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  #441  
Old 12-19-2012, 03:20 AM
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And a new article:
My daughter is the victim of a flawed system - Telegraph
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  #442  
Old 12-19-2012, 06:59 AM
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Ridiculous. Her daughter is not a victim of anything. None of them are. They are who they are and where they are precisely thanks to the "flawed system". Had females been allowed to succeed to the titles, their husbands and fathers would have never inherited them and they would've never had what they do have. The titles that were granted to a person and his/her heirs male of the body lawfully begotten should pass to heirs male lawfully begotten. The titles that were intended to be able to pass to females and through females such pass accordingly. I wouldn't mind if the hereditary titles were granted with remainder to heirs male and female alike or heirs female only in the future, but altering the existing ones is something that only ever happened once (to the Dukedom of Marlborough, which passes according to the most peculiar system I've ever heard of).

Now, all this equality crap makes no sense when dealing with things like nobility and peerage. How on Earth can one call for equality when the whole point of nobility is unequality? The system of nobility discriminates against all children except for the eldest legitimate son (or in some cases, all but the eldest legitimate daughter). It discriminates against the rest of the society just as much.

Now, why wouldn't titles be allowed to pass to illegitimate children as well? Why is it not okay to pass over legitimate daughters but is okay to pass over all recognised illegitimate children? I really hope they don't open that big can of worms.
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  #443  
Old 12-19-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
Now, all this equality crap makes no sense when dealing with things like nobility and peerage. How on Earth can one call for equality when the whole point of nobility is unequality? The system of nobility discriminates against all children except for the eldest legitimate son (or in some cases, all but the eldest legitimate daughter). It discriminates against the rest of the society just as much.

Now, why wouldn't titles be allowed to pass to illegitimate children as well? Why is it not okay to pass over legitimate daughters but is okay to pass over all recognised illegitimate children? I really hope they don't open that big can of worms.
Good points.
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  #444  
Old 12-19-2012, 10:34 AM
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It is 2012, let them inherit. I understand that estates, fortunes, etc, have been kept together for literally hundreds of years with the oldest son, but come on, let the girls have be able to inherit, the money, homes, etc. Heck, if not for women, the Greek Royal Family, and the Mountbattens/Battenbergs would not have a pot to pee in. Thanks to: Princess Marie Boneparte - how many relatives did she support????, Princess Anastasia (former Nancy Leeds), Edwina Ashley (My God, the people she sent checks and paid for...poor lady), Marie Chantal, etc.

Many of these women are vibrant, intelligent ladies such as the Duchess of Rutland and the Lady Romsey, who run the estates in the absense or withering of husbands who have titles, but not enough backbone. The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire certainly played a HUGE role in ensuring Chatsworth was able to move into the 21st century.
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  #445  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:07 AM
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Let them inherit? Titles? Why? Nobody says they're not capable of holding a title. You can't really be incapable of being titled. The point is that titles that can only pass to males were granted to "XXX and his/her heirs male", and should thus pass to heirs male.

Should Princess Beatrice all of a sudden become 2nd Duchess of York? I don't think so. Titles are usually deliberately created with restrictions to succession. That's what's allowed the Dukedom of York to be recreated for the second son since the Wars of the Roses. That's what allows Prince and Princess William to be known as Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.

As I said, succession to peerage titles is not something that should be done retroactively. If necessary, grant titles with different remainders in the future, but don't mess with the existing ones.

And the "it's 2012"/"it's the 21st century" argument isn't really convincing. It can only make one wonder why hereditary titles and nobility still exist. If they are going to exist, they should exist as relicts of history. Nobody can possibly make them "undiscriminatory" or "equality-suiting", and nobody should try to - unless the ultimate goal is to have them abolished altogether.
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  #446  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:07 AM
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Either keep this as things as they are according to each peerages letters patent or abolish all the hereditary peerages (which would certainly be the simplest solution). They no longer play a role in the governance of the nation so I cannot see any good reason for the government to waste time on something which is essentially a private club when the givernment should be dealing with the important issues of the day.
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  #447  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:46 AM
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The government has much bigger issues to deal with. As we've seen with Nick Clegg's attempt at having elected 'Senators' in the Lords, these issues require lots of debate and in most cases a referendum (in the case of the Lords)
If the government tried to just 'abolish' hereditary titles, they would be tied up in litigation for a 100 years.
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  #448  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:49 AM
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Exactly. Is anyone really going to be touched by a rich heiress crying because she won't get to be a countess? Hereditary peerage titles are historical relicts and should either be kept as such or abolished. Attempting to 'modernise' them is just laughable.
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  #449  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:32 PM
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Yes.. I wonder how many of you would be upset if it were you with your families, say a house or condo or land, and you could not inherit something from your families simply because you are a female. I bet you would change your mind..

