The British Nobility thread

[Marsel]

Ten dukes-a-dining: Gathered together over lunch for a unique picture, the grandees with £2bn and 340,000 acres between them

At first glance, it might resemble the board meeting of a firm of auctioneers or a convention of prep school headmasters.
On closer inspection, it is actually a remarkable portrait of the grandest club in Britain, a super-elite who account for some 340,000 acres, more than £2billion and 4,505 years of aristocratic moving and shaking.
Some owe their fortunes to bravery in battle, others to royal philandering or political chicanery. But they are all distantly related to each other and they are all addressed in exactly the same way: Your Grace.

I found this article very interesting, if only because I'd never seen some of the coat of arms before.

Does anyone know what Duke of Montrose's coat of arms, especially the yellow symbolize? The roses, I assume, is a wordplay on 'Montrose'.
Duke of Rutland's coat (if that's indeed a coat) is rather unusual, I can't even recognize any details. I wonder whether the current Duke is as popular as his father, may he rest in peace.
Duke of Northumberland's coat of arms is new to me as well: does anyone know what it symbolizes? I'm especially interested in the silver half-moon at the top.
I remember that the shells on Duke of Bedford's coat were a wordplay on something, but I really can't recall what.
Duke of Leinster's coats are also unusual: apart from the obvious red cross on the white background and the motto, every other detail is a complete mystery to me.
And just out of interest, Duke of Wellington's shield features white cross on the red background (with white circles) with the British/UK flag: why not the usual red cross on the white background and was the British flag part of the original shield? And what about those white circles (I think it had something to do with Mornington title but don’t remember what precisely)?

And an interesting misprint in the article: according to it, John Seymour, 19th Duke of Somerset is a descendant of Jane Seymour.

[Wisteria]

Thanks Marsel, that is extremely interesting. As you said it is the wrong use of the word descendant when it says he is a descendant of Jane Seymour, poor Jane died of childbirth and her son died young without heirs. The correct way of describing him would have be that he is a descendant of Jane Seymour´s brother. A slip of the pen no doubt.
I am amazed at how like his mother the present Duke of Bedford is, he gets his dark looks from her, a most beautiful woman, debutante of the year in her day.

[Royal Fan]

Will these men or their Heirs be at the Next Coronation

[Marsel]

Unless some extraordinary situation will make the attendance of any of them undesirable, they will most certainly attend Charles's coronation.

Dukes are some of the most important (symbolic) participants of the Coronation of the British Monarch. They rank lower than only the Monarch, his/her consort and their family (children, grandchildren, siblings and their children).
Duke of Somerset, for example, will most probably (if the coronation follows traditions of the previous ones) be the Bearer of the Sceptre with the Cross, Duke of Northumberland - Bearer of the Sword of Mercy, Duke of Richmond - Bearer of the Sceptre with the Dove, Duke of Portland will be Bearer of the Consort's Crown, Duke of Rutland - Bearer of the Consort's Sceptre with the Cross, The Duke of Wellington - Bearer of the Pall of Gold (that is, one of 4 bearers – all bearers should be Knights of Garter).

The participants will wear special robes or uniforms. The Royal dukes use six rows of ermine. The rank of other participants is determined by rows of sealskin spots on their capes: dukes are entitled to 4 rows, marquises use 3.5, earls - 3, viscounts – 2.5, while barons and lords are entitled to only 2.
Similarly, the rank of ladies is determined by the length of their trains and the width of ermine edging on them: the duchesses are entitled to 2m long trains, marchionesses – 1.75m, countesses – 1.5m, viscountesses – 1.25m, while baroness and ladies come last with 1m long train.

Another mark of the participants’ rank is the design of the coronets. Prince William (as Heir Apparent) will wear a coronet with 2 crosses-pattée alternating with 4 fleurs-de-lis, surmounted by an arch. The same style, but without the arch, will be used by Prince Harry, Prince Andrew, Prince Edward and Princess Anne. If William has children by the time of coronation, they will wear coronets with 4 fleurs-de-lis, 2 crosses-pattée and 2 strawberry leaves. If Harry has children by the time as well, they will wear coronet of the same design as Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and James (but not Peter and Zara): 2 fleurs-de-lis, 4 crosses-pattée and 4 strawberry leaves.
Coronets of non-royal dukes and duchesses will feature 8 strawberry leaves, coronets of marquises and marchionesses – 4 strawberry leaves and 4 raised silver balls, earls and countesses will wear coronets with 8 strawberry leaves and 8 silver balls, viscounts and viscountesses – 16 silver balls and finally barons, baronesses, lords, ladies and peers will get only 6 silver balls.

