old 10-24-2019, 11:21 AM
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So just to add another twist to this whole mess...I won't link the articles here but apparently a picture of Harry and Meghan has been removed from a prominent place in the Queen's receiving room. Now, before anyone goes on the warpath and accuses me of not knowing how things work, we all know that the Queen often rotates photographs of her family so I certainly wouldn't read much into the fact that a photograph has been moved. However, I will say that the Queen has been at this game for a very, very long time and I'm 100% positive that with everything happening and all of the media coverage she absolutely knew that the absence of that photograph would be remarked upon, particularly when the other photographs on that table remained the same.

I would caution that we shouldn't read much, if anything, into this but fair is fair and if we can all comment on the fact that she's been positioning Andrew beside her in the car on the way to church as show of support, I think it's fair to mention that this seems like a very quiet but still knowledgeable way to make a statement should she choose to do so.

I'm bracing myself for the attack and onslaught that I know is coming because well, let's face it, we all know it's coming. But I do think it's a rather interesting sidenote in the current climate of things and given that the Queen's ability to make subtle statements and understand the power of small gestures should not be underestimated.

I think it's highly likely that the next few months should prove to be a very interesting, and possibly highly frustrating, time for us royal watchers.
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