The British Nobility thread

[Mariel]

Peerage: There was a title "Lady of Rothes" which came down from the 12th century.
How it started was this: Peter de Pollock was a very large landowner in Scotland and built the Castle of Rothes at the behest of King William the Lion, in Rothes (far north of Scotland) probably to be a way stop or inspecting station for returning crusaders. Peter had no son, but his daughter Muriel (sometimes spelled Mauricle, by mistake) inherited the castle. Muriel had no son, but her daughter Eva, married to a knight called Watson, inherited the castle and the title Lady of Rothes. Eva had no son, but her daughter (no name found) married Sir Norman de Leslyn, founder of the Leslie family. The title came down to the present, and a woman could claim it if no male heir was found. The last holder was Lady Georgina Maxwell, but I think that these peerages were all cancelled late in the 20th century.
I am a descendant of Peter de Pollock's brother, Robert de Pollock, whose family seat was in Renfrewshire, and who was a follower of Walter Fitzallen, the first of the "Stuarts" to live full time in Scotland. The Stuarts and their followers came there from England after the dustup over the English succession between Matilda and Steven, as heirs of William the Conqueror. They came at the behest of David I of Scotland, and helped set up the feudal system organized by David I's mother, Queen Margaret. I found all this material while trying to find the history of my Pollock family.

[Artemisia]

Marquess of Bath's nephew walks free from court after 26 cannabis plants, ecstasy and magic mushrooms were found at his home within the Longleat estate

The nephew of aristocrat Lord Bath has avoided jail after he admitted stashing 26 cannabis plants, ecstasy and magic mushrooms at his cottage within the Longleat estate. Police found the huge drug haul when they raided the Wiltshire cottage of Alexander Thynne - whose uncle owns the multimillion-pound Longleat stately home and grounds. The 50-year-old avoided prison despite having been caught with more than 40 cannabis plants worth £3,000 in his loft in 2003.

[KittyAtlanta]

That is an outrageous verdict, requiring no expansion on my part.

[MAfan]

Does anyone have more informations about this Alexander Thynne? I have tried to find him in a genealogy of Thynne family, but it seems that no Alexander nephew of the current Marquess exists.

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Does anyone have more informations about this Alexander Thynne? I have tried to find him in a genealogy of Thynne family, but it seems that no Alexander nephew of the current Marquess exists.

No idea. Alexander Thynne is supposed to be the son of the Marquess's younger brother, Lord Christopher John Thynne. However, to the best of my knowledge, Lord Christopher and Lady Antonia only have one child - Sophia Emma Thynne. Alexander might be an illegitimate son (this is speculation on my part).
I went back and checked all the descendants of the third Marquis of Bath - and no Alexander Thynne among them (of the corresponding age).

[MAfan]

There was also another younger brother, Lord Valentine Thynne (1937-1979), who was married form 1961 to 1971 to Veronica Ann Jacks with whom he had a daughter in 1962 and a son in 1965; but if Alexander were their son, I wonder why he isn't listed.

Yes, maybe Alexander is indeed an illegitimate son; but who are his parents?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by MAfan

Yes, maybe Alexander is indeed an illegitimate son; but who are his parents?

The Daily Mail says his father is Lord Christopher, so (assuming that information is accurate) Alexander could be his child with someone other than Lady Antonia. Lord Christopher was born in 1934 and got married in 1968. Alexander Thynne is 50 years old, meaning he was born in 1962, when Lord Christopher was 28 years old (and before his marriage to Lady Antonia).

I have to say though that if Alexander Thynne is indeed the son of Lord Christopher, it is somewhat surprising he was allowed to live on Marquis's estate, given the less than warm relationship between the brothers.

[NGalitzine]

The Longleat clan have a well earned reputation for "eccentricities", but I don't think his sentence is very unusual for someone who has admitted his problems, is attempting to get clean and who is employed full time. He was not accused of trafficing which would have resulted in a harsher sentence.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by Artemisia

Lord Christopher was born in 1934 and got married in 1968. Alexander Thynne is 50 years old, meaning he was born in 1962, when Lord Christopher was 18 years old (and before his marriage to Lady Antonia).

Lord Christopher would have been 28 years old in 1962, not 18 years old. But then again, 18-year-olds can become fathers too.

[KittyAtlanta]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

The Longleat clan have a well earned reputation for "eccentricities", but I don't think his sentence is very unusual for someone who has admitted his problems, is attempting to get clean and who is employed full time. He was not accused of trafficing which would have resulted in a harsher sentence.

