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  #841  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:50 AM
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There has been no need to change that particular stipulation because those actually close to the throne understand. Those who it's affected are significantly away from being a Monarch.
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  #842  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:36 PM
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Hi,

When this story came out last Thursday, an American journalist assessed the situation and surmised that despite any decision made now nothing would occur regarding William's and Catherine's child (boy or girl) for nearly 50 years.

We still have to go through the reigns of The Queen, Prince Charles and Prince William himself; and the child may not succeed for another 5 decades....

As far as religion is concerned, that may not be resolved until an Heir/Spare wants to marry a Catholic

Larry
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  #843  
Old 10-19-2011, 12:25 AM
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If that's the view that's to be taken by many, then nothing will ever change.

That there's another 50 or so years to get through should not be used as a deterrent to ammend this Act and bring it into the 21st century reflecting both modern and ethical expectations.
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  #844  
Old 11-27-2011, 03:15 AM
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Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: The 'rightful heir' to the Scottish throne
A GERMAN who became a princess after marrying into the little-known Liechtenstein royal family would lay claim to being Scotland's next rightful hereditary queen if laws banning Catholics on the throne were repealed.
Interior design enthusiast Sophie Elisabeth Marie Gabrielle, 44, will one day rule over the tiny European principality following a fairytale wedding to the country's Prince Alois in 1993.
But her family tree shows she is also part of the direct lineage of the House of Stuart, which was kept off the combined thrones of England and Scotland in the late 17th century then effectively ousted by the 1701 Act of Settlement that outlawed Catholic monarchs.
Last week the Scottish Parliament debated repealing the 310-year-old legislation, which eventually led to the Jacobite Uprisings, amid widespread belief it is now outdated and discriminatory on sectarian grounds.
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  #845  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:24 PM
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Lady Amelia Windsor

Wikepedia states that Lady Amelia Windsor converted to Roman Catholicism in January 2012, although it is not cited anywhere. I can't find anything to back this up. Does anyone know if this is true and therefore Lady Amelia is out of the line of succession to the throne?
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  #846  
Old 03-27-2012, 10:40 PM
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[QUOTE=Kasumi;1341538]Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: The 'rightful heir' to the Scottish throne/QUOTE]This is such a fascinating story, Kasumi, thank you for posting.
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  #847  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Leaside View Post
Wikepedia states that Lady Amelia Windsor converted to Roman Catholicism in January 2012, although it is not cited anywhere. I can't find anything to back this up. Does anyone know if this is true and therefore Lady Amelia is out of the line of succession to the throne?
I don't know if Lady Amelia has converted, but I know that I've been burned by Wikipedia in the past. I see the actual article is unprotected, meaning that anyone can edit it. Looking at the revision history, it appears that an unregistered user added the line about her conversion on February 10, 2012. A registered user then flagged that line to clarify that a citation is needed.

Lady Amelia also still appears on the line of succession on the official British monarchy web site, so I'd take what Wikipedia says with a grain of salt.
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  #848  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:42 AM
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This is such a fascinating story, Kasumi, thank you for posting.
Unfortunately it's not true. The lady did not become a princess on her marriage, she was born one: HRH Sophie, Princess of Bavaria, Duchess in Bavaria. She is the eldest niece of the current Head of the House of Wittelsbach, Duke Francis, who is the current Jacobite "king" of England and Scotland. As Francis has no children, his brother Max, father of the princess Sophie, will follow him one day. As Max only has daughters, the Jacobite claim will stay with Sophie and thus change into the House of Liechtenstein, while the Headship of the Royal House of Bavaria will be inherited by a cadet branch of the family.

But first Francis and Max have to be buried, before Sophie could lay claim to the Crowns of the Stuarts and the Bavarians have never sought to make good on this claim... So - a no story.
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  #849  
Old 03-28-2012, 02:56 AM
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Also, I thought changes to the law of succession regarding Catholics only allowed the monarch to be married to a Catholic, not to become one himself or herself.
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  #850  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Leaside View Post
Wikepedia states that Lady Amelia Windsor converted to Roman Catholicism in January 2012, although it is not cited anywhere. I can't find anything to back this up. Does anyone know if this is true and therefore Lady Amelia is out of the line of succession to the throne?
I do not know whether the statement is accurate, but if it is, then Lady Amelia is no longer in the Line of Succession.
Firstly, the rules the proposed changes haven't been adopted yet. And secondly, the changes only deal with marriages to Catholics; those in the Line of Succession still cannot be Catholics or convert without losing their place.

