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  #681  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:50 PM
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Cranmer: Is David Cameron about to force the Queen to break her Coronation Oath?
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One might hope that she, like George III, would tell her government:
“Where is the power on earth to absolve me from the observance of every sentence of that Oath, particularly the one requiring me to maintain the Protestant Reformed Religion? Was not my family seated on the Throne for that express purpose, and shall I be the first to suffer it to be undermined, perhaps overturned? No, No, I had rather beg my bread from door to door throughout Europe, than consent to any such measure. I can give up my crown and retire from power. I can quit my palace and live in a cottage. I can lay my head on a block and lose my life, but I cannot break my Oath. If I violate that Oath, I am no longer legal Sovereign in this country”.
The shame, of course, is that a Conservative Prime Minister would ever put her in such a position
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  #682  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:50 PM
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Could you explain that DOE? Why must any monarch be linked to the church. If the church is disestablished it would be a move by the national government, and likely supported by the majority of Brits (it is only established in England and not Scotland or Northern Ireland or Wales) and the C of E has rapidly diminishing membership as it is, so why put the blame on a constitutional monarch.
Personally I think it would be a good thing in the 21st century to remove the government of the nation from any involvement with any religion.
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  #683  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Noooo! Bring it on now, so I get to enjoy it! But, apart from my self-interest, I think this gender and religious discrimination needs to be addressed now, not put on the back-burner.
There has been no debate in the UK or in any of the Commonwealth Realms about the marriage to Catholics being allowed for the heir to the Throne. If something as radical as the disestablishment of the Chruch is on the cards then there needs to be a debate.

It is not "addressing" the issue to push through legislation as we are currently doing.

It is also patently obvious that Nick Clegg has no idea of the current constitutional issues being faced by some of the Commonwealth Realms.

You might have your fun now but the chances are that neither you or I will be around when it all goes horribly wrong!
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  #684  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:00 PM
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When this was first raised, I wrote a post about the issues regarding an heir to the throne marrying a Catholic. This does strike at the heart of the Establishment of the Church of England and its links to the Monarchy.
Charles is right to speak out - leaving a potential mess for others to sort out in 60 years time is not his style. Nick Clegg hasn't got all the answers hence his response. What he is saying is the Head of the Church of England asks permission of the Head of the Catholic Church for their child/grandchild not to brought up a Catholic which is against canon law.

I'm not being anti-catholic, I just want to know how it will work.
I was raised Catholic and I too have huge questions about how this will/not work. Anyone who thinks the Vatican will "negotiate" about his has no idea about the base values of the Vatican.

On the other hand, I give any parent who educates their children about all the belief systems of the world a deep bow. It is one tool to give your children to help them avoid blind prejudice. But that's a far cry from marrying into a faith that demands all offspring be raised in that faith.
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  #685  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:03 PM
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I was raised a Catholic too!
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  #686  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:06 PM
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I thought the Catholic Church only required that the Catholic partner in a mixed marriage promise to do their best to raise their children as Catholics and even then only if marrying in an RC service. Haven't they done away with making the non Catholic partner sign a pledge to raise the children as Catholics even when marrying in an RC service? If the potential heir was marrying in an Anglican service why would any of these issues even come up?
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  #687  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:06 PM
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Why this is fabulous news.... fabulous!

If it's a boy, he could marry a Jackie O!
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  #688  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:10 PM
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The religious issue certainly complicates things. I doubt there would be anywhere near as much controversy if it was just about the sexual discrimination. It's a shame it doesn't seem that one can be done without the other.
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  #689  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:10 PM
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Could you explain that DOE? Why must any monarch be linked to the church. If the church is disestablished it would be a move by the national government, and likely supported by the majority of Brits (it is only established in England and not Scotland or Northern Ireland or Wales) and the C of E has rapidly diminishing membership as it is, so why put the blame on a constitutional monarch.
Personally I think it would be a good thing in the 21st century to remove the government of the nation from any involvement with any religion

