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  #581  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:33 PM
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Isn't discriminatory to have a law that states only first born children can inherit? Couldn't the second born sue and say their rights are violated on account of not being lucky enough to be first born?
I would love to know where equality legislation ends.
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  #582  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Interesting, Duke-of-Earl. As many of us said when this was first raised, we have knee-jerk politicans pushing through legislation without a clue about how the consitution of the commonwealth works.

In reality, we have as long as it takes because it could be retrospective.

Of course it will be interesting if the Duchess has boy/girl twins. Conspiracy theorists will be in the wings!
One twin has to be born before the other.....so what would be the issue? The first twin would be the eldest.
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  #583  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
One twin has to be born before the other.....so what would be the issue? The first twin would be the eldest.
Exactly - but if she has one of each and the announcemnt is that the boy was born first before the girl, there will be some people out there saying "I bet this is untrue, the girl was born first, etc. etc
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  #584  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Isn't discriminatory to have a law that states only first born children can inherit? Couldn't the second born sue and say their rights are violated on account of not being lucky enough to be first born?
I would love to know where equality legislation ends.
Birth order does not come under of the legislation here.
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  #585  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Exactly - but if she has one of each and the announcemnt is that the boy was born first before the girl, there will be some people out there saying "I bet this is untrue, the girl was born first, etc. etc
Correct. The conspiracy theory buffs will be in 7th heaven. If a girl is taken out first some would say it was because of the proposed changes and wanting a Queen, and if it is a boy first some will say it is because the doctors/palace grey men wanted a future king and not a queen. The DM would have endless made up stories to fill its pages.....truth not being allowed to get in the way of a good story.
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  #586  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
Exactly - but if she has one of each and the announcemnt is that the boy was born first before the girl, there will be some people out there saying "I bet this is untrue, the girl was born first, etc. etc
I don't know about in the UK, but when I had each of my 4 children, there were at least 4 other people there. I would imagine even more medical &/or Allied health staff...do you really think that they could get away with falsifying birth records / medical records of such high profile people?
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  #587  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
Birth order does not come under of the legislation here.
Ummm, isnt birth order exactly what this proposed legislation is about?
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  #588  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Ummm, isnt birth order exactly what this proposed legislation is about?
No, it's gender discrimination. As it stands, if the new baby is a girl, and the next is a boy, the 2nd born (but eldest male child) will inherit ahead of his older sister, for no other reason than that he is male.
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  #589  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Isn't discriminatory to have a law that states only first born children can inherit? Couldn't the second born sue and say their rights are violated on account of not being lucky enough to be first born?
I would love to know where equality legislation ends.
I thought that titles were dependent on the letters patent. These can allow women to inherit a title (ie Countess Mountbatten of Burma) but each one is specific. Can someone more knowledgeable than me confirm this or otherwise?

As far as land and property are concerned, surely an individual can leave their "wealth" however they wish, unless there is an entail which is legally binding which specifies to whom the inheritance is left.
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  #590  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:48 PM
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^^^^^
Its about birth order. Childrens succession right based on order of birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cepe View Post
I thought that titles were dependent on the letters patent. These can allow women to inherit a title (ie Countess Mountbatten of Burma) but each one is specific. Can someone more knowledgeable than me confirm this or otherwise?

As far as land and property are concerned, surely an individual can leave their "wealth" however they wish, unless there is an entail which is legally binding which specifies to whom the inheritance is left.
Correct the Letters Patent are specific to each peerage. Some are heirs male and some are heirs general. In the case of the Mountbatten peerage the only 2 females eligible to inherit that title are Lady Patricia (the present Countess) and her younger sister Lady Pamela. Beyond that it is the heirs male of each who have succession rights, their daughters do not.
Family estates and wealth are not tied to the titles. An example of that would be the Dukes/Earls of Portland. Lady Anne Cavendish Bentinck inherited all of the real family assets while a distant cousin inherited the earldom (the dukedom became extinct). Lady Anne's fabulous jewel collection was sold at auction last year including the famous Portland Tiara.
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  #591  
Old 01-03-2013, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Isn't discriminatory to have a law that states only first born children can inherit? Couldn't the second born sue and say their rights are violated on account of not being lucky enough to be first born?
I would love to know where equality legislation ends.
It's not absolute equality people are trying to achieve - that is never possible. It is equality among genders that is the goal.