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Also, I thought changes to the law of succession regarding Catholics only allowed the monarch to be married to a Catholic, not to become one himself or herself.
That is correct.
While the proposed changes allow marriages to Catholics for all those in the Line of Succession, children of such couple cannot be raised in Catholic faith. Converting to Catholicism would automatically remove someone from the Line of Succession. In addition, the Monarch must always belong to the Church of England.
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  #851  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:51 AM
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And these changes are still probably some years away from being enacted as there are 15 other realms who have to pass the legislation (and possibly even some of the states and/or provinces of Australia or Canada depending on their own constitutions). These governments also have other issues to deal with so it is possible that nothing will happen until the necessity arises for something to happen e.g. William has a daughter and then a son. If that doesn't happen then it can be put on the back burner for another generation.
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  #852  
Old 08-20-2012, 07:45 PM
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Why Sophia, not Charles Louis?

It seems to me that despite various exceptional and arbitrary laws being passed relating to the succession, from Henry VII onwards the inheritance of the throne passes largely as it would have under male-preference primogeniture, with the proviso that papists are excluded from the late 17th century onward.
It passed to Henry VIII and his heirs in a "regular" fashion, and then to Margaret's heir James I.
Charles was James I's eldest surviving son, and (setting aside the fact that he was executed and there was a period without a king), Charles II's succession was also regular. Charles II having no legitimate heir, his brother James II succeeded, and was formally taken to have abdicated when he fled, but in a real sense was ejected from the throne due to his Catholicism. I suppose it is questionable whether his infant son James could be said to have been a Catholic but it was clear that he would be raised one, so we can consider his exclusion to have been "regular" within the realm of this exercise.
Protestant Mary succeeds, and here is the first irregularity: her cousin William is made king as her husband. When Mary dies, Anne should (under Catholic-excluding male-preference primogeniture, I'll call it CEMPP for short) be next followed by William, but laws were passed establishing that William is higher in the chain than Anne. William predeceases Anne so that "anomaly" doesn't have any long-lasting effects in terms of the succession.

With Anne's death, the line from Charles I is exhausted. Under CEMPP you'd expect that Elisabeth's heirs would be looked at next and the Act of Settlement had indeed established that her descendant Electress Sophia of Hanover (and her heirs) would follow Anne and her heirs...

But why Sophia? Elisabeth's eldest son who reached adulthood was Charles Louis, Elector Palatine. At the time of the Act of Succession, and at the time Anne died, he still had surviving non-Catholic heirs. Why did the legislators choose Sophia?
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  #853  
Old 08-20-2012, 08:11 PM
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Interesting question, Daz_Voz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daz_Voz View Post
Protestant Mary succeeds, and here is the first irregularity: her cousin William is made king as her husband. When Mary dies, Anne should (under Catholic-excluding male-preference primogeniture, I'll call it CEMPP for short) be next followed by William, but laws were passed establishing that William is higher in the chain than Anne. William predeceases Anne so that "anomaly" doesn't have any long-lasting effects in terms of the succession.
William of Orange was not "higher" in the Line of Succession than Anne - he was selected as a co-regnant Monarch alongside Mary II. Because the situation was quite unusual for England and Scotland (neither had co-regnant Monarchs before), it was agreed that the one who outlives his/her spouse would continue to reign until his/her death. The succession line was established in the following way:

- William III and Mary II's children -> Children Mary II could have from subsequent marriage(s) -> Princess Anne and her descendants -> Children William III could have from a subsequent marriage

Based on that succession, it is apparent Anne's personal rights were better than those of William (although he, as the Sovereign, obviously outranked Anne).

Quote:
But why Sophia? Elisabeth's eldest son who reached adulthood was Charles Louis, Elector Palatine. At the time of the Act of Succession, and at the time Anne died, he still had surviving non-Catholic heirs. Why did the legislators choose Sophia?
That is not entirely accurate. Charles Louis I had 3 children from his first (and in the eyes of many, the only legitimate) marriage:
- Charles II, Elector of Palatine who had indeed been a Protestant but died in 1685 without issue.
- Elizabeth Charlotte, Princess Palatine was married to a Catholic, Philippe I, Duke of Orleans, and their children were raised in Catholic faith.
- Friedrich died the day after he was born, in 1653.

Charles Louis' second marriage to Marie Luise von Degenfeld was bigamous (since his divorce from Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel was unilateral and not recognised by most authorities): their 13 children had no succession rights in Palatine, let alone Britain. Needless to say, Charles Louis' third marriage to Elisabeth Hollander von Bernau, also conducted during the lifetime of Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel, was not recognised either.

