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  #361  
Old 03-21-2007, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
So for example (famous words around here!)
Say Lord Nicholas Windsor (who was raised Protestant and therefore in the line of succession until his Catholic conversion) decides to revert to Church of England (I know, unlikely given his recent Catholic marriage), he would very much not be "restored" to his place in the succession line.
Once you're off the list, that's it.

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But as he is "out", if after his theoretical reconversion, he raises his children as Protestants, would they be in the line of succession?
They remain in line until if and when they "profess the Popish religion" (quoting the Act of Settlement).

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Princess Michael was married as a Catholic but raised her children Protestant (though at least one of her sons and a couple grandchildren have since converted to Catholicism) so they were in line until they were old enough to take themselves out. Lord Nicholas is very likely to raise his children Catholic as he cares little for their "place" but the Kents had a different idea--one I'm trying to determine as more legally sound given the Royal restrictions.
You've mixed up Princess Michael of Kent, Catholic with two Protestant children, and the Duchess of Kent. The Duchess converted to Catholicism and was followed by her son Lord Nicholas Windsor and her grandson Baron Downpatrick.
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  #362  
Old 03-21-2007, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Well, I don't know about "converted"; chances are he was raised Catholic all along on account of his Catholic mother, but he was formally received into the Church (whatever that means - I assume he was confirmed or something) a couple of years ago. That would have made him 15, which seems about the right age for confirmation.
When someone is "received into the Church" it means they have converted from another faith.

Confirmation is usually administered at 10 but in many places it is given when a child makes their First Communion at 7.
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  #363  
Old 03-21-2007, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
They remain in line until if and when they "profess the Popish religion" (quoting the Act of Settlement).
I would guess (I'm not sure about the British law here) that it has to do with the coming of age in things religiously in Britain. Here in Germany, it's at age 14 that you are considered an adult on choosing your religion. I could imagine that after that you are considered to conciously "profess" to a religion. And if that's catholizism, you're out.

BTW - could Charles convert to greek-orthodox after his succession? Or would he have to give up the throne then?
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  #364  
Old 03-21-2007, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by kelly9480
It would be very hard to change the Act simply because all 16 realms would have to agree to a change.
Not necessarily so, Some historians have pointed out that the act is not a British law as it was passed by an English parliament in 1701. As this was six years before the union they say it is not law in Scotland and certainly not in the other realms. As England doesn't have a parliament it would be up to the U.K. parliament to abolish it.
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  #365  
Old 03-21-2007, 04:47 PM
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When the scots signed up to the act of union, they signed up to the British law concerning the act. They certainly did not make any objections concerning the act of succession.

The act states that any alteration 'requires the assent as well of the Parliaments of all the Dominions as of the Parliament of the United Kingdom'.

Can you give links to the relevent articles or the names of the 'some historians'
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  #366  
Old 03-21-2007, 06:20 PM
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I thought the Act of Succession was passed before the Act joining the Union of Great Britain. It would have to be to grant Queen Anne precedence over her half-brother in the succession.

What Scottish parties gave their assent to the Union of Great Britain act? Did the Scottish parliament pass the Act?
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  #367  
Old 03-21-2007, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I thought the Act of Succession was passed before the Act joining the Union of Great Britain. It would have to be to grant Queen Anne precedence over her half-brother in the succession.

What Scottish parties gave their assent to the Union of Great Britain act? Did the Scottish parliament pass the Act?
You are as usual right! The Act of Settlement was passed in 1700, the Act of Union was passed in 1706.
The Scottish parliament of the time passed the Act of Union.
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  #368  
Old 03-22-2007, 03:36 AM
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Warren--thanks for the clarification. If I ever write a novel about Royalty, I know right where to check my research!


In what instances are Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland considered separate from England as far as everyone needing to be in agreement for an act to be passed as law in all the UK?
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  #369  
Old 03-27-2007, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suonymona
Warren--thanks for the clarification. If I ever write a novel about Royalty, I know right where to check my research!


