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  #81  
Old 12-19-2012, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
This 6-persons-next-in-line thing is not logical at all. It means that, after the Duke of Cambridge's child is born, Princess Beatrice of York will be excluded if she marries without a permission regardless of who her spouse is, while her younger sister will be able to marry a drug lord and remain in the line (provided that Eugenie's marriage takes place before Beatrice's). In fact, in that scenario, Princess Eugenie of York and her children sired by a drug lord would become closer to the throne.

I wonder where they got that idea from. No other monarchy has marriage approval requirements like that. Normally, all people in line have to obtain consent.
This coalition government in Britain makes it up as they go along. I think there are at least a couple of clauses or sections that will have to be re-written
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  #82  
Old 12-19-2012, 06:52 PM
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Kotroman, your hypothetical scenario, while accurate, is unlikely, IMO. I can't imagine consent being withheld if Beatrice wants to marry any reasonably suitable person, and I have Dave in mind here. And would Eugenie really be likely to marry a drug lord? Possible, yes, but probable, no. Considering the hot house environment in which these people are reared, such things are unlikely for those so close to the throne, and if one of them really does go off on a mad frolic of their own and marry someone totally unsuitable, the rules can always be changed.

I think it's a good idea to restrict the number of people who have to seek permission to marry. Any figure selected is going to be arbitrary.
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  #83  
Old 12-19-2012, 07:09 PM
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But legislators are supposed to take every possibility into consideration. They shouldn't think what's likely and what's not when the future of the state is in question. In my scenario, Beatrice doesn't seek consent at all and gets married fully aware that she is forfeiting her rights, while her sister, who had recently married a drug lord, gets closer to the throne.

I don't see why the number of people who have to seek consent should be restricted. If approving the marriages is too much of a hassle, then limit the line of succession. Cut people out. It's better than making it possible, however unlikely, that someone unsuitable ascends the thrones.
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  #84  
Old 12-19-2012, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
But legislators are supposed to take every possibility into consideration. They shouldn't think what's likely and what's not when the future of the state is in question. In my scenario, Beatrice doesn't seek consent at all and gets married fully aware that she is forfeiting her rights, while her sister, who had recently married a drug lord, gets closer to the throne.

I don't see why the number of people who have to seek consent should be restricted. If approving the marriages is too much of a hassle, then limit the line of succession. Cut people out. It's better than making it possible, however unlikely, that someone unsuitable ascends the thrones.
If its not restricted you end up with an unwieldy situation not unlike the current one where persons so far down the Order of Succession that they are irrelevant still have to seek the Queens permission.

Under the current system Prince Ernst of Hanover had to request permission yet the prospects of him succeeding are negligible. Likewise, Lord Nicholas Windsor still needed permission to marry even though he cannot succeed for religious reasons.

Even restricting the order of succession would make no difference. In effect the only people the succession affects now are Charles, William and Harry (until William's children come of age) yet there is a long list of persons in the order. There would still be some arbitrary cut off as someone slips further down the list when children are born to those ahead of them.

When the Queen succeeded Princess Anne was second in line and would have been in any order if succession. Even had equal primogeniture applied she would now be about to slip to 5th and by the time her brother inherits would probably be lower. When should she no longer be in the order of succession?
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  #85  
Old 12-20-2012, 06:49 AM
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The new law will limit the line of succession anyway. Not all descendants of Electress Sophia of Hanover will be in line anymore.

The reason people very far down the line still have to seek consent is that the lack of consent renders their marriage completely non-existent, thus disabling their spouses and/or children from using/inheriting their titles and property and rendering their children illegitimate. Ernest applied for permission in order to faciliate his and Caroline's children's claim to inheritance of any property he may have in the UK.

Under new law, the lack of consent would remove the person ad his/her descendants from the line, but the marriage itself would be valid. Thus, someone very far down the line wouldn't have to seek consent at all; they could just marry and say goodybe to the 0.00001% chances they had of succeeding to the throne.

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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
When should she no longer be in the order of succession?
How about once William's king? In Norway and Monaco, the line of succession is limited to the reigning monarch's descendants and siblings and descendants of the reigning monarch's siblings. In the Netherlands, this is even more complex but perhaps better: the limit is three degrees of kinship from the reigning monarch. If such system were to be adopted, Anne would remain in line after William's accession but her descendants would drop out and would only gain succession rights if Anne were to somehow become Queen Anne II. That said, there are a number of solutions better than the 6-people-next-in-line thing.
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  #86  
Old 12-20-2012, 11:52 AM
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I find it funny though, that there are hundreds of people, who have a place in British succession (even though most of them hardly have any chance at all at reaching the throne). Here in Sweden, it's like it is in Norway and Monaco. Only close relatives to the king have a place in the succession. I believe only his three children, his granddaughter and one of his sisters are in line right now.
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  #87  
Old 12-20-2012, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
The new law will limit the line of succession anyway. Not all descendants of Electress Sophia of Hanover will be in line anymore.

