The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #21  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:33 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Norfolk, United States
Posts: 2,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Marie Christine could also have selected and worn the brooch in *honor* of Meghan's biracial heritage. To me this seems so much more likely than a person deliberately purchasing/or having a brooch just for the prime purpose of offending people let alone a future family member at the Queen's luncheon.

We all wear things we like that represent ourselves sometimes. Election time you wear a button supporting your candidate. Christmas time you wear your best holiday ugly sweater or a Christmas tree brooch. Royals on tour wear things that reflect the country they're visiting.

People will make out of it what they wish to though. Its the way of the world.
I highly doubt Princess Michael’s thoughts on this really matter to Meghan and I’m not even on either side of whether she did on purpose to offend or if it’s to honor or simply a faux pas. However, the fact that this type of symbol has been controversial in terms of what it represents to people of color in general just makes this a bad decision for a member of royal family to wear so openly.
__________________

  #22  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:38 PM
cepe's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqui24 View Post
I highly doubt Princess Michael’s thoughts on this really matter to Meghan and I’m not even on either side of whether she did on purpose to offend or if it’s to honor or simply a faux pas. However, the fact that this type of symbol has been controversial in terms of what it represents to people of color in general just makes this a bad decision for a member of royal family to wear so openly.
Before this convo started, I had no idea that this would be offensive to people of colour. In my family, the Christmas nativity set had Balthazar as a Moor - so did my local church. The idea that many races and different social positions is key in the Nativity scenes.

At no time in the UK have I been told that it is offensive.

I accept all that you say.
__________________

__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
  #23  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:38 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,885
Oh dear I don’t know anything about the brooch but if there was the slightest chance it could appear to be racist then she shouldn’t have worn it.
  #24  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:44 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 11,143
My apologies also for my statements here. I had no clue even what a Moor brooch was, how it was perceived or anything about them whatsoever.

The more I read, the more I think Princess Michael should have put more thought into what she was wearing when she got dressed. We can't know what she was thinking but obviously, she's made a mistake. Balthazar may have been a wise Moorish magi but Marie Christine didn't think too wisely.
__________________
I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
  #25  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:54 PM
Zaira's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Washington, United States
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Before this convo started, I had no idea that this would be offensive to people of colour. In my family, the Christmas nativity set had Balthazar as a Moor - so did my local church. The idea that many races and different social positions is key in the Nativity scenes.

At no time in the UK have I been told that it is offensive.

I accept all that you say.
I think for me its more the design which is very similar to figurines, jewelry and styles that were once in vogue that had very racist social understandings to them. Whether it was intentional or not (maybe she just likes St Balthazar), as someone of black descent myself my first thought was to kinda recoil when I saw it.

Having a nativity scene that depicts the wise man as a POC or Moor is different than this.
  #26  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:00 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 11,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaira View Post
Having a nativity scene that depicts the wise man as a POC or Moor is different than this.
The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. Why wear just one wise man when there were three if it was meant to reflect the Christmas season?
__________________
I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
  #27  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:11 PM
cepe's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaira View Post
I think for me its more the design which is very similar to figurines, jewelry and styles that were once in vogue that had very racist social understandings to them. Whether it was intentional or not (maybe she just likes St Balthazar), as someone of black descent myself my first thought was to kinda recoil when I saw it.

Having a nativity scene that depicts the wise man as a POC or Moor is different than this.
Thank you - this makes sense. I remember in the 80s (in the UK) there were brooches made of head/shoulders of different people - I especially remember Mardi Gras masked figures. This reminds me of that style and that era. It certainly isn't a modern piece. Butler and Wilson made them.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
  #28  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:16 PM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 13,984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaira View Post
Are you kidding me? The racist origins of these kinds of pieces is extremely well known. There is nothing "honoring" about them. I am going to go out an say it, whether or not this was intentional, it was certainly ignorant and still offensive. This is not something you wear to honor a POC of black ancestry.

I can already tell this is a thread I will need to bow out of.
I agree, but guess who will have the last laugh on the 19th of May, 2018? All is well!
__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
  #29  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:22 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Lewisville, United States
Posts: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Before this convo started, I had no idea that this would be offensive to people of colour. In my family, the Christmas nativity set had Balthazar as a Moor - so did my local church. The idea that many races and different social positions is key in the Nativity scenes.

At no time in the UK have I been told that it is offensive.

I accept all that you say.
Most African-Americans would read the brooch along the same lines as a traditional lawn jockey. Stating that it's meant to represent one of the Magi earns a serious side-eye.

I have no idea why the woman would wear something like that, since it seems to me that on such occasions you would want to seem as welcoming as possible, and not introduce even a whiff of prejudice.
  #30  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:22 PM
ACO ACO is offline
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 1,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
My apologies also for my statements here. I had no clue even what a Moor brooch was, how it was perceived or anything about them whatsoever.

