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  #61  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
No, I don't, but your comment earlier, Ysbel, about the two marriages, reminded me of Alva Vanderbilt who said to marry for money the first time, then marry for love the 2nd. Though she did quite well both times and denied poor Consuelo her love.
There are certain people who will just have affairs. I don't think this whole thing judging the British upper class is really fair. I remember reading a book about Elsa ---oh her name escapes me! She was around during the turn of the century and had many adventures and was friends with the Prince who married Rita Hayworth. Anyway, she used to say that the French had it right, if the marriage didn't work, have your dalliances on the side but keep the family together.
Interesting, I wouldn't subscribe to it, but interesting none the less.
That's interesting, Russophile. Consuelo was a favorite of Winston Churchill. I know her husband told her before the marriage that he was in love with someone else and his father wouldn't let him marry her. However that didn't seem to bother Consuelo as much as the way of life at Blenhein. She thought the castle cold and foreboding and she didn't really excel in the social duties that were required of a duchess. She appeared to me to be more of an intellectual recluse than a social butterfly and the social demands of her position must have weighed heavily on her. I was thinking that if she was a recluse, she may have preferred her husband to have something on the side to leave her alone. I think that if Consuelo had been left to her own devices, she would not have married at all.

However I saw a biography on her and they interview her great-grandchildren who all spoke very warmly of her. They said she was a very kind, very giving grandmother.
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  #62  
Old 01-29-2008, 07:58 AM
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The key in it all however, is that it's unspoken. Nobody mentions it, nobody argues about it and nobody reveals it's been going on. And that's where the whole caboodle became a problem for Diana. Charles and Camilla are more jolly hockey-sticks, "that's the way it is" types and so phone sex on a Friday and a quick fumble at Glynebourne is perfectly acceptable. If anything, I think they'd see Diana was abnormal for not finding a nice Major or Diplomat to do the same with. She was pretty, she'd have no trouble, why wasn't she taking part in country house shinanigins? Because Diana wasn't as grand as Charles and Camilla. There's a saying amongst the aristos, "Never marry a Spencer" - perhaps thats the reason. Diana looked down on wife swapping in an arena where it's a perk of the job. And so she got her heart broken. In that situation, I'm afraid one joins in with the band or you get your triangle bent. .
I have two questions though: Didn't Diana help one of her friends hide his affair? So it seems at one level she was accepting of an extramarital situation.

Second question, while Andrew Parker-Bowles appears to have just gotten his jollies by anything with two legs and a skirt , Charles seemed to break the cardinal rule of the type of infidelity you seem to be talking about and he didn't drop his mistress when she was causing trouble. As Russophile mentioned above, the rule seemed to be, 'Have your dalliance on the side but keep your family together'

It appears that Charles and Camilla rather than Diana were the fifth wheel in this type of arrangement. They were passionately in love and refused to separate from each other no matter the censure that came from others. Whereas I always got the impression from Diana that she would been less hurt if Charles had had a series of affairs with a bevy of beauties with whom he could get his jollies and whom he really didn't care about.
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  #63  
Old 01-29-2008, 01:18 PM
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Sorry Sam, I have to say I am horrified that you were subjected to that type of misuse and that if any of that went on at our weekends, I would know about it and put a stop to it, at once. I do know one of the persons you have spoken about and have told you exactly how he and his 'friends' are thought of.
Indeed. I believe they're what one might call the lower upper class. But to be honest, I didn't see it as dodgy or as a misuse - I just sort of went along with it. Then again I didn't know much different. I just assumed it went on everywhere but I'm glad to hear it isn't as widespread as I was led to believe.
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  #64  
Old 01-29-2008, 10:27 PM
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Indeed. I believe they're what one might call the lower upper class. But to be honest, I didn't see it as dodgy or as a misuse - I just sort of went along with it. Then again I didn't know much different. I just assumed it went on everywhere but I'm glad to hear it isn't as widespread as I was led to believe.
Sam - I am interested to know if it was indeed an expectation that you would just go along with it and if you considered it a casual sexual liasion or rape? Has your perspective changed since when it happened and now?
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Old 01-29-2008, 11:18 PM
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Well it was honestly never mentioned. I think once my employer's girlfriend asked me if I'd had a good night and naive me thought she was asking about the event I'd been working at so I said, "Yes thanks". Now I realise she probably knew what had gone on. I just assumed I was expected to go along with it and I suppose they assumed I was happy to just deal with it. But it never crossed my mind that it could be rape, definately not. I just saw it as something that had happened. Looking back I probably should have told someone or said something but if I'm honest, I was rather pleased it happened as it forced me to grow up even more than I had been forced to at home and in a way, I thought it very naughty and very dangerous which slightly appealed to a pure and innocent boy wondering what it was all about. I was over the age of consent and I hadn't resisted so in a way, I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on anyway.
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  #66  
Old 01-29-2008, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
That's interesting, Russophile. Consuelo was a favorite of Winston Churchill. I know her husband told her before the marriage that he was in love with someone else and his father wouldn't let him marry her. However that didn't seem to bother Consuelo as much as the way of life at Blenhein.
It was a biography on all the Vanderbilts starting with Commodore. They said that on Consuelo's wedding day Alva broke it up and Consuelo was crying and couldn't/wouldn't stop. Wondering if that's where F. Scott Fitzgereld got his inspiration for "The Great Gatsby".
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  #67  
Old 02-04-2008, 11:54 PM
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According to most biographers, Consuelo Vanderbilt was a marvelous hostess at Blenheim and did her best to do her duty as a transplanted aristocrat (American to British) and was very successful in this endeavor. She quickly produced "an heir and a spare" (she is often given credit for this statement about her two sons, which is still used today in reference to William and Harry.)