As those people currently excluded because they:

a) married a Roman Catholic e.g. Prince Michael of Kent, Prince Ernst of Hanover

b) lower than 6th have married without permission

are going to be back in the line of succession how can you say the new law will limit the line of succession.

It will lengthen it not reduce it.
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  #88  
Old 12-20-2012, 06:03 PM
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That is mostly my understanding as well, bar the consent to the marriage bit.

No provision of the Succession to the Crown Bill excludes any of Sophia's descendants who are currently in the line of succession. And the Catholic clause states that people who have been disqualified for marrying Catholics and are still alive when this clause comes into effect, regardless of when did the marriage occur, would regain their succession right.

I do disagree with your interpretation of the consent of the Sovereign requirement though. Those who married without the Sovereign's consent (regardless of their place in the line of succession) will not be reinstated in the succession line; they will still be excluded from the line of succession. However, while previously those marriages would have also been considered void under the Royal Marriages Act 1772, they (past, present and future marriages) will now be considered legal (among other things, giving full inheritance rights), provided neither party to the marriage was/is 6th in the line of the succession at the time of the marriage.
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  #89  
Old 12-20-2012, 06:55 PM
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If they are being given 'full inheritance rights' how can that not include the right to inherit the throne - the ultimate in inheritance right.

If the situation arises where a child whose ancestor was illegitimate before this act and is now to be made legitimate was to be overlooked for the crown that would very soon be challenged in court.

To say 'your are excluded from the line of succession because your parents didn't seek permission to marry;' but now you can have full inheritance rights to all things - except the throne won't stand up in court.

The first people affected by this would be the Lascelles family with some outside the line of succession to throne and title but now in line for title but still not for throne - won't stand up in court if challenged.

Whether anybody would challenge is a moot point of course.
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  #90  
Old 12-20-2012, 08:30 PM
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When I said "full inheritance rights", I meant properties and (non-royal) titles. Until the Bills is enforced, all marriages conducted without the Sovereign's permission are void. That means, among other things, that children from such marriages are technically illegitimate in the eyes of the British law. That was one of the reason Ernst August of Hanover - who owns substantial estate in Britain - had to seek permission for either of his marriages.

Laws governing succession to the Throne are completely separate and independent, and differ from laws on succession of estate and even peerage titles.
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  #91  
Old 12-20-2012, 09:36 PM
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Children born outside of marriage will still not be able to succeed to either the throne or a peerage even if their parents married at a later date. The bill does provide for the recognition of marriages that happened without royal consent and legitimizes the issue of those marriages but that is a different matter. I don't think the current Viscount Lascelles will be replaced by his elder brother in succession to the throne or the peerage as he was born before his parents married.
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  #92  
Old 12-20-2012, 09:51 PM
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Indeed. children born outside marriage would only be entitled to courtesy styles of younger children, even if they parents marry after they are born.

Right now, all children born from marriages conducted without the Sovereign's consent (obviously, children of those in the line of succession to the British Throne) are considered illegitimate in the eyes of law (Royal Marriages Act 1772). However, if the Bill is passed, then those children whose parents were married prior to their births but without the Sovereign's consent, would automatically be "legitimised", so to speak - but still will not be included in the succession line. In future too, consent is not required for marriages to be valid (other than the first six people in the succession line), but issue of such marriages will still be ineligible to ascend to the Throne.
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  #93  
Old 01-20-2013, 06:53 PM
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BREAKING NEWS: Tomorrow, legislation to end male preference primogeniture in the royal succession will begin its journey through Parliament.

Where to watch:
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Live.aspx
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  #94  
Old 01-20-2013, 06:55 PM
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Now it's journey begins.
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  #95  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:33 PM
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I wonder how long it will take - weeks or years given that it has to pass more than just one parliament.
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  #96  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:40 PM
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Yes, it will be interesting to see how long it takes to finalise the changes. If parliaments want to get legislation passed they can barrel it through with unseemly speed, or it can go back and forth between committees for ages. Time will tell.
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  #97  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:45 PM
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The British parliament, I believe intends on getting it through in a matter of weeks but that is just the first parliament that has to pass it.

If the baby is a boy I can even see some of the other realms delaying for quite some time - no urgency.
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  #98  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:53 PM
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If the baby is a boy I can even see some of the other realms delaying for quite some time - no urgency.
This is why I sincerely hope the child is a girl. If it's a boy it will be put on the back-burner and may never get done.
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  #99  
Old 01-21-2013, 11:56 PM
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Clegg 'modernising out-of-date' royal succession rules:
Royal - ITV News

http://www.parliament.uk/
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  #100  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:46 PM
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Succession to the Crown Bill:
Second Reading Richard Drax

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