The more I read, the more I think Princess Michael should have put more thought into what she was wearing when she got dressed. We can't know what she was thinking but obviously, she's made a mistake. Balthazar may have been a wise Moorish magi but Marie Christine didn't think too wisely.
No I get it. It's very different for POC. It also doesn't help that she has had incidents in the pass that some have deemed racially insensitive, so seeing this immediately went to being something negative. She might have have a different idea. Maybe she was trying to be supportive as they can be seen that way (though mostly not) and this just backfired. I'm not here to judge her but just show how it rubbed me wrong at first glance. It's controversial for a reason.
  #31  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:24 PM
cepe's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curbside View Post
Most African-Americans would read the brooch along the same lines as a traditional lawn jockey. Stating that it's meant to represent one of the Magi earns a serious side-eye.

I have no idea why the woman would wear something like that, since it seems to me that on such occasions you would want to seem as welcoming as possible, and not introduce even a whiff of prejudice.
I have no idea what a traditional lawn jockey is.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
  #32  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:41 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Lewisville, United States
Posts: 565
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...awn_jockey.jpg

This is a lawn jockey. They were once used as hitching posts, and the older ones depicted young black boys.
  #33  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:46 PM
cepe's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,253
Different countries histories and experiences do have a huge impact on understanding what could be offensive.

Thank you for explaining.
__________________

This precious stone set in the silver sea,......
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,
  #34  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:57 PM
Pranter's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 8,931
I googled around to find out more about Blackamore Jewelry (and art) and it seems there is quite a brisk market for these.

As to Princess Michael some folks are saying (elsewhere) it's representation of the Magi, others don't agree. It just seems unlikely she would wear that in order to cause offense. If it's something she wears every year during the Christmas season then it would seem she thinks it represents the Magi.

Anyone gone back and looked at her jewelry from previous years during Christmas season events?



LaRae
  #35  
Old 12-21-2017, 05:01 AM
Gaudete's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: South East Coast, United Kingdom
Posts: 514
British Royal Christmas 2008-2017

As usual, there are people who only want to see the worst in Princess Michael when there’s actually nothing to suggest she’s antagonist other than gutter press gossip. It’s a brooch she clearly likes and decided to wear to a private family event. Had she not been photographed going in, we would never have seen it. There’s far too much offence taken these days at innocent things. It’s just a brooch. That’s all.
  #36  
Old 12-21-2017, 05:19 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,414
Quote:
Even a brooch.
People 'taking offence' on behalf of Ms Markle [whose reaction IF any, they cannot know] is beyond absurd.
It's a jewel for heaven sake.. and if it represents a 'Moor' they were slave owners themselves NOT slaves, which makes such an OTT reaction doubly ridiculous...

Had HRH worn a KKK white conical hat I can see that offence would have been both taken and intended, but a brooch !
  #37  
Old 12-21-2017, 05:22 AM
Gaudete's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: South East Coast, United Kingdom
Posts: 514
I totally agree. Whatever Marie Christine does is over examined and dragged out of all proportion. Always has been. It’s unfortunate because she’s probably one of the most intelligent royals, yet another reason that I cannot see she’d wear something to deliberately offend Meghan. What would she have to gain by doing such a thing anyway? Absurd.
  #38  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:05 AM
Spectator's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 34
Blatant disrespect.Ive not heard nice things about her so I'm not surprised.Out of all the times she could have worn that,it's now? Really?Yeah I'm going to side eye her hard
  #39  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:08 AM
Pranter's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 8,931
Here's the thing Spectator we don't know if she's worn this now (implied for the first time) or not....we rarely see what they wear for the Queen's private events. She could of been wearing this brooch for years during the Christmas season.

Why assume the worst about people? If she were a known racist then yeah I'd get it but otherwise I think it's wrong to jump to the worst conclusion.


LaRae
  #40  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:08 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: pinner, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,414
Quote:
I'm going to side eye her hard
I daresay she'll 'cope'...
__________________

Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dubai Ruling Family at the Newmarket Horse Race: 2012 - 2013, 2015 Artemisia Ruling Family of Dubai 17 05-07-2017 05:09 AM
the casiraghi trio dating outside their race stephanie201985 Princess Caroline and Family 81 08-13-2009 07:37 AM
Fargerik Fotball (Football against Racism) sofajr Crown Prince Haakon, Crown Princess Mette-Marit and Family 7 06-10-2008 04:50 AM
Do you think Harry (or Wills) will ever date outside their race? babybird The Duke and Duchess of Sussex 167 03-14-2006 07:22 AM




Popular Tags
australia beatrice (1986- ) british royal history camilla charles chris o'neill crown princess victoria current events duchess of cambridge eveningwear duchess of cambridge gala dress duchess of cornwall duke of york family fashion general news general royal discussion genetics grand duke henri hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume infanta cristina infanta elena infanta leonor infanta margarita infanta sofia iñaki iñaki urdangarín king felipe king felipe vi king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg meghan markle news philippe porphyria portugal prince charles prince daniel prince gabriel prince harry prince harry of wales prince nicholas prince oscar princess beatrice princess estelle princess leonore princess madeleine princess of asturias princess victoria queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen mathilde queen maxima royal ancestry royal geneology royal wedding spanish jewels state visit stephanie sweden swedish royal family the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge fashion victoria visit to spain wedding



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:25 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018
Jelsoft Enterprises