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  #21  
Old 12-21-2009, 03:02 PM
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Well, in a period when Royals were starting to marry commoners, even a Baroness could be an appropriate match for a Prince, above all if the Prince is a "minor royal" like Prince Michael is.
The problem of the religion is a different point, you're right; but again, being a "minor royal" may have helped Prince Michael, since he was quite far in the Line of Succession and his marriage to a Catholic didn't cause big problems.

Of course, if the Prince of Wales was to marry a Catholic baroness surely the opposition would have been stronger, and I'm pretty sure that the Queen would not have allowed the marriage; but this is just my opinion.
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  #22  
Old 12-21-2009, 03:09 PM
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Well,at some point some of you are right...mediatized families are in general terms ranked below royals,but as far as the marriage prospects are concerned they were recognized as equals...

Sophie Chotek case is not the right one because Chotek family was never a ruling family like Windisch-Graetz family was,so Chotek family,although of very high nobility doesn't belong to mediatized(equal) list of families...

Marie-Christine indeed is the most blue blooded person to marry into the royal family in last 50 years in terms of her royalty "equal" ancestors,unlike Sarah Ferguson,Diana whose "equal" ancestors produced illegitimate issue and only through them are they descended from them etc...

She is noble from her fathers side also although her mothers ancestry is more illustrious one...Reibnitz family was a noble one from the beginning of 14th century and were made Barons in 1724.

Wife of Sir is styled Lady,not Dame!
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  #23  
Old 12-21-2009, 03:25 PM
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Mafan,
You can not deny that the Kent clan is far more noble than the current Windsor family. Emphasising Prince Michael's status as a minor royal does not change the fact that Baroness von Reibnitz was a more apporpriate choice than all daughters-in-law in the reigning clan or the current official/unofficial girlfriends of Prince Charles' sons.
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  #24  
Old 12-21-2009, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Sophie Chotek case is not the right one because Chotek family was never a ruling family like Windisch-Graetz family was,so Chotek family,although of very high nobility doesn't belong to mediatized(equal) list of families...
Sophie Chotek's case is the right one, if taken in the right context: I was replying to and denying a post that stated that Austrian nobles held the same rank of all the European Royals, and Sophie Chotek's case proves my point.

Only the mediatized families' members can marry equally to a member of a Royal Family; Windisch-Graetz family is a mediatized one, Chotek, Reibnitz and Szapary are not and therefore their members can't contract an equal marriage to a member of an european Royal House.

Another different matter is if the Head of an European Royal House allows a member of his family to marry a noble from a not mediatized family or a commoner (for example, Archduke Karl and Baroness Francesca von Thyssen-Bornemizsa, not an equal marriage under the profile we're talking about, but allowed by the Head of the Imperial Family and therefore dynastically valid).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
Mafan,
You can not deny that the Kent clan is far more noble than the current Windsor family. Emphasising Prince Michael's status as a minor royal does not change the fact that Baroness von Reibnitz was a more apporpriate choice than all daughters-in-law in the reigning clan or the current official/unofficial girlfriends of Prince Charles' sons.
I fear I've bad explained my point: I don't deny what you're saying, at all, I agree with you; I only think that his position of minor royal - not due to his ancestry, but due to his minor royal tasks and distant position in the Line of Succession - may have helped the Queen to allow his marriage.
If William asked her permission to marry a Catholic, I think she would refuse it because he is the second in the LoS (and the future King and Head of the Anglican Church).
I hope to have explained better.
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  #25  
Old 12-21-2009, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
Sophie Chotek's case is the right one, if taken in the right context: I was replying to and denying a post that stated that Austrian nobles held the same rank of all the European Royals, and Sophie Chotek's case proves my point.

Only the mediatized families' members can marry equally to a member of a Royal Family; Windisch-Graetz family is a mediatized one, Chotek, Reibnitz and Szapary are not and therefore their members can't contract an equal marriage to a member of an european Royal House.

Another different matter is if the Head of an European Royal House allows a member of his family to marry a noble from a not mediatized family or a commoner (for example, Archduke Karl and Baroness Francesca von Thyssen-Bornemizsa, not an equal marriage under the profile we're talking about, but allowed by the Head of the Imperial Family and therefore dynastically valid).

I think you made my statements out of context...If you read my posts I said that she indeed entered with most "equal" blood into the family in last 50 years and has descended from most "equal" families,not that she is married equally...

Those families are Windisch-Graetz,Schwarzenberg,Arenberg,Oettingen-Oettingen,Savoy,Auersperg,Lobkowicz,Colloredo-Mansfeld and so on...

Baroness Francesca Anna Dolores von Thyssen-Bornemizsa de Kaszon et Imperfalva is a good example of this...although she is born noble and even herself descended from Habsburgs(via her mother) she could not be considered equal by birth...
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:29 PM
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Ok, I understand your point; btw, Savoy Family is not a mediatized one, since it's a Royal House, ruling on the Kingdom of Sardinia and later on the Kingdom of Italy.

