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  #141  
Old 12-06-2011, 08:04 PM
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I wouldn't be too sure that NGalitzine is "spot on". Where is your proof? Have you seen marriage certificates or divorce papers with your own eyes, yes?
I completely agree Black Tulip! One can not just claim she is illegitimate because of a claim in a biography against which she didn't take any legal action.
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  #142  
Old 12-06-2011, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
A rather dubious claim given she is the product of a bigamous marriage. I suspect the Ogilvy and Spencer families might raise an eyebrow at that one.
Does that also mean that Prince Harry is a son James Hewitt just because it was speculated like that in the press and Prince Charles made no legal action???

I suspect the Windsor and Spencer families might raise an eyebrow at that one.
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  #143  
Old 12-06-2011, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
I would just say here however that the use of her 'Baroness' title causes Austrian friends of mine to fall about laughing.
Don't need to ask your Austrian friends because she is not Austrian Baroness,as Barons von Reibnitz were from Silesia...
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  #144  
Old 12-06-2011, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Princess Michaels lineage has a separate thread anyway.
I was not discussing her lineage,but just mentioned it as a reason she is not liked,as she said the fact that she has most noble/royal blood since Prince Philipp...
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  #145  
Old 12-06-2011, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
Technically, she was never entitled to use it.
Until legally proven and announced otherwise(and that will never happen),she is a Baroness...
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  #146  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
^^^^^
Her parents bigamous marriage is discussed in the Princess Michael lineage thread. It is written about in her biographies and she has not taken legal action against the authors.
Hmm... not sure what kind of proof this is. As far as I know, Princess Michael has never taken legal action against any author or journalist and I would dare to assume that there has been quite a bit of rubbish written about her so far. I think Marc23's example with Prince Harry and James Hewitt is a good one in this case.

What makes me doubt the story (and I always stay to be critical on both sides): a woman married to a member of the BRF, claiming she has a title where she has no title and adding that she isn't exactly the darling of the British press - wouldn't that have made headlines already long ago? I think a "fake" Baroness would probably be an even bigger story than the "SS father" as it would be a pure lie from her personally?

I know Wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source either, but to quote from the article about Gunther von Reibnitz:

Quote:
Reibnitz married firstly Margherita Schoen (1893–1962), daughter of Gustav Schoen and Elisabeth Wentzel, and their daughter Margarita was born at Krzanowitz on 18 January 1924.[7] He and his wife were divorced at Breslau on 15 April 1931.[8]
And to be fair, here's what Peter Lane, the author of one of the two biographies about Princess Michael, wrote about the issue:

Quote:
[...] The Countess was delighted to have back the man she loved, the father of her two young children. [...] It is impossible to imagine how she felt when he came to tell her that, when he 'married' her in 1941, he was already a married man and the father of a teenage daughter. He claimed that the first marriage had been a failure from the start, that he had chosen to 'forget' about it when snatching a few weeks happiness before what he had seen as a certain death on the Russian front.


Now the Countess was faced not only with the everyday problems of life in war-torn Europe. As a devout Catholic she had also to consider what she was to do with her 'marriage'. She went to consult a Cardinal. His decision was sympathetic but firm. Since she had married von Reibnitz in good faith, the children were legitimate in the eyes of the Church. However, because of the existing marriage, the Countess could no longer live with her 'husband'. [...]
A bit puzzling indeed and rather contradictory these two quotes seem at first sight. I wish Lane had gone into detail, because it is, IMO, possible that von Reibnitz has been divorced from his first wife, legally, but - as you might know - the Catholic church doesn't recognize divorce. From the Catholic church's point of view there are no divorces, if you are legally divorced that doesn't matter to the church and that's why you can't marry twice in a Catholic church (they will tell you: that's not possible because you are already married, this would mean bigamy ). According to Catholic church law only widowed people are allowed to marry again. Maybe that's what it's all about here and this would mean that Marie-Christine and her brother Friedrich are definitely not illegitimate in the eyes of the law - in case von Reibnitz and Countess Szapary also had a civil wedding (and I would think so) - but probably in the eyes of the Catholic church and this problem, if Peter Lane's story above is to be believed, has been solved as well.

I would also agree with BlackTulip: if someone here has seen divorce papers etc. or has any other proof that Marie-Christine von Reibnitz is illegitimate, go ahead. I would certainly be interested in that, but it seems such proof is not available and so it remains hearsay and gossip?

Kit, thanks for the detailed information about the Sternkreuzorden - you seem very knowledgable about it and it has been interesting to read!
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  #147  
Old 12-07-2011, 08:37 AM
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@Dierna23 you're welcome !

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Maybe that's what it's all about here and this would mean that Marie-Christine and her brother Friedrich are definitely not illegitimate in the eyes of the law - in case von Reibnitz and Countess Szapary also had a civil wedding (and I would think so) - but probably in the eyes of the Catholic church and this problem, if Peter Lane's story above is to be believed, has been solved.
I would like to add the Catholic Church regonizes her and her brother as being legitimate otherwise she coudn't be a member of the Order who is a catholic Order and was confirmed then by Pope Clement V in 1668 and is placed until today (!) under the spiritual management by the Arch-Bishop of Vienna.