Two great books: "The Vanderbilt Women" about Alva, Consuelo and the rest, and "All that Glitters" by Consuelo herself.

The below link is to a theory about who Jay Gatsby is based on.


Old sport, it turns out Gatsby was a prizefighting Welshman - World - Times Online
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  #68  
Old 05-02-2008, 03:24 AM
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I was under the impression that titles passd through the male line by law, that tiles held by females became extinct upon their death. I know there were several titles that became extinct when there was no male to inherit, with the except being the sovereign.

Cat
It all depends of the special reminders of the Letters Patent. There are peerages that can be inherited through the female line and others who can't. A peer without children or only with daughters may hold several titles and each title is being treated differently. So one might go extinct or pass into another branch of the family and another one might end up with the daughter. If you're interested, look up "Sutherland". That's interesting because a Marquess had married a Countess in her own right and the king created the Marquess a duke with his wife's name. But when the last duke died without children, the dukedom of Sutherland along with the peerage of the marquess went to a very distant relative who is now Duke of Sutherland while the earldom ended up with the late duke's niece, who is now the Countess of Sutherland...
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  #69  
Old 05-02-2008, 03:37 AM
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The Duchess of Cleveland, Duchess in her own right

Barbara Villiers was born the daughter of Viscount Grandison, a cousin of the Duke of Buckingham. She married Roger Palmer, but soon became the mistress of king Charles II. who first created her husband Earl of Castlemaine making her a countess by marriage. Then the king created his mistress baroness Nonsuch, then Countess of Southampton and Duchess of Cleveland in her own right with special reminder that her eldest son, who like his siblings was the child of the king and not of Barbara's husband, later could inherit this title.

But the king did more - here's what became of the children of Barbara Villiers:Of her six children, five were acknowledged by Charles as his:
1. Lady Anne Palmer, later FitzRoy (1661-1722), probably daughter of Charles II, although some people believed she bore a resemblance to the Earl of Chesterfield. She later became the Countess of Sussex
2. Charles Palmer, later FitzRoy (1662-1730), styled Lord Limerick and later Earl of Southampton, created Duke of Southampton (1675), later 2nd Duke of Cleveland (1709)
3. Henry FitzRoy (1663-1690), created Earl of Euston (1672) and Duke of Grafton (1675)
4. Charlotte FitzRoy (1664-1718), later Countess of Lichfield
5. George FitzRoy (1665-1716), created Earl of Northumberland (1674) and Duke of Northumberland (1683)
6. Barbara (Benedicta) FitzRoy (1672-1737) - Cleveland claimed that she was Charles' daughter, but she was probably the child of her mother's second-cousin and lover, John Churchill, later Duke of Marlborough.



Okay, different times but it had happened before.
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  #70  
Old 05-02-2008, 08:10 AM
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Thank you Jo of Palentine and everyone else for setting me straight on the whole business of titles that are "inherited". You learn something new every day!

Cat
Cat, there's a nice lady called Laura out there who once, back in the 90ties, collected information of all kinds about titles of the British nobility. She addressed it to the readers and authors of historical novels, especially romances, because it's unbelievable how much errors appear there.

I found the page highly interesting and very informative. As it's good to read either, maybe you like to look around it?

