The British Nobility thread

[selrahc4]

Skydragon and Countess have made the points which occurred to me while reading this thread. The perception that aristocrats or people who are socially prominent have more affairs than others probably arises because knowledge of these people and affairs are in the public domain. They are persons who are known of, though not personally known, and written about and spoken about by others who find them and their lives interesting. Celebrity gossip, in other words.

I've lived the majority of my life in a small village. No aristocrats. No millionaires. Believe me, infidelity and affairs occur here (and in the past), probably at around the same rate as anywhere else or among any other level of society. (Not me, though )

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by LadyCat

I was under the impression that titles passd through the male line by law, that tiles held by females became extinct upon their death. I know there were several titles that became extinct when there was no male to inherit, with the except being the sovereign.

Cat

It all depends of the special reminders of the Letters Patent. There are peerages that can be inherited through the female line and others who can't. A peer without children or only with daughters may hold several titles and each title is being treated differently. So one might go extinct or pass into another branch of the family and another one might end up with the daughter. If you're interested, look up "Sutherland". That's interesting because a Marquess had married a Countess in her own right and the king created the Marquess a duke with his wife's name. But when the last duke died without children, the dukedom of Sutherland along with the peerage of the marquess went to a very distant relative who is now Duke of Sutherland while the earldom ended up with the late duke's niece, who is now the Countess of Sutherland...

[Jo of Palatine]

The Duchess of Cleveland, Duchess in her own right

Barbara Villiers was born the daughter of Viscount Grandison, a cousin of the Duke of Buckingham. She married Roger Palmer, but soon became the mistress of king Charles II. who first created her husband Earl of Castlemaine making her a countess by marriage. Then the king created his mistress baroness Nonsuch, then Countess of Southampton and Duchess of Cleveland in her own right with special reminder that her eldest son, who like his siblings was the child of the king and not of Barbara's husband, later could inherit this title.

But the king did more - here's what became of the children of Barbara Villiers:Of her six children, five were acknowledged by Charles as his:
1. Lady Anne Palmer, later FitzRoy (1661-1722), probably daughter of Charles II, although some people believed she bore a resemblance to the Earl of Chesterfield. She later became the Countess of Sussex
2. Charles Palmer, later FitzRoy (1662-1730), styled Lord Limerick and later Earl of Southampton, created Duke of Southampton (1675), later 2nd Duke of Cleveland (1709)
3. Henry FitzRoy (1663-1690), created Earl of Euston (1672) and Duke of Grafton (1675)
4. Charlotte FitzRoy (1664-1718), later Countess of Lichfield
5. George FitzRoy (1665-1716), created Earl of Northumberland (1674) and Duke of Northumberland (1683)
6. Barbara (Benedicta) FitzRoy (1672-1737) - Cleveland claimed that she was Charles' daughter, but she was probably the child of her mother's second-cousin and lover, John Churchill, later Duke of Marlborough.



Okay, different times but it had happened before.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by LadyCat

Thank you Jo of Palentine and everyone else for setting me straight on the whole business of titles that are "inherited". You learn something new every day!

Cat

Cat, there's a nice lady called Laura out there who once, back in the 90ties, collected information of all kinds about titles of the British nobility. She addressed it to the readers and authors of historical novels, especially romances, because it's unbelievable how much errors appear there.

I found the page highly interesting and very informative. As it's good to read either, maybe you like to look around it?

British Titles of Nobility

Have fun!

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

It all depends of the special reminders of the Letters Patent. There are peerages that can be inherited through the female line and others who can't. A peer without children or only with daughters may hold several titles and each title is being treated differently. So one might go extinct or pass into another branch of the family and another one might end up with the daughter. If you're interested, look up "Sutherland". That's interesting because a Marquess had married a Countess in her own right and the king created the Marquess a duke with his wife's name. But when the last duke died without children, the dukedom of Sutherland along with the peerage of the marquess went to a very distant relative who is now Duke of Sutherland while the earldom ended up with the late duke's niece, who is now the Countess of Sutherland...

I have always heard that it is Scottish titles that can be inherited by the female line.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Menarue

I have always heard that it is Scottish titles that can be inherited by the female line.