NGalitzine. my answer is the sovereign is on the throne to protect the faith. AS His late Majesty KIng George III said, this is the reason his family was placed on the throne in the first place.
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  #690  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:18 PM
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Well DOE I don't think we have to live by an 18th century decision in the 21st century. I don't believe the Windsors need the C of E to justify their place on the throne.....that is based on public support which in fact is greater than support for the C of E or any other faith group. The UK and western Europe are largely secular and multi cultural places and having governments involved in the appointment of Bishops or church debates about who can or cannot become a Bishop because of their gender or who can or cannot marry is ridiculous.
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  #691  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
The religious issue certainly complicates things. I doubt there would be anywhere near as much controversy if it was just about the sexual discrimination. It's a shame it doesn't seem that one can be done without the other.
They can be separated, but only if the the proposed Act is amended. There is always a chance that the Lords might send back an amendment
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  #692  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:23 PM
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They can be separated, but only if the the proposed Act is amended. There is always a chance that the Lords might send back an amendment
But are they likely to? I think that to many people the religious issue is the more important one. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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  #693  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well DOE I don't think we have to live by an 18th century decision in the 21st century. I don't believe the Windsors need the C of E to justify their place on the throne.....that is based on public support which in fact is greater than support for the C of E or any other faith group. The UK and western Europe are largely secular and multi cultural places and having governments involved in the appointment of Bishops or church debates about who can or cannot become a Bishop because of their gender or who can or cannot marry is ridiculous.
This is interesting because you've raised something I wanted to ask about. I thought that for many of the royal houses, there was a link to the national/state religion. The governments are secular but ceremonies, crownings, thanksgivings, weddings, christenings, funerals take place in churches/cathedrals.

Have I misunderstood?
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  #694  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I thought the Catholic Church only required that the Catholic partner in a mixed marriage promise to do their best to raise their children as Catholics and even then only if marrying in an RC service. Haven't they done away with making the non Catholic partner sign a pledge to raise the children as Catholics even when marrying in an RC service? If the potential heir was marrying in an Anglican service why would any of these issues even come up?
NGazaline - the real issue is that as a Catholic, if you do not agree, your Catholic Bishop will say that the Catholic partner is living in a state where they may not receive the sacraments. So, no sacrament of reconciliation (confession/forgiveness), a Baptism that is not recognized, no last rights, if needed, and no way to receive weekly communion (the body and blood of Christ, which is not a big deal in other Christian churches, but is huge for Catholics).

It's a really ugly (my word - because I have had family go through this) scenario, where the Catholic partner is in many ways shunned by their faith with enormous consequences for the afterlife of themselves and their child.
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  #695  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
It's a really ugly (my word - because I have had family go through this) scenario, where the Catholic partner is in many ways shunned by their faith with enormous consequences for the afterlife of themselves and their child.
If they feel that strongly about their religion, they have the choice to not marry the non-Catholic person. This is an issue for all the peoples of the world who marry people not of their culture or religion, not just Catholics & Protestants. It's only an issue in the current context because it is only Catholics who are excluded, and I think there are sound reasons, even though it is undoubtedly discriminatory, and that disestablishment is the answer.
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  #696  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
NGazaline - the real issue is that as a Catholic, if you do not agree, your Catholic Bishop will say that the Catholic partner is living in a state where they may not receive the sacraments. So, no sacrament of reconciliation (confession/forgiveness), a Baptism that is not recognized, no last rights, if needed, and no way to receive weekly communion (the body and blood of Christ, which is not a big deal in other Christian churches, but is huge for Catholics).