There has to be a determination as to who inherits somewhere, and it's most logical to make it the first born. If the laws of succession were changed so that it becomes a choice among the most deserving child, it becomes a slippery slope towards an elected head of state.
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  #592  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Correct the Letters Patent are specific to each peerage. Some are heirs male and some are heirs general. In the case of the Mountbatten peerage the only 2 females eligible to inherit that title are Lady Patricia (the present Countess) and her younger sister Lady Pamela. Beyond that it is the heirs male of each who have succession rights, their daughters do not.
Family estates and wealth are not tied to the titles. An example of that would be the Dukes/Earls of Portland. Lady Anne Cavendish Bentinck inherited all of the real family assets while a distant cousin inherited the earldom (the dukedom became extinct). Lady Anne's fabulous jewel collection was sold at auction last year including the famous Portland Tiara.
Thank you - reading this forum has taught me a lot! Interesting about other examples.
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  #593  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:19 PM
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In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters Patent have passed the Great Seal of the Realm dated the 26 May 2011 granting unto Her Majesty’s Grandson, His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales, K.G.,and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Carrickfergus,Earl of Strathearn, and Duke of Cambridge.

London Gazette Number 59798 Wednesday 1 June 2011

Interesting the Queen didn't seem to share the view of the gormless Deputy PM when she created William's Peerage
HM must have been forced to drink the kool-aid afterwards haha
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  #594  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
There has to be a determination as to who inherits somewhere, and it's most logical to make it the first born. If the laws of succession were changed so that it becomes a choice among the most deserving child, it becomes a slippery slope towards an elected head of state.
So we'd be going back to the way it was done before the Norman Invasion. My Anglo-Saxon ancestors say, "yay!".
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  #595  
Old 01-03-2013, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters Patent have passed the Great Seal of the Realm dated the 26 May 2011 granting unto Her Majesty’s Grandson, His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales, K.G.,and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten the dignities of Baron Carrickfergus,Earl of Strathearn, and Duke of Cambridge.

London Gazette Number 59798 Wednesday 1 June 2011

Interesting the Queen didn't seem to share the view of the gormless Deputy PM when she created William's Peerage
HM must have been forced to drink the kool-aid afterwards haha
It is the standard text of virtually any Letters Patent of a title's creation.
Besides, as far as I know, there are no plans to change peerage laws (and Dukedom of Cambridge is precisely that) - just laws of the succession to the Throne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
So we'd be going back to the way it was done before the Norman Invasion. My Anglo-Saxon ancestors say, "yay!".
True. Sometimes I think Witenagemot was the best system that could exist in regards to succession.

If an heir is chosen among the previous monarch's descendants, or in absence of those, descendants of his siblings, by a Council that, say, includes the first 12 people in the Line of Succession (who are of age), plus certain lawmakers, politicians, clergy and perhaps other dignitaries (representatives of the Realms), would it be that bad of a system?
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  #596  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:04 PM
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in theory it sounds ok, in practice it would be political (probably small "p" political)

We benefit by having a non-political head of state and this is achieved because election/selection other than by birth doesn't come into it.

EDIT: Should also add that lobbying and the press would be at the forefront and lobbying was definitely part of the background to the Witenagemot.
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  #597  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cepe View Post
in theory it sounds ok, in practice it would be political (probably small "p" political)

We benefit by having a non-political head of state and this is achieved because election/selection other than by birth doesn't come into it.
The hereditary principle is the only way, I agree.
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  #598  
Old 01-03-2013, 09:11 PM
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Knock yourselves out trying to figure out who is the most deserving. An idiotic expectation. Monarchy is this, too. But if the eldest is a boy or girl, anf then can inherit, at least there is some equity. As, today, they do nothing, it is of very little import.
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  #599  
Old 01-03-2013, 10:50 PM
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As, today, they do nothing, it is of very little import.
Maybe not from an American point of view but we view it differently.
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  #600  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:02 PM
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As, today, they do nothing, it is of very little import.
They do nothing for us, and we're stuck with one of them for our Head of State. A Head of State whose family actively campaigns against Australia for sporting events, and, I suspect, other, more important, matters like trade agreements.

I've said it before and I'm likely to say it again: I was a monarchist when I joined TRF, but now I'm a republican.
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