I am NOT talking about titles.. I am talking about land, money, etc, that is their birthright, just the same as anything in my family. It does not matter if it is a set of dishes, money, a house, land, etc. NOT titles. Simply giving everything to the male first because he is a male is archaic.
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  #450  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:41 PM
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Line of hereditary succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The current titles have been created by Letters Patent which are legal documents, and can't be altered except by an Act of Parliament, and almost all titles have the standard remainder 'heirs male' .
It would be next to impossible to retroactively change the existing titles without creating chaos and crippling the courts and legal system for years.
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  #451  
Old 12-19-2012, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade View Post
Yes.. I wonder how many of you would be upset if it were you with your families, say a house or condo or land, and you could not inherit something from your families simply because you are a female. I bet you would change your mind..

I am NOT talking about titles.. I am talking about land, money, etc, that is their birthright, just the same as anything in my family. It does not matter if it is a set of dishes, money, a house, land, etc. NOT titles. Simply giving everything to the male first because he is a male is archaic.
Not all peers have estates.
Not all peers have notable wealth.
The days of Downton Abbey are long over, estates are no longer tied to the title.
Peers can leave whatever of their private assets they wish to their children in any amounts they wish. It is only succession to the title that they have no control over.
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  #452  
Old 12-19-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Not all peers have estates.
Not all peers have notable wealth.
The days of Downton Abbey are long over, estates are no longer tied to the title.
Peers can leave whatever of their private assets they wish to their children in any amounts they wish. It is only succession to the title that they have no control over.
The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire lives in a cottage in the grounds of Chatsworth House and also, the Earl of Carnarvon lives in a farm house in the gardens of Highclere.
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  #453  
Old 12-19-2012, 04:56 PM
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^^^^^
And that has what to do with anything?
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  #454  
Old 12-19-2012, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine
^^^^^
And that has what to do with anything?
Ah, sorry, just a bit of information I recently found out
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  #455  
Old 12-19-2012, 09:47 PM
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Don't kid yourself, many of them still have their estates, many more than one, and many are cash and land rich too, along with their private art collections.

I just feel daughters should be able to inherit, plain and simple.
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  #456  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:02 PM
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^^^^
But daughters can inherit private property, money, paintings etc.......it is just in most (but not all) cases they cannot inherit the peerage. I dont think they will earn a lot of sympathy from the public by claiming they are hard done by........but I can see the people telling the government "if this is so important just abolish the hereditary peerages and make the ladies happy because then they will be the equal of the sons,,,no hereditary titles for anyone".
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  #457  
Old 12-19-2012, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
^^^^
But daughters can inherit private property, money, paintings etc.......it is just in most (but not all) cases they cannot inherit the peerage. I dont think they will earn a lot of sympathy from the public by claiming they are hard done by........but I can see the people telling the government "if this is so important just abolish the hereditary peerages and make the ladies happy because then they will be the equal of the sons,,,no hereditary titles for anyone".
Exactly!! and i think this focus on the titles will lead to just that
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  #458  
Old 12-21-2012, 04:41 PM
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If they just leave things the way they are, and let titles die out where there is no one under current law to inherit, and don't create any new hereditary titles (just the ones like knight and dame that are for the one person's lifetime), then I would think the aristocracy would eventually fade away. Without the need for litigation and lawmaking. Then I suppose it would only be the immediate family of the monarch who would be titled. Though the die-out would take a long time, the titles would eventually have little meaning.
This is my ignorance as an American of British politics, but what do the nobles in the House of Lords do? They don't govern the country any more, right, but I gather that they still meet -- what do they do?
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  #459  
Old 12-21-2012, 05:09 PM
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A sort version.....The House of Lords in now made up of Life Peers, who are largely party affiliated appointments. They function as the house of sober second thought, have committees to review bills and other issues, reviews Commons bills. Bills from the House of Commons must also be passed in the House of Lords before becoming law. Only Finance bills cannot be delayed by the Lords.
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  #460  
Old 12-25-2012, 02:17 AM
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I see..thanks for the explanation. So hereditary peers no longer are members of the House of Lords? Is it essentially a royal appointment then?
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