I know it's off topic, but in which way is Archduchess Francesca's mother a descendant from Habsburgs?
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  #27  
Old 12-21-2009, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
I fear I've bad explained my point: I don't deny what you're saying, at all, I agree with you; I only think that his position of minor royal - not due to his ancestry, but due to his minor royal tasks and distant position in the Line of Succession - may have helped the Queen to allow his marriage.
If William asked her permission to marry a Catholic, I think she would refuse it because he is the second in the LoS (and the future King and Head of the Anglican Church).
I hope to have explained better.
If her family were not mediatized then in her own country she would not have been able to marry into Prince Michaels family, is that right. His family were royal while hers wasn't.

Al_bina if I understand this right, the Kent family can't be more royal because they are only comparable with the Queen and Prince Philip's parents both of which were royal. Only one of their children has married and that is who could be compared to Prince Charles and his brothers and sisters and their spouses and of course his wife is an actress. So I don't see how they could be more royal, which they couldn't be anyway because Britain doesn't follow that sort of system.
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  #28  
Old 12-21-2009, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Wisteria View Post
Sir Bruce Rodda Williams is not a noble, he is a Knight of the British Empire and his wife is not Lady Roma, she is Lady Rodda-Williams because of her marriage, it is a courtesy title and does not signify nobility. I believe that although we have the custom to call wives of Knights "Lady" the correct term is Dame, but someone else will know more about that I am sure.
By the way Vicky J, if we donīt ask questions we can never learn.
Sarah Ferguson is of royal descent on both sides of her family and not just one side as Christine of Kent is, l so I believe it is a bit of an exaggeration to say she is the most blue blooded person to marry into the royal family for umpteen years..

The wife of a Knight is styled 'Lady' to his 'Sir' but a woman who is knighted in her own right is a 'Dame' and her husband has no matching style.

So Dame Nellie Melba, Dame Joan Sutherland were both 'knighted' in their own right but Lady Jessie Bradman is so styled because she was the wife of Sir Donald Bradman who was the one who was knighted.

Sorry for using Australian examples but off the top of my head I couldn't think of any British ones where I knew the wife's name having forgotten the name of Sir Ian Botham's wife.
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  #29  
Old 12-21-2009, 05:18 PM
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Thanks IluvB very well explained. I found this little bit in Wiki.

"Knights Grand Cross and Knights Commander prefix "Sir", and Dames Grand Cross and Dames Commander prefix "Dame", to their forenames. Wives of Knights may prefix "Lady" to their surnames, but no equivalent privilege exists for husbands of Dames.

I think I know where I had my mix up. They donīt have the prefix to their First names but they have Lady "surname of husband".
On reading that the husbands donīt have any title I remember Dame Margaret
Thatcherīs husband Dennis, saying what I thought at the time was very amusing,"I am the love without name". LOL.

But not to get off the subject, Christine of Kentīs brother is not married to a noblewoman.
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  #30  
Old 12-21-2009, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
Ok, I understand your point; btw, Savoy Family is not a mediatized one, since it's a Royal House, ruling on the Kingdom of Sardinia and later on the Kingdom of Italy.

I know it's off topic, but in which way is Archduchess Francesca's mother a descendant from Habsburgs?
Again,you don't read my post...I said from "equal" families,not just meditized...


I know it's off topic but Francesca descended from Holy Roman Emperor Rudolf I Habsburg as well as some others..for example Kings of England,Scotland,France,Aragon as well as Komnenos,Angelos Emperors of Byzantium etc. even from Friedrich I Barbarossa...you can check her ancestry on genealogics.org
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  #31  
Old 12-21-2009, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Wisteria View Post
Thanks IluvB very well explained. I found this little bit in Wiki.

"Knights Grand Cross and Knights Commander prefix "Sir", and Dames Grand Cross and Dames Commander prefix "Dame", to their forenames. Wives of Knights may prefix "Lady" to their surnames, but no equivalent privilege exists for husbands of Dames.

I think I know where I had my mix up. They donīt have the prefix to their First names but they have Lady "surname of husband".
On reading that the husbands donīt have any title I remember Dame Margaret
Thatcherīs husband Dennis, saying what I thought at the time was very amusing,"I am the love without name". LOL.