There are some Scottish titles with special reminders as well as some old English baronies. But in general Scottish titles cannot be inherited through the female line. It used to be more common till the renaissance, as in medieval times men could die much more easily before marrying or fathering an heir, so often their sisters would inherit. Therefore eg. all sisters inherit together and it's up to the king (today parliament) to decide which sister's husband or son would be the new lord. Some titles are still in abeyance today because the family could not agree onto one heir and the souverain/Parliament did not want to decide.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

There are some Scottish titles with special reminders as well as some old English baronies. But in general Scottish titles cannot be inherited through the female line.

What brought this to mind was the mention of Sutherland. When the 4th Duke Alistair Sutherland-Leveson-Gower died his daughter inherited the Scottish title of 24th Countess of Sutherland because she couldn´t inherit that of the Duke because it was English.
Strange really when we remember the Great Queens of England who inherited their titles because of a lack of male heirs.

[Russophile]

Which one Y? There's 11 of them. Was Ben d'or one of them? I can't remember.

[ysbel]

Well unless he's died, Russo, (which I don't think so) the current Duke of Marlborough has had at least 4 and maybe 5 wives. His first wife was an English aristocrat; his second wife was Athina Onassis, I don't know anything about his 3rd wife, but his 4th wife was the daughter of a Danish diplomat and he may have had a 5th marriage.

His first son and heir, Jamie, Lord Blandford, was infamous for getting into scrapes with the law because of his heroin addiction. Jamie's step-sister Christina Onassis was one of the few who kept close to him, tried to help him out and he swindled a great deal of money from her.

Jamie was infamous as being one of the examples cited that prompted the government to totally revamp the House of Lords to unseat the titled aristocracy. The Duke of Marlborough had a seat in the House of Lords and one government official was quoted as saying that hell would freeze over before the likes of Jamie Blandford would take his seat in the House of Lords. He wasn't the only reason of course but he was a convenient cautionary example for the politicians that totally wanted to scrap the aristocrat's privileges in the House of Lords.

The Blenheim estate, by law, has to go to Jamie as well as the title, Duke of Marlborough. The current Duke had to create a monstrous financial model so that in the event of Jamie inheriting Blenheim, hewouldn't be able to sell off the assets to pay for his heroin habit.

The Marlboroughs are related to the Spencers by the marriage of the heiress of the Marlborough title to the Earl of Spencer. The first son took a combination of both family names and the Marlborough title and so the Marlboroughs are known as Spencer-Churchills. The Earls of Spencer are descended from the second son from that marriage and merely took the name of Spencer.

[Russophile]

That is very interesting, Y. I looked up Wiki and they had only 3 wives listed so I wasn't sure what you meant. This is getting off topic but is there a way that they (the Lords) can by-pass somebody that's messing up in their family (i.e. Jamie Blanford) and have an heir or a blood relation take their place?? Keep it in the family but keep it clean, so to speak?

[ysbel]

I think Wikipedia is missing a marriage or two. I'm almost postive he had a marriage between Athina and Rosita. I don't think they can bypass Jamie in the inheritance.

[Russophile]

Which one was Ben d'Or that dated Coco Chanel?

[ysbel]

I thought Coco Chanel dated the Duke of Westminster.

[kelly9480]

Ben d'Or was a nickname for the 2nd Duke of Westminster. You cannot bypass Blandford from inheriting the title, but the estate has been placed in a trust to minimize the damage he could do to it before dying and leaving the estate to his son, Sunderland.

[ysbel]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

It was only last month that Princess Diana's brother Earl Spencer abruptly ended his affair with the glamorous American TV presenter who had taken the place of his second wife.

Fourth in line: Earl Spencer is spotted holidaying with ANOTHER pretty companion | Mail Online

Commitment is not the Earl's strong point, apparently.

I just hope he doesn't follow the footsteps of his cousin the Duke of Marlborough who took 4 or 5 marriages to get it right and totally screwed up his kids in the process.

[Marengo]

From The Herald:

Buccleuch adapts to rapid change in property industry
MARK WILLIAMSONSeptember 01 2008

The Duke of Buccleuch, whose family's sprawling holdings make him one of Scotland's richest men, has said business will be proceeding with prudence and caution as "unprecedented difficulties in financial markets" continued to filter through to the wider economy.

Writing in his first report as chairman of Buccleuch Estates following the death of his father last September, Richard Scott, the 10th duke, said the company was in the process of adapting to "one of the fastest corrections in the property industry experienced in recent times".
"We are of the opinion that this is a time for a steady hand," he wrote

The entire article here.

[Pixilated]

Is anyone else a fan of this lovely, talented, recently deceased Lady?