It's a really ugly (my word - because I have had family go through this) scenario, where the Catholic partner is in many ways shunned by their faith with enormous consequences for the afterlife of themselves and their child.
So, as in so many other areas, the RC Church discriminates against other Christian faiths by not recognizing the marriage of a Catholic person to a non-Catholic if it is performed in another Christian faith, will not recognize the baptism of their child by another Christian faith as valid and will say such a childs "afterlife" is threatened??? How Christian of them.
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  #697  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well DOE I don't think we have to live by an 18th century decision in the 21st century. I don't believe the Windsors need the C of E to justify their place on the throne.....that is based on public support which in fact is greater than support for the C of E or any other faith group. The UK and western Europe are largely secular and multi cultural places and having governments involved in the appointment of Bishops or church debates about who can or cannot become a Bishop because of their gender or who can or cannot marry is ridiculous.
We should abolish the monarch then, because the institution isn't going to attract any new followers because of disestablished.
I am one monarchist that will turn in their 'membership' card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
This is interesting because you've raised something I wanted to ask about. I thought that for many of the royal houses, there was a link to the national/state religion. The governments are secular but ceremonies, crownings, thanksgivings, weddings, christenings, funerals take place in churches/cathedrals.

Have I misunderstood?
Very good point
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  #698  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
This is interesting because you've raised something I wanted to ask about. I thought that for many of the royal houses, there was a link to the national/state religion. The governments are secular but ceremonies, crownings, thanksgivings, weddings, christenings, funerals take place in churches/cathedrals.

Have I misunderstood?
Well it is possible to be married and buried in a religious service without being head of the church. In Catholic countries the monarch is obviously not head of the church since that distinction belongs to a German man living in The Vatican. In Norway the King was until recently Head of the Lutheran Church but that ended when the state Lutheran Church was disestablished. Not sure if Europes other Protestant monarchs are head of their respective churches but doubt it.
Only the British monarch has a coronation. Other European monarchs are not crowned. Most only take an oath of office, usually in front of Parliament. The Installation of the Dutch monarch takes place in a church but it is a non-religious ceremony. The Norwegian monarch, after swearing his oath, has a religious blessing of his reign at a later date.

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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
We should abolish the monarch then, because the institution isn't going to attract any new followers because of disestablished.
I am one monarchist that will turn in their 'membership' card.
You may well be the only person who supports a monarch based on the current fact they are Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I can think of many who believe that particular distinction is a turn off from supporting the monarchy. They might well look at the monarchy in a better light with the religious role eliminated, especially since most of HMs subjects do not share the same faith.
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  #699  
Old 01-08-2013, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
So, as in so many other areas, the RC Church discriminates against other Christian faiths by not recognizing the marriage of a Catholic person to a non-Catholic if it is performed in another Christian faith, will not recognize the baptism of their child by another Christian faith as valid and will say such a childs "afterlife" is threatened??? How Christian of them.
There's a reason the RC Church describes itself as the 'one, true faith'. They believe that anyone who is not in communion with the RCC is basically condemned to hell, whether they're exemplary Anglicans or Presbyterians or whatever. They refuse to see the Protestant churches as 'churches' at all. As far as they're concerned, the Vatican has a complete monopoly on admission to heaven.

The change to the succession would have profound difficulties for a RC mother or father of a future British sovereign. That parent will have to watch their child be brought up in a religion that, as far as RCC teachings are concerned, inevitably means they're damned to an eternity of cohabitation with the devil himself. If nothing else, that would be pretty cruel for a RC parent.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
If they feel that strongly about their religion, they have the choice to not marry the non-Catholic person. This is an issue for all the peoples of the world who marry people not of their culture or religion, not just Catholics & Protestants. It's only an issue in the current context because it is only Catholics who are excluded, and I think there are sound reasons, even though it is undoubtedly discriminatory, and that disestablishment is the answer.
Ah, but then love raises it's ugly head. What is one to do? The logical and faith based choice leads one way and the heart based choice leads another. In today's society, I have known too many people who cannot say "No" to an unwise dip in the sheets, much less to a conflict riddled union. For you Roslyn it is an easy choice, but for others, it is not.
Sorry Mods - back to primogeniture!
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