In what instances are Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland considered separate from England as far as everyone needing to be in agreement for an act to be passed as law in all the UK?
The Parliament of the United Kingdom has supremacy over the entire United Kingdom, and any Act of Parliament can be applied to England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Since devolution, this is not always the case, but the regional assemblies only have as much power as the Parliament in Westminster allows them to have. Parliament can take away any of that power or overrule them as they see fit.
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  #370  
Old 03-31-2007, 09:42 AM
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Posts relating to succession issues and Australia have been moved to The Queen and Australia thread.
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  #371  
Old 04-24-2007, 03:24 PM
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here is a link to the line of succession: line: Definition, Synonyms and Much More from Answers.com
Primogenture is use when it comes to the British line of succession allow both males and females in line.
Male primogeture only allows males meaning no females are included in line of succseion.
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  #372  
Old 08-04-2007, 10:07 PM
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Wasn't there some discussion about the EU Parliament or some other multi-national body having some say over the Act of Settlement? I believe I remember the gist of it was that it was religiously discriminatory, and counter to EU civil rights laws?

If that's true, then I wonder if the Phillips-Kelly wedding will get that pot brought forward on the stovetop again?
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  #373  
Old 08-04-2007, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bluffton View Post
Wasn't there some discussion about the EU Parliament or some other multi-national body having some say over the Act of Settlement? I believe I remember the gist of it was that it was religiously discriminatory, and counter to EU civil rights laws?

If that's true, then I wonder if the Phillips-Kelly wedding will get that pot brought forward on the stovetop again?
It would only be religious discrimination if a Catholic or person wed to a Catholic was actually denied the throne. As that hasn't happened, and won't happen for some time to come, there is no grounds for any investigation or lawsuit.
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  #374  
Old 08-04-2007, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
It would only be religious discrimination if a Catholic or person wed to a Catholic was actually denied the throne. As that hasn't happened, and won't happen for some time to come, there is no grounds for any investigation or lawsuit.
I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. The entire point of the Act of Settlement seems to me to protect against what may happen -- that a person with a remote chance of becoming monarch may actually become the monarch.

If your argument is true, then why aren't the provisions (no Catholics; no Catholic spouses) of the Act of Settlement limited only to the top five or ten potential candidates? If I recall, even the most remote candidates are excluded (think Juan Carlos of Spain as a descendant of Queen Victoria, who is of course Catholic).

The Act of Settlement is unfortunately the vestige of a less tolerant time, designed to shore up the institutional validity of the Church of England as a state church and the sovereign as its head.

Please accept my apologies if I have inadvertently offended anyone.
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  #375  
Old 08-05-2007, 12:23 AM
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Interesting opinion article in the Telegraph about Peter's & Autumn's engagement and whether it will have an effect on the Act of Settlement:

Peter's plight must act as a trigger for reform - Telegraph
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  #376  
Old 08-05-2007, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bluffton View Post
Is it too hopeful to expect that the Parliament will change the Act of Settlement -- if I am not mistaken, isn't Peter the closest heir in recent times to be marrying a Catholic?
I hope Parliament will repeal or amend this outdated act. I am sure that most British people would be strongly in favor. I mean, how can anyone say this is reasonable and relevant to the times? The reasons the act was created no longer apply. It must be just laziness or preoccupation that kept it around this long. Only, I suppose Prince Michael of Kent might be a little miffed that he had to surrender his, however lowly, right to the succession, while Peter may get his cake and eat it too. Nah.... what am I saying? As if either of them cares, knowing they hardly have any chance at all of being in the 'top job'. Just out of curiosity, say the law is repealed, would it mean the succession rights of people like Prince Michael to be reinstated?
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  #377  
Old 08-05-2007, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bluffton View Post
Does anyone know if they will have a Catholic, Anglican, or combination Catholic-Anglican wedding (with priests from both faiths)?

Is it too hopeful to expect that the Parliament will change the Act of Settlement -- if I am not mistaken, isn't Peter the closest heir in recent times to be marrying a Catholic?
From what I understand the Catholic church does not let other religions at the alter during the Mass. Normally, Catholics are required to have their marriage blessed by the Catholic Church. This normally means a wedding in the Catholic Church, and in the case of mixed marriages, the Church will allow people to have a non mass wedding, with mainly Scripture verses and songs.