But not to get off the subject, Christine of Kentīs brother is not married to a noblewoman.
If ones father is styled Sir Something that means that he is not noble?
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  #32  
Old 12-22-2009, 04:11 AM
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A very simple answer to a very simple question. No, he is not noble.
There are Baronets in England who are the b ottom level of nobility this is a hereditary title, but someone who has been given an honorary KBE is not a noble and most definitely his family isnīt.
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  #33  
Old 12-22-2009, 07:14 AM
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Ok,thanks...wanted to know that..didn't know how this title thing "works" in Britain...
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  #34  
Old 12-22-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
Reibnitz family was a noble one from the beginning of 14th century and were made Barons in 1724.
Are the roots of the Reibnitz-family in Bohemia or Silesia? I know that's rather tricky because parts of Silesia once belonged to Bohemia/Austria. I'm always a bit confused about these things and asked myself if Baron Günther Hubertus von Reibnitz was a "German" then or an "Austrian"?
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  #35  
Old 12-22-2009, 04:33 PM
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The roots of Reibnitz family are in North Germany near Mecklenburg,but the estates of the Baron were in that region(Silesia and Bohemia)...don't know about other members of that family!
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:48 PM
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Interesting! I didn't know that. Thank you, Marc23.
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  #37  
Old 12-22-2009, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
If ones father is styled Sir Something that means that he is not noble?


There are five levels of nobility in Britain - Duke, Marquis, Earl, Viscount and Baron. These titles are heriditary.

A Baronet is called Sir but is not a noble. His title is heritidary.

A Knight is called Sir but again is not a noble. His title is not heritidary.

However, before people start to jump down my throat, most new titles created in the last 20 years or more, except for those given to royals, have been life peerages or life titles so new ones are not heriditary e.g. the Spencer title will pass down to the Earl's eldest son as that title is an old title but a title created in more recent times is for the recipient only and not for his/her children.
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  #38  
Old 12-22-2009, 06:41 PM
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No problem...

Her cousin Baron Karl Gustav von Reibnitz was a Prime-Minister of Mecklenburg-Strelitz state after WW I...her two cousins Barons Georg and Rudolf were also Generals in German Army during German Empire...

Their "Stamm schloss" is called Burg Reibnitz...it dates from 14th century and unfortunately looks like this today:

http://zamki.net.pl/zamki/rybnica/rybnica03.jpg
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  #39  
Old 12-23-2009, 11:18 AM
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Coat of Arms of von Reibnitz family:

http://www.artroots.com/brigitte/roy...ibnitzarms.jpg

Here is a heraldic explanation and a brief history of von Reibnitz family and its roots:

"The family's escutcheon - two red bars set in silver - has remained the same since very ancient times. The oldest known presentation of the escutcheon is found on a deed of the Kamenz convent, from the year 1352, now in the Breslau Records Office. It was the seal of the knight Cunad (Conrad) de Ribenicz.
The escutcheon appears next, without crest, on the sarcophagus of Duke Bolko II of Schweidnitz, who died the in the year 1368 and was buried in the convent of Grüssau. It was an honor bestowed only on the first among a prince's retainers, but it is not known for which Reibnitz the escutcheon was presented.
In the 15th century and later the escutcheon appears with crest, consisting of two buffalo horns, of which the front one is red, the rear one silver.

The coat of arms has remained so to the present day, and only the line of Barons, with its elevation in 1724, experienced a change in its coat of arms in that the baronial coronet has been set on the escutcheon, on which two helmets rest. The front uncrowned helmet bears the buffalo horns of the family coat of arms, while the rear crowned helmet bears, in front, a silver eagle's wing with green leaf, and in the rear a red buffalo horn.
In relation to both the brothers Johann Leopold v. Reibnitz and Christoph Friedrich, who were made barons in 1724, Professor Pauli writes in his An Account of the v. Reibnitz Family: The brothers made Barons von Reibnitz wanted no change in their coat of arms, other than that each added to his crest a part of the crest of his mother, the elder the eagle's wing of the Debschütz crest and the younger the horn of the Tschirnhaus crest.”
Finally it is worth mentioning that, according to family tradition, the word "lieb" (beloved) was written between the bars on the coat of arms.
After family tradition, the forebear of the family was said to have used his body to cover his prince in a battle, and thereby to have received two sword wounds. As thanks the prince knighted him and granted him a coat of arms with two red bars and the word "lieb" between them.

This tradition has not been confirmed by historical research, as the word "lieb" is not found on any of the authenticated coats of arms of the family.
Only once was this found on an escutcheon, that of Diprand Reybnicz of the House of Kaubitz , who died on 21 August 1449."

Forgot to add that this knight in question is Konrad von Rybenicz auf Kaubitz whose father,also Konrad von Rybenicz was the first known member of the family born in 1270...

Through her father Günther-Hubertus and von Reibnitz family Marie-Christine is descendant of Burggrafen von Dohna who were one of the most ancient families in German nobility and ancestors of almost all reigning families today...

So,Marie-Christine is related to the Queen Elizabeth II and her husband Prince Michael through her father also...
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  #40  
Old 12-23-2009, 05:27 PM
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Marc,
It has been most kind of you to provide detailed information on the von Reibnitz family.
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