Charles Louis's children from his second or third marriages would have never been considered as potential heirs to the British Throne, and the descendants of Elizabeth Charlotte were Catholic.
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  #854  
Old 08-21-2012, 06:34 AM
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Ah, I wasn't aware of the legitimacy issues surrounding the later marriages of Charles Louis. Thanks for all this information.
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  #855  
Old 08-21-2012, 07:37 AM
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Yes, thank you. I knew there were 'issues' round some of Elizabeth's descendants, but wasn't quite sure what and where. This clarifies it!

I think a lot of people believe that, for some inexplicable reason, after Queen Anne's death without direct heirs, the throne just arbitrarily jumped to the House of Hannover. I always feel that this view might have been 'solved' if Queen Anne had died a year earlier, or if Sophia (widow of the Elector of Hannover and mother of the future George I) had lived a year longer. Then it would be obvious, when Sophia succeded to the British throne, that there was a Stewart line of inheritance still in operation.
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  #856  
Old 08-21-2012, 12:28 PM
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You are welcome.
Genealogy is one of hobbies and I'm always ready to provide long, detailed and horribly boring charts.

Recently, there was a discussion in George I thread about all the people who would have been ahead of George of Hanover (George I) at the time of Queen Anne's death, had the Act of Settlement not been passed. We counted 58 people, all of whom were disqualified for various reasons (mainly because they were Catholics themselves, or were married to ones). Here is that list:

1. James, Prince of Wales (The Old Pretender)
2. Anne Marie of Orleans (daughter of Henrietta of England, daughter of Charles I)
3. Victor Amadeus, Prince of Piedmont (son of Anne Marie of Orleans)
4. Charles Emmanuel III of Savoy (second son of Anne Marie of Orleans)
5. Prince Emanuele Philibert of Savoy (third son of Anne Marie of Orleans)
6. Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate (daughter of Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine and granddaughter of Elizabeth Stuart - James I's elder daughter)
7. Philippe Charles of Orleans (the son of Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate)
8. Louis d'Orléans (son of Philippe Charles of Orleans)
9. Marie Louise Elisabeth of Orleans (daughter of Philippe Charles of Orleans)
10. Louise Adelaide of Orleans (daughter of Philippe Charles of Orleans)
11. Charlotte Aglae of Orleans (daughter of Philippe Charles of Orleans)
12. Louise Elisabeth of Orleans (daughter of Philippe Charles of Orleans)
13. Elisabeth Charlotte of Orleans (daughter of Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate)
14. Leopold Clement, Hereditary Prince of Lorraine (son of Elisabeth Charlotte of Orleans)
15. Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor (son of Elisabeth Charlotte of Orleans)
16. Charles Alexander of Lorraine (son of Elisabeth Charlotte of Orleans)
17. Elisabeth Therese of Lorraine (daughter of Elisabeth Charlotte of Orleans)
18. Anne Charlotte of Lorraine (daughter of Elisabeth Charlotte of Orleans)
19. Lady Frederica Schomberg (daughter of Caroline von der Pfalz, daughter of Karl I Ludwig von der Pfalz, son of Elizabeth Stuart - James I's daughter)
20. Lady Caroline Darcy (daughter of Lady Frederica Schomberg)
21. Lady Maria Schomberg (daughter of Caroline Elisabeth)
22. Louise von der Pfalz (daughter of Karl I Ludwig von der Pfalz, son of Elizabeth Stuart - James I's daughter)
23. Ludwig Otto of Salm (son of Luise Marie von Simmern, daughter of Edward, Count Palatine of Simmern, son of Elizabeth Stuart - James I's daughter)
24. Dorothea Franziska , Princess of Salm (daughter of Ludwig Otto of Salm)
25. Louise of Salm (daughter of Luise Marie von Simmern, daughter of Edward, Count Palatine of Simmern, son of Elizabeth Stuart - James I's daughter)
26. A son of Louise of Salm
27. A daughter of Louise of Salm
28. Louise Apollonia (daughter of Luise Marie von Simmern)
29. Eleanor Christina (daughter of Luise Marie von Simmern)
30. Anne Henriette, Princess of Conde (daughter of Edward, Count Palatine of Simmern, son of Elizabeth Stuart - James I's daughter)
31. Louis Henri, Duke of Bourbon (son of Louis, Prince of Conde, the son of Anne Henriette, Princess of Conde)
32. Charles, Count of Charolais (son of Louis, Prince of Conde)
33. Louis, Count of Clermont (son of Louis, Prince of Conde)
34. Marie Anne de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Conde (daughter of Louis, Prince of Conde)
35. Louise Elisabeth de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Bourbon (daughter of Louis, Prince of Conde)
36. Louise Anne de Bourbon (daughter of Louis, Prince of Conde)
37. Marie Anne de Bourbon (daughter of Louis, Prince of Conde)
38. Henriette Louise de Bourbon (daughter of Louis, Prince of Conde)
39. Elisabeth Alexandrine de Bourbon (daughter of Louis, Prince of Conde)
40. Marie Therese de Bourbon (daughter of Anne Henriette, Princess of Conde)
41. Louis Armand de Bourbon (son of Marie Therese de Bourbon)
42. Marie Anne de Bourbon (daughter of Marie Therese de Bourbon)
43. Louise Adelaide de Bourbon (daughter of Marie Therese de Bourbon)
44. Louise Benedicte de Bourbon (daughter of Anne Henriette, Princess of Conde)
45. Louis Auguste de Bourbon, Prince of Dombes (son of Louise Benedicte de Bourbon)
46. Louis Charles de Bourbon, Count of Eu (son of Louise Benedicte de Bourbon)
47. Louise Francoise de Bourbon, Mademoiselle du Maine (daughter of Louise Benedicte de Bourbon)
48. Marie Anne de Bourbon (daughter of Anne Henriette, Princess of Conde)
49. Benedicta Henrietta (daughter of Edward, Count Palatine of Simmern)
50. Francesco d'Este (son of Duchess Charlotte of Brunswick-Luneburg, daughter of Benedicta Henrietta)
51. Gian Federico d'Este (son of Duchess Charlotte of Brunswick-Luneburg)
52. Benedetta Maria d'Este (daughter of Duchess Charlotte of Brunswick-Luneburg)
53. Amalia Giuseppina d'Este (daughter of Duchess Charlotte of Brunswick-Luneburg)
54. Enrichetta d'Este (daughter of Duchess Charlotte of Brunswick-Luneburg)
55. Henriette Maria of Brunswick-Luneburg (daughter of Edward, Count Palatine of Simmern)
56. Wilhelmine Amalia of Brunswick-Luneburg (daughter of Edward, Count Palatine of Simmern)
57. Maria Josepha of Austria (daughter of Wilhelmine Amalia of Brunswick-Luneburg)
58. Maria Amalia of Austria (daughter of Wilhelmine Amalia of Brunswick-Luneburg)
59. George I of Great Britain