(sources: Wikipedia, Royal website and footage of Queen's 1953 coronation)

[ada]

Thank you for all this very interesting information I had no idea about the coronets and the trains

[Iluvbertie]

The most senior holder of each rank of nobility actually swears allegiance to the monarch and the rest of those of that rank echo the oath from their seats. At Victoria's coronation and earlier they all did so in person but due to Edward VII's appendectomy only the senior of each rank did so and that has continued.

Regarding the children of William and Harry, it will depend on their ages as to whether they attend and if they have coronets etc based on the fact that Charles, aged 4 attended but didn't wear a coronet to his mother's coronation. Both Elizabeth and Margaret had them at their father's coronation in 1937.

[Marsel]

David Cholmondeley, 7th Marquess of Cholmondeley and his wife Rose welcomed twin boys on Monday.
The eldest of the yet-unnamed twins will be styled Earl of Rocksavage (or, since his father sometimes used 'David Rocksavage' in his professional life, he child may be known as Viscount Malpas - title reserved for the eldest son of the Heir Apparent).

Marquess of Cholmondeley is the direct descendant of Sir Robert Walpole, Britain's first Prime Minister. He's also currently the only Marquess in the House of Lords.
Following the death of his father, Hugh Cholmondeley, 6th Marquess of Cholmondeley in 1990, he became hereditary Lord Great Chamberlain to Her Majesty.

[MAfan]

Oh, this is a very big problem...and an original solution, IMO. Which othern criterions can they use, if not the weight?

[Furienna]

I don't understand. Why should they go after the birth weight?

[susan alicia]

It pays to be chubby for the Marquess of Cholmondeley

titel of the article is so funny

[Furienna]

Why can't they wait with deciding who will inherit the estates and the title until later on then? Maybe one of the twins will be happy to give it up to his brother in the future? Of course, it has never been done before, but it doesn't seem like two twin boys have been delivered through ceasarian section before either, so what can you do?

[Roslyn]

Wouldn't one of the babies have been removed first? If so, maybe no-one remembers which one it was. Ah! The interesting questions that occur reading TRF.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Roslyn

Wouldn't one of the babies have been removed first? If so, maybe no-one remembers which one it was. Ah! The interesting questions that occur reading TRF.

The trouble is, even though they know which one was removed first, it was human intervention that delivered the children and that is not normally the way inheritance rules work. Didn't the doctors or nurses notice which child was nearest the natural exit (so to speak)? I can see this causing problems as the boys grow, because it will appear the parents chose one over the other. Terrible dilemma though!

[Iluvbertie]

I am probably way off base here but I seem to remember reading once - back in the Dark Ages of the 1970s - that when multiple births are delivered by c-section it means that the child who is intended to be born second actually comes first and vice versa. It is also normal (but not always) for the larger twin to be born first so taking the larger twin by birth weight would also mean that they are taking the child intended to be born first if a natural birth had occurred.

[Roslyn]

Iluvbertie may have hit on the reason for the decision to be made according to birth weight.

But I still foresee lots of fights deteriorating into ugly screaming matches with the second born screeching "I've got just as much right to it as you have and you were only chosen because you're fat!"

[Patra]

In the United Sates the time of birth, is a "live birth", which would determine the first born or heir. Only one twin can be physically removed via C Section at a time or born as it were, usually 2 minutes apart is the average.

The birth weight seems like a "survival of the fittest" choice, and rather arcaic, IMO! (as a mother of 8 yr old 70 lb twins myself) nPerhaps the eldest twin has a handicap which might prevent heirship which we are unaware of at this time....

[susan alicia]

this caught my eye: so strange...........

'He was obsessed with Rupert for a bit,' says a female friend; another speaks of the sight of the handsome Everett in a diamond choker.

[Stejak]

I am wondering if anyone could assist me, I'm looking for a Picture of Deborah Duchess of Devonshire in her Coronation Robes 1953 or any other Rare Photograph of Debo Dowager Duchess of Devonshire Thanks

[lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Stejak

I am wondering if anyone could assist me, I'm looking for a Picture of Deborah Duchess of Devonshire in her Coronation Robes 1953 or any other Rare Photograph of Debo Dowager Duchess of Devonshire Thanks

Getty Images - Unsupported browser detected
Getty Images - Unsupported browser detected
Getty Images - Unsupported browser detected

I couldn't find any of her in the coronation but I did find these.

[Connie Cutmantle]

I am rather surprised that there is not a copy of the 1953 studio sitting portrait of Deborah Devonshire with Stoker in his outfit as her page on the Google images files!

I am pretty sure that Chatsworth would happily provide you with a copy of one of the photographs from that sitting for a nominal fee! I doubt Lismore have the facilities to offer such a service!

I wish I could be more helpful! There are various other photographs of Deborah at Google images which you may also find useful! Although I am pretty sure you have already had a good look through there!

Sorry I can not be more helpful

Tinkerty Tonk