Lady Caroline Maureen Hamilton-Temple-Blackwood (July 16, 1931 – February 14, 1996) was a writer and artist's muse, and the eldest child of Basil Hamilton-Temple-Blackwood, 4th Marquess of Dufferin and Ava and the brewery heiress Maureen Guinness.
A well-known figure in the literary world through her journalism and her novels, Caroline Blackwood was equally well-known for her high-profile marriages, first to the artist Lucian Freud, then to the composer Israel Citkowitz and finally to the poet Robert Lowell, who described her as "a mermaid who dines upon the bones of her winded lovers". Her novels are known for their wit and intelligence, and one in particular is scathingly autobiographical in describing her unhappy childhood.
She was born at 4 Hans Crescent in Knightsbridge, her parents' London house, and was, she admitted, "scantily educated" at Rockport School in County Down, at Brilliantmont in Lausanne, and at Downham in Essex. After a finishing school in Oxford she was presented as a debutante in 1949 at a ball held at Londonderry House. Plump, ungainly and lacking in confidence as a teenager, she soon blossomed into a captivating blonde beauty with startlingly large blue eyes.

[edit] Career

Blackwood’s first job was with Hulton Press as a secretary, but she was soon given small reporting jobs by Claud Cockburn. Ann Fleming, the wife of "James Bond" author Ian Fleming, introduced Caroline to Lucian Freud, and the two eloped to Paris in 1952. In Paris she met Picasso (and reportedly refused to wash for three days after he drew on her hands and nails), and after their marriage on December 9, 1953 she became a striking figure in London's bohemian circles; the Gargoyle Club and Colony Room replaced Belgravia drawing rooms as her haunts. She sat for several of Freud's finest portraits, including Girl In Bed, which testifies to her alluring beauty. She was impressed by the ruthless vision of Freud and Francis Bacon and her later fiction was a literary version of their view of humanity.
In the early 1960s Caroline Blackwood began contributing to Encounter, the London Magazine, and other periodicals on subjects such as beatniks, Ulster sectarianism, women's lib theatre and New York free schools. Although these articles were elegant, minutely observed and sometimes wickedly funny, they had, according to Christopher Isherwood, a persistent flaw: "She is only capable of thinking negatively. Confronted by a phenomenon, she asks herself: what is wrong with it?" During the mid-1960s she had an affair with Bob Silvers, the founder and co-editor of the New York Review of Books and although her marriage to Israel Citkowitz was over, he continued to live near her and served as a nanny-duenna until his death.
Her third husband Robert Lowell was a crucial influence on her talents as a novelist. He encouraged her to write her first book, For All That I Found There (1973), which was named after an Ulster Protestant marching song and formed a coruscating memoir of her daughter’s treatment in a burns unit. Blackwood’s first novel The Stepdaughter (1976) appeared three years later to much acclaim, and is a concise and gripping monologue by a rich, self-pitying woman deserted by her husband in a plush New York apartment and tormented by her fat stepdaughter. It won the David Higham Prize for best first novel. Great Granny Webster followed in 1977 and was partly derived on her own miserable childhood, and depicted an austere and loveless old woman’s destructive impact on her daughter and granddaughter. It was short-listed for the Booker Prize.
In 1980 came The Last of the Duchess, a study of the relations between the Duchess of Windsor and her cunning lawyer, Maître Suzanne Blum; it could not be published until after Blum’s death in 1995. Her third novel The Fate of Mary Rose (1981) describes the effect on a Kent village of the rape and torture of a ten year-old girl named Maureen and is narrated by a selfish historian whose obsessions destroy his domestic life. After this came a collection of five short stories, Good Night Sweet Ladies (1983) followed by her final novel, Corrigan (1984), which was the least successful and depicts the effects on a depressed widow of a charming, energetic but sinister cripple who erupts into her life.
Blackwood’s later books were based on interviews and vignettes, including On The Perimeter (1984) which focused her attentions on the women’s peace encampment at the Greenham Common air base in Berkshire, and In The Pink (1987) which was a reflective, ghoulish book looking at the hunting and the hunt saboteur fraternities and exposed the many obsessive personalities of both fox-hunters and animal rights activists.