However, if there is a good reason, a Catholic can have a non Catholic ceremony. Let's say for example your spouse's father is a pastor and wants to marry the couple. However, then the Catholic would have to get a dispensation from his/her bishop. Also, the Catholic and his/her fiance would be required to still attend a Pre-cana class, and sign documents pertaining to birth control/ and the fact that the Catholic has a responsibilty to train their child in their faith...
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  #378  
Old 08-05-2007, 02:23 AM
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Unless someone is actually denied something, then they have not been discriminated against. You cannot be discriminated against unless you are prevented from doing something that you would have been permitted to do but for the reason of their discrimination.

If Peter Phillips marries a Catholic, his status does not change. The "line of succession" is not a recognized feature of the law, but rather a convenient way of looking at who moves up when who dies, so his lack of inclusion in it cannot constitute discrimination. The law only recognizes the heir of the Electress Sophia of Hanover, with the further provisions that catholics and those who marry them may not be the said heir. If he were actually passed up, he would have been denied that status of monarch solely on the grounds of his spouse's faith, which would then constitute religious discrimination. Whether such discrimination violates EU law and whether the EU can actually do anything about it is another matter, a very complicated one which I know very little about.

The provisions cannot be limited to the "top five or ten potential candidates" because there is always a chance that they will die. As the Act of Settlement respects only the office of monarch, it does not change the status of any other persons.
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  #379  
Old 08-05-2007, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bluffton View Post
The Act of Settlement is unfortunately the vestige of a less tolerant time, designed to shore up the institutional validity of the Church of England as a state church and the sovereign as its head.
I think it much more nakedly political than merely propping up the Church of England. The Act gave the Parliament the power to determine the succession to the Crown, and was designed to ensure the Protestant Succession and deny the descendants of the deposed James II any legal right to the Crown. The Parliament considered the Electress Sophia of Hanover the "next best" successor to Queen Anne, and all now flows from her.
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  #380  
Old 08-05-2007, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
From what I understand the Catholic church does not let other religions at the alter during the Mass. Normally, Catholics are required to have their marriage blessed by the Catholic Church. This normally means a wedding in the Catholic Church, and in the case of mixed marriages, the Church will allow people to have a non mass wedding, with mainly Scripture verses and songs.

However, if there is a good reason, a Catholic can have a non Catholic ceremony. Let's say for example your spouse's father is a pastor and wants to marry the couple. However, then the Catholic would have to get a dispensation from his/her bishop. Also, the Catholic and his/her fiance would be required to still attend a Pre-cana class, and sign documents pertaining to birth control/ and the fact that the Catholic has a responsibilty to train their child in their faith...
My husband and I were a mixed faith couple at the time of our marriage. We would not have had a valid marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church had a Roman Catholic priest or permanent deacon not been present as a witness (the actual officiant was a Protestant minister). The dispensation is to allow marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic:
"Without the express permission of the competent authority, marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons, one of whom was baptized in the catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act, the other of whom belongs to a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the catholic Church."Canon 1124 of the Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church.

My understanding is that unless there is a Catholic priest or deacon present to witness in an official role, the Church takes the view that no valid marriage took place:

"Can. 1127 ▀1 The provisions of can. 1108 are to be observed in regard
to the form to be used in a mixed marriage."
"Canon 1108: Only those marriages are valid which are contracted in the presence of the local Ordinary or parish priest or of the priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who, in the presence of two witnesses, assists, in accordance however with the rules set out in the following canons, and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in canon 144, 1112 ▀1, 1116 and 1127 ▀2é3.

▀2 Only that person who, being present, asks the contracting parties to manifest their consent and in the name of the Church receives it, is understood to assist at a marriage."

So in other words, the way I understand it, if there is not a Catholic priest or deacon involved in this wedding, and assuming Autumn does not renounce her Catholic faith, Autumn would not be validly married in the eyes of the Catholic Church because of a defect in the form of the marriage (how they got married).

It is true that in mixed marriages, the Catholic spouse is expected to raise the children Catholic, and that the non-Catholic spouse is not to impede those efforts.

The fact that the Act of Settlement may tempt someone to give up their faith is just terrible.
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