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Don't need to ask your Austrian friends because she is not Austrian Baroness,as Barons von Reibnitz were from Silesia...
Silesia was for a long time a part of Austria (what's more there was a part of Silesia which was called Austrian-Silesia and was part of the Austrian Empire until 1918 !!!) and therefore several persons till today still claim themselves Austrian. Princess Michael's family including herself most certainly does! She was born in Karlsbad which was a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy until 1918 and where the family estates of her grandmother were situated.
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  #148  
Old 12-07-2011, 10:16 AM
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[QUOTE=Kit;1344147]I would like to add the Catholic Church regonizes her and her brother as being legitimate otherwise she coudn't be a member of the Order who is a catholic Order and was confirmed then by Pope Clement V in 1668 and is placed until today (!) under the spiritual management by the Arch-Bishop of Vienna. [QUOTE]



Very interesting discussion so far, thank you all for contributing! To be honest, since the bigamous issue was raised at the other thread a few months back, I didn't read anything outside the royal forums about it. I had almost forgotten about it... I do believe though that the above argument is the best proof, Kit has been crystal clear with her latest posts in general. Maybe we should drop the issue, what do you all say?
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  #149  
Old 12-07-2011, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Kit View Post
I am sorry but now I have to put my 2 cents in being Austrian. Princess Michael is a member of the old Austrian "Sternkreuzorden" or in English "Order of the Starry Cross". Given the fact that you are not from Austria you probably don't know the rules for being given a membership in this order. It was the highest order for noble females first in the Holy Roman Empire later in the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy which means you had and you still have to prove your lineage back to your great-grandparents from your father's and your mother's side and even when being married from your husband's great-grandparents. Only a handful of selected females are today member's of the order and Princess Michael most definitely IS! The Grand Mistresses were during the monarchy always the Empresses or as it was the case after Empress Elizabeth's death the highest Archduchess. The current wife of the head of the Habsburg family Archduchess Francesca was NOT allowed to be a member of the order cause her lineage doesn't fulfill the required 16 noble ancestors. Remember Francesca's father was also a Baron, although he inherited the title from his grandfather. (Francesca's sister-in-law Archduchess Gabriele is now the Grand Mistresses after the death of her mother )
Princess Michael's lineage fulfills these requirements easily, what's more her lineage was heavily examined before she was accepted in the ORDER. So at least the Austrian - Hungarian and German aristocracy doesn't have a problem with Princess Michael and her parent's marriage. And believe me if I tell you that "heavily examined" means in fact "heavily examined" by genealogists. So even if some people here in Austria laugh about her title and doubt the legitimacy of her birth, the people that really count - the Austrian and German aristocracy certainly don't. You can read a little bit about the order in the English version of Wikipedia, although the German version is much more specific about the history and importance of the order including all his Grand Mistresses till today.
Thanks for the information!
I heard about such European orders or associations, but always doubted their existence. It sounded too unbelievable. It is amazing that Princess Michael has met the requirements to be the member of the Order of the Starry Cross.
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  #150  
Old 12-07-2011, 12:15 PM
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ngalitzine and diarist this is serious. please will you explain the reasons and show proof for stating illegitimacy of princess michael of kent as fact. i always appreciated her because she is not a commoner and it is a pity that british people do not appreciate her as they should. please answer.
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  #151  
Old 12-07-2011, 01:00 PM
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Well if the Imperial house of Habsburg doesn't have a problem with Princess Michael and her descendance then the british pulic shouldn't have either. She was friends with the late AD Otto and his wife who was Grand Mistress of the order. She was at Otto's funeral wearing the order and she was friends with the late Empress Zita of Austria who was also Grand Mistress. And believe me these lovely ladies from the Order are ready to "kill" anyone who has the audacity to request a membership while not being able to fulfill the required 16 noble ancestors ;-) They are still very touchy about these things given the fact that the members of the Order were the so-called "appartementmäßigen damen" which can be translated with "the ladies who are allowed to enter the apartments of the Empress which was the biggest privilege for ladies within the monarchy.
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  #152  
Old 12-07-2011, 03:23 PM
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Well if the Imperial house of Habsburg doesn't have a problem with Princess Michael and her descendance then the british pulic shouldn't have either. She was friends with the late AD Otto and his wife who was Grand Mistress of the order. She was at Otto's funeral wearing the order and she was friends with the late Empress Zita of Austria who was also Grand Mistress. And believe me these lovely ladies from the Order are ready to "kill" anyone who has the audacity to request a membership while not being able to fulfill the required 16 noble ancestors ;-) They are still very touchy about these things given the fact that the members of the Order were the so-called "appartementmäßigen damen" which can be translated with "the ladies who are allowed to enter the apartments of the Empress which was the biggest privilege for ladies within the monarchy.
I can only second Kit in this - if there was at least some reason to question the legitimacy of Princess Michael, she would never have been awarded this order!
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  #153  
Old 12-07-2011, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dierna23 View Post

I know Wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source
Official site of Britsih monarchy also says she is,or rather was a Baroness,prior to her marriage:

The Royal Family > TRH Prince and Princess Michael of Kent > Marriage and family
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  #154  
Old 12-08-2011, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kit View Post
Well if the Imperial house of Habsburg doesn't have a problem with Princess Michael and her descendance then the british pulic shouldn't have either. She was friends with the late AD Otto and his wife who was Grand Mistress of the order. She was at Otto's funeral wearing the order and she was friends with the late Empress Zita of Austria who was also Grand Mistress. And believe me these lovely ladies from the Order are ready to "kill" anyone who has the audacity to request a membership while not being able to fulfill the required 16 noble ancestors ;-) They are still very touchy about these things given the fact that the members of the Order were the so-called "appartementmäßigen damen" which can be translated with "the ladies who are allowed to enter the apartments of the Empress which was the biggest privilege for ladies within the monarchy.
thank you for information kit. very informative kit and it is logical. but there is something i do not understand now. where are the two persons who told the opposite now? i repeat : this is serious. two persons telling us with very much self confidence that a princess has lied about her background and they have told she is illegitimate. they joked about it as if it was clear like crystals. i asked them to defend the serious things they said. no answer. why? one of them i saw online here yesterday, posting other things. how can such people be taken serious now? who will believe them? and why not coming back and say something? maybe they know more than we know. then i say please tell us your truth. but this is behaving of cowards.
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  #155  
Old 12-08-2011, 11:45 PM
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Not only she is a descendant of Diane de Poitiers, Henri II's mistress, but she is also of Henri II's wife Catherine...
What is more interesting is that Diane de Poitiers and Catherine de Medici were second cousins as Diane's grandmother Jeanne de la Tour d'Auvergne was sister of Catherine's grandfather Jean I de La Tour, Count of Auvergne
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  #156  
Old 12-22-2011, 11:54 AM
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Sure it can be perceived as "only hearsay" since we were not there. But I happened to know a great Hungarian lady in London (unfortunately she had passed away a few years ago) who had personally known Countess Szapary, a fellow Hungarian. She had told me that the Countess was not shy to use swear words or other colorful language. Besides, calling someone a "peasant" is a very common derogatory expression in Hungarian for someone without class, manner or education. Or just for the sake of it, if you want to degrade someone. Actually, this is very mild compare to other expressions. One of the most common swearings in Hungarian is "horse's prick up your ass", so calling someone a peasant is not that outrageous in Hungarian.
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Old 12-22-2011, 11:13 PM
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Sure it can be perceived as "only hearsay" since we were not there. But I happened to know a great Hungarian lady in London (unfortunately she had passed away a few years ago) who had personally known Countess Szapary, a fellow Hungarian. She had told me that the Countess was not shy to use swear words or other colorful language. Besides, calling someone a "peasant" is a very common derogatory expression in Hungarian for someone without class, manner or education. Or just for the sake of it, if you want to degrade someone. Actually, this is very mild compare to other expressions. One of the most common swearings in Hungarian is "horse's prick up your ass", so calling someone a peasant is not that outrageous in Hungarian.
You haven't quoted anything so I don't know to whom are you replying and didn't understand this thing with swearing...who sweared to whom,why,when etc?Thnx
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  #158  
Old 12-23-2011, 07:04 AM
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Princess Michael's brother Fred is a low-key chap - a retired civil servant in suburban Australia, he does a lot of charity work for "riding for the disabled". He had a daughter out of wedlock in Australia in about 1978 (with a work colleague who shared his love of horses), and his daughter is a professional photographer. Von Reibnitz is married to a fellow retired civil servant. The story around Sydney was that Princess Michael's mother referred to the work colleague as "just a peasant" at the time.
Sorry, this is the missing quote I was replying to.
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  #159  
Old 12-23-2011, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by NoorMeansLight View Post
I don't know if MC's mother had ever referred to that woman as 'just a peasant' - that's only hearsay after all , right? - what I know is that Fred's family had serious reasons not to approve that work colleague as a possible bride. I'd consider such a person as inappropriate too, if a member of my own family was involved in such an affair. I don't wish to elaborate, just want to make clear that any possible negative reaction in that case was totally understandable and even justifiable IMO.
And this...
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Old 12-24-2011, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Arbanville View Post
Sure it can be perceived as "only hearsay" since we were not there. But I happened to know a great Hungarian lady in London (unfortunately she had passed away a few years ago) who had personally known Countess Szapary, a fellow Hungarian. She had told me that the Countess was not shy to use swear words or other colorful language. Besides, calling someone a "peasant" is a very common derogatory expression in Hungarian for someone without class, manner or education. Or just for the sake of it, if you want to degrade someone. Actually, this is very mild compare to other expressions. One of the most common swearings in Hungarian is "horse's prick up your ass", so calling someone a peasant is not that outrageous in Hungarian.
I must admit that where I've been raised (in Germany near the French border where we speak a funny dialect that is quite influenced by French), "peasant" is a common expression for some people, without manners especially, too. During my childhood I've heard many elder people using it quite loosely. I think in English "peasant" might be a bigger insult than in some other languages/cultures.

Thanks for the info, D'Arbanville! Is there any other interesting info the Hungarian lady shared with you about Countess Szapary?
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