[edit] Personal Life and Family

Her marriage to Lucian Freud disintegrated soon after they tied the knot and in 1957 Blackwood moved to New York where she studied acting at the Stella Adler School. She also went to Hollywood and appeared in several films. Her marriage to Freud was finally dissolved in Mexico in 1958. Meeting her in that year, Isherwood noted that "Caroline was round eyed as usual, either dumb or scared". On August 15, 1959 she married the pianist Israel Citkowitz (1909-1974), a man who would have been the same age as her father. They had three daughters, although a deathbed admission revealed that the screenwriter Ivan Moffat was the father of her youngest daughter, Ivana.
Blackwood returned to live in London in 1970 and that April began a relationship with the manic-depressive poet Robert Lowell. Lowell was at the time a visiting professor at All Souls College, Oxford. Their son, Sheridan, was born on September 28, 1971, and after obtaining divorces from their respective spouses, Blackwood and Lowell were married on October 21, 1972. They lived in London and Milgate in Kent. The sequence of poems in Lowell's The Dolphin (1973) provides a disrupted narrative of his involvement with Blackwood and the birth of their son. She was distressed and confused in her reactions to Lowell's manic episodes, and felt useless during his attacks and afraid of their effect on her children. Her anxieties, alcohol-related illnesses, and late-night tirades exacerbated his condition. Lowell died clutching one of Freud’s portraits of Blackwood in the back seat of a New York cab, on his way back to his second wife, Elizabeth Hardwick. This heartache was followed a year later by the death of her daughter Natalya from a drug overdose at the age of 18.

[Pixilated]

To avoid tax, Blackwood left England in 1977 and went to live in an apartment at the great Georgian mansion of Castletown House, County Kildare, which was owned by her cousin Desmond Guinness. Ten years later in 1987 she returned to the United States, settling in a large, comfortable house in Sag Harbor, Long Island where, although her powers were greatly depleted by alcoholism, she continued to write, including two vivid memoirs of Princess Margaret and Francis Bacon, published in the New York Review of Books in 1992.
During her final illness Blackwood never lost her dark, macabre humour. On her deathbed Anna Haycraft brought her some holy water from Lourdes which was accidentally spilled on her bed sheets. “I might have caught my death,” she muttered.
Caroline Blackwood died on February 14, 1996 from cancer at the Mayfair Hotel on Park Avenue in New York aged 64. She was survived by her two younger daughters Eugenia (b. 1963), who is married to the actor Julian Sands, and Ivana (b. 1966), her son Sheridan, her sister Lady Perdita Blackwood and her mother, who died two years later, aged 91.

[edit]

The book I read about her...she was a stunner!http://images.barnesandnoble.com/ima...0/15198073.JPG
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3166...E2DF95708CE2E3
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3166...5A1E4F32AD3138
B875F757840F5EA55A1E
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3430...5A1E4F32AD3138
4F32AD3138

[Zonk]

Originally Posted by Pixilated

To avoid tax, Blackwood left England in 1977 and went to live in an apartment at the great Georgian mansion of Castletown House, County Kildare, which was owned by her cousin Desmond Guinness. Ten years later in 1987 she returned to the United States, settling in a large, comfortable house in Sag Harbor, Long Island where, although her powers were greatly depleted by alcoholism, she continued to write, including two vivid memoirs of Princess Margaret and Francis Bacon, published in the New York Review of Books in 1992.
During her final illness Blackwood never lost her dark, macabre humour. On her deathbed Anna Haycraft brought her some holy water from Lourdes which was accidentally spilled on her bed sheets. “I might have caught my death,” she muttered.
Caroline Blackwood died on February 14, 1996 from cancer at the Mayfair Hotel on Park Avenue in New York aged 64. She was survived by her two younger daughters Eugenia (b. 1963), who is married to the actor Julian Sands, and Ivana (b. 1966), her son Sheridan, her sister Lady Perdita Blackwood and her mother, who died two years later, aged 91.

[edit]

The book I read about her...she was a stunner!http://images.barnesandnoble.com/ima...0/15198073.JPG
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3166...E2DF95708CE2E3
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3166...5A1E4F32AD3138
B875F757840F5EA55A1E
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3430...5A1E4F32AD3138
4F32AD3138

She was truly a fascinating woman. I have the book!

[Emeralds and Opals]

Former Royal butler freed of criminal tag to serve countess - Telegraph

"Countess of Arran-Grade 1 listed Castle Hill estate-near Barnstaple, Devon."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...8m-conman.html

"Rich aristocratic couple suing own lawyer for failing to stop them losing £8m to conman."

"Lord and Lady Fairhaven."