Sophia of Hanover simply ticked all the boxes; besides, she had arguably the strongest ties to Britain amongst the possible pretenders.
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  #857  
Old 08-21-2012, 03:16 PM
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Lol!
That must have been quite some homework for the courtiers to figure out at the time.
Sorting out the suitability of the people branch by branch.
And no internet to help them. ;-)
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  #858  
Old 08-21-2012, 04:24 PM
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Lol!
That must have been quite some homework for the courtiers to figure out at the time.
Sorting out the suitability of the people branch by branch.
And no internet to help them. ;-)
:-) maybe they had a huge family-tree tapestry to keep track and when someone married a catholic they were 'crochet' over :-)
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  #859  
Old 08-21-2012, 04:30 PM
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One should not forget that for most people who were in line before Sophia the throne of the Uk was nothing they really wanted. It was different to eg France, where Henri IV. changed his faith in order to become the next king. At that time France was still a country with absolutistic and centralistic tendencies, while the UK had not only had a sort of shared reign between king and his lords but had seen a revolution and the killing of an anointed king recently. So the throne of the Uk was not that desired by most potential heirs and of course the peers of the Uk knew that, so they were equally put off by most choices.

With the Welfs of Hanover it was a different thing: the family had just managed successfully to bring the inheritance from different lines of their house together in one hand. They had become a real force in Germany, thus offering the potential to back-up British politics with German influence against France which supported the Stuart Pretenders. In addition German powers including the Habsburg emperors were interested in enhancing the Hanoveran power against France, but up-starting Prussia as well. The Bavarian Wittelsbachs OTOH had acquired the honour of being the premier prince elector from their Palatinian cousins and were certainly not interested in seeing the Stuart-inheritance come into hands that had a claim to the restoration of the Premier Electorship back to the Palatinate.

So there were a lot of reasons why things happened as they did. And they had not necessarily anything to do with being in line according to whatever Act of Succession.
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  #860  
Old 08-21-2012, 08:15 PM
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Given all of this, I think we can say that despite any amount of arbitrary legislation and goalpost shifting by parliaments and monarchs over the past 500 years ...

the succession to the English/British throne has, since Henry VII, gone exactly as it would have under male-preference primogeniture (with Papists banned from the late 17th century onward, EXCEPT for the brief anomaly of King William, which did not have enduring effects.
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