British Titles of Nobility

Have fun!
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  #71  
Old 08-13-2008, 06:59 PM
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It was only last month that Princess Diana's brother Earl Spencer abruptly ended his affair with the glamorous American TV presenter who had taken the place of his second wife.

Fourth in line: Earl Spencer is spotted holidaying with ANOTHER pretty companion | Mail Online
Commitment is not the Earl's strong point, apparently.

I just hope he doesn't follow the footsteps of his cousin the Duke of Marlborough who took 4 or 5 marriages to get it right and totally screwed up his kids in the process.
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  #72  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:09 PM
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Which one Y? There's 11 of them. Was Ben d'or one of them? I can't remember.
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  #73  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:21 PM
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Well unless he's died, Russo, (which I don't think so) the current Duke of Marlborough has had at least 4 and maybe 5 wives. His first wife was an English aristocrat; his second wife was Athina Onassis, I don't know anything about his 3rd wife, but his 4th wife was the daughter of a Danish diplomat and he may have had a 5th marriage.

His first son and heir, Jamie, Lord Blandford, was infamous for getting into scrapes with the law because of his heroin addiction. Jamie's step-sister Christina Onassis was one of the few who kept close to him, tried to help him out and he swindled a great deal of money from her.

Jamie was infamous as being one of the examples cited that prompted the government to totally revamp the House of Lords to unseat the titled aristocracy. The Duke of Marlborough had a seat in the House of Lords and one government official was quoted as saying that hell would freeze over before the likes of Jamie Blandford would take his seat in the House of Lords. He wasn't the only reason of course but he was a convenient cautionary example for the politicians that totally wanted to scrap the aristocrat's privileges in the House of Lords.

The Blenheim estate, by law, has to go to Jamie as well as the title, Duke of Marlborough. The current Duke had to create a monstrous financial model so that in the event of Jamie inheriting Blenheim, hewouldn't be able to sell off the assets to pay for his heroin habit.

The Marlboroughs are related to the Spencers by the marriage of the heiress of the Marlborough title to the Earl of Spencer. The first son took a combination of both family names and the Marlborough title and so the Marlboroughs are known as Spencer-Churchills. The Earls of Spencer are descended from the second son from that marriage and merely took the name of Spencer.
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  #74  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:24 PM
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Side tracked, maybe new thread???

That is very interesting, Y. I looked up Wiki and they had only 3 wives listed so I wasn't sure what you meant. This is getting off topic but is there a way that they (the Lords) can by-pass somebody that's messing up in their family (i.e. Jamie Blanford) and have an heir or a blood relation take their place?? Keep it in the family but keep it clean, so to speak?
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  #75  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:36 PM
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I think Wikipedia is missing a marriage or two. I'm almost postive he had a marriage between Athina and Rosita. I don't think they can bypass Jamie in the inheritance.
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  #76  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:39 PM
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Which one was Ben d'Or that dated Coco Chanel?
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  #77  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:44 PM
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I thought Coco Chanel dated the Duke of Westminster.
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  #78  
Old 08-13-2008, 10:20 PM
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Ben d'Or was a nickname for the 2nd Duke of Westminster. You cannot bypass Blandford from inheriting the title, but the estate has been placed in a trust to minimize the damage he could do to it before dying and leaving the estate to his son, Sunderland.
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Old 10-06-2008, 06:04 AM
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From The Herald:

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Buccleuch adapts to rapid change in property industry
MARK WILLIAMSONSeptember 01 2008

The Duke of Buccleuch, whose family's sprawling holdings make him one of Scotland's richest men, has said business will be proceeding with prudence and caution as "unprecedented difficulties in financial markets" continued to filter through to the wider economy.

Writing in his first report as chairman of Buccleuch Estates following the death of his father last September, Richard Scott, the 10th duke, said the company was in the process of adapting to "one of the fastest corrections in the property industry experienced in recent times".
"We are of the opinion that this is a time for a steady hand," he wrote
The entire article here.
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Old 10-06-2008, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
It all depends of the special reminders of the Letters Patent. There are peerages that can be inherited through the female line and others who can't. A peer without children or only with daughters may hold several titles and each title is being treated differently. So one might go extinct or pass into another branch of the family and another one might end up with the daughter. If you're interested, look up "Sutherland". That's interesting because a Marquess had married a Countess in her own right and the king created the Marquess a duke with his wife's name. But when the last duke died without children, the dukedom of Sutherland along with the peerage of the marquess went to a very distant relative who is now Duke of Sutherland while the earldom ended up with the late duke's niece, who is now the Countess of Sutherland...
I have always heard that it is Scottish titles that can be inherited by the female line.
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