With that much stuff at his place, he's a lucky man to have gotten off the charge. How would someone who is "attempting" to get/stay clean be able to live around his devil? He's either using non-stop or dealing. Were the plants confiscated?

[Artemisia]

Originally Posted by Furienna

Lord Christopher would have been 28 years old in 1962, not 18 years old. But then again, 18-year-olds can become fathers too.

That was a typo, thanks for noticing it!

[madeleineleigh]

I was hoping to start a conversation in this thread about the pros and cons of moving from male primogeniture to absolute primogeniture within the English nobility. I can see the rationale for keeping the bulk of the estate intact along with the title by passing it to one child, otherwise the family history and estates will peter away to nothing by being constantly split, generation after generation between many children.

Many monarchies have now moved to absolute primogeniture, and it is likely (or certain?) that whatever the sex of Kate & William's first child, that child will one day be monarch (barring unfortunate circumstances). But it seems easier to change the primogeniture form for the throne, than for all the separate titles. I think this may require a separate act of parliament for each title, no? Not sure on the legal specifics here.

I think everyone rational and non-misogynistic now accepts that women are as equally capable as men, and just as able to be intelligent. I myself am I feminist and can imagine being quite offended if I was the position of a being a first born and a daughter of the Duke of X, and being essentially told you are unworthy to inherit the estate simply because you are a woman and your younger brother will be hitting the jackpot just because he is male.

One notable issue could be the importance of the family name and the fact that tradition dictates that women change their name when they marry. For example, the Dukes of Devonshire's family name is Cavendish and it is very much part of their identity. This issue could circumvented in absolute primogeniture by including some sort of caveat in the amended title that the bearer must carry the surname of X or just having a new family tradition that the title bearer should carry surname X.

There is quite a large article which discusses the background of primogeniture over at wiki.

What are everyone's thoughts on the concept and the actual mechanics of changing it? I would love hear everyone's varying thoughts, even if they don't necessarily agree.

[fearghas]

I hate to see titles die out due to lack of a male heir. It is highly unlikely that any future heriditary titles will be created outside of the royal family. So rather than see the titles die I would prefer that it could be inherited by a daughter. Certainly there is no reason to believe that a woman is less able or worthy than a man.

[Iluvbertie]

I think that the most outrageous example of the inequity of the situation is Princess Beatice. She is able to inherit the throne but not her father's title of York simply because she is the wrong gender.

[Furienna]

Yeah, that is a bit weird.

[NGalitzine]

What benefit to society is there for hereditary peerages to continue if the male line becomes extinct. I cannot see any imperative to re-create all of their patents in order to continue with the peerage.

[Al_bina]

Marquess of Northampton battling his latest spouse over £25m fortune amid secret lover claims | Mail Online

[MAfan]

Michael Abney-Hastings, 14th Earl of Loudoun, passed away on 30 June 2012 at Jerilderie, New South Wales, Australia. He was 69 year old.

He was born on 22 July 1942, the son of Captain Walter Strickland Lord and his wife Barbara Abney-Hastings, the 13th Countess of Loudoun.
He was married since 1969 to Noeline Margaret McCormick, by whom he had two sons and two daughters.
In 2002, at the death of his mother, he succeeded her as 14th Earl of Loudoun.
In 2004 Channel 4 documentary "Britain’s Real Monarch" arose the claim that King Edward IV of England was conceived illegitimately and therefore he and his descendants weren't the rightful English sovereigns; instead, the Earl of Lousoun - as the direct descendant of George Plantagenet, 1st Duke of Clarence - should be the rightful King. This claim, however, is disputed among historians, and neither the 14th Earl of Loudoun took it seriously.


He is survived by his wife and their children; his eldest son, Simon Michael Abney-Hastings (Lord Mauchline), succeeds him as 15th Earl of Loudoun.

Rightful king dies - Local News - News - General - The Daily Advertiser
Peerage News: 14th Earl of Loudoun (1942-2012)

[MAfan]

Another obituary of the late Earl of Loudon, from the Telegraph:
The Earl of Loudoun - Telegraph

[MAfan]

Rosamond, Countess of Cardigan, née Winkley, passed away on 4 July 2012 aged 63. She has been suffering of pancreatic cancer for 6 months.

She was born in 1948, and married in 1980 to David Brudenell-Bruce, Earl of Cardigan (son and heir of the 8th Marquess of Ailesbur). They became parents of two children; their marriage ended in divorce in 2009.
She is survived by her two children, Thomas (Viscount Savernake) and Lady Catherine (best known as Bo Bruce).

Peerage News: Rosamond Countess of Cardigan dies aged 63
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/new...dies__aged_63/