State Visit from the President of the United States: November 18-21, 2003

[Dennism]

For an explanation of Royal state visits and US Presidents go to

http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?pr...v-2003&prgId=17

Click on

Slate's Explainer: Rarity of Official State Visits

for the audio.

 

[A.C.C.]

A close picture of Queen Elizabeth II before the state banquet in honor of the Pres. and First Lady of the U.S. Nov. 19, 2003

 

[defalco]

Originally posted by A.C.C.@Nov 19th, 2003 - 3:46 pm
Pres. Bush and Laura Bush shaking hands with The Queen and Prince Philip.  I wonder why they didn't bow and curtsey?

They do not bow or curtsey because this is the same monarchy that they were fleeing from (and fighting against). Traditional rules of bowing are that you only must curtsey or bow if you are under the authority of that said monarch. (You can if you would like to, but you are not required.) Any American who meets the Queen is not supposed to bow as it would be a slap in the face to their forefathers.

 

[Binny]

Yes. Thanks, defalco. Thought it was something like that. They didn't fight the American Revolution for nothing!

 

[A.C.C.]

A general view of the ballroom during the state banquet.

 

[A.C.C.]

Pres. Bush making his speech at the state banquet. Nov. 19, 2003

 

[A.C.C.]

The Queen having a laugh during the President's speech at the state banquet in his honor at Buckingham Palace. Nov. 19, 2003.

 

[sara1981]

who been attend for banquet?

Sara Boyce

 

[A.C.C.]

The royals and the guest of honor, Pres. Bush standing for a toast at the state banquet. You can see Princess Anne, the Pres., The Queen, and Prince Philip in the picture.

 

[A.C.C.]

The two heads of state before the state banquet.

 

[Binny]

(AP Photo/APTN via Royal Pool)

 

[hrhcp]

A.C.C.  Posted: Nov 19th, 2003 - 3:46 pm

Pres. Bush and Laura Bush shaking hands with The Queen and Prince Philip. I wonder why they didn't bow and curtsey?

They're equals at representing their countries.

Similarily, you wouldn't expect King Albert of Beligum to bow to Queen Elizabeth of England ?

 

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by King Christian@Nov 19th, 2003 - 9:24 pm
They're equals at representing their countries.

Similarily, you wouldn't expect King Albert of Beligum to bow to Queen Elizabeth of England ?

I think some of the Kings and Queens do bow to each other, if only out of courtesy. Kings and Queens who have been ruling their countries for less time bow to Kings and Queens who have been ruling longer.

For example, I imagine that almost all the present royals would be required to bow to QEII. And say, King Albert would bow to Queen Margrethe who has been ruling since the early 1970s and King Albert since only the early 1980s?

 

[moosey60]

Are they long lost brothers? ...Or are they just distinct proof that we evolved from apes?

 

[Binny]

Originally posted by moosey60@Nov 19th, 2003 - 10:01 pm
Are they long lost brothers? ...Or are they just distinct proof that we evolved from apes?

Ha! You're terrible, moosey60! But you've made my day!

 

[hrhcp]

Binny  Posted: Nov 19th, 2003 - 10:06 pm

(moosey60 @ Nov 19th, 2003 - 10:01 pm)
Are they long lost brothers? ...Or are they just distinct proof that we evolved from apes?

Ha! You're terrible, moosey60! But you've made my day!

Both?!

Ha ha

 

[Dennism]

Are you sure about the 'evolved" part?

 

[justine]

Originally posted by defalco@Nov 19th, 2003 - 7:56 pm

They do not bow or curtsey because this is the same monarchy that they were fleeing from (and fighting against). Traditional rules of bowing are that you only must curtsey or bow if you are under the authority of that said monarch. (You can if you would like to, but you are not required.) Any American who meets the Queen is not supposed to bow as it would be a slap in the face to their forefathers. [/quote]
Hi...
I am curious to know where I can find this information at, and maybe more to read about it. What was the source for your information?

As for it being a slap to the American forefathers to curtsey to a British (or any) sovereign...well the great thing about America-the freedom we have, to chose to curtsey or not to a foreign sovereign/dignitary/etc.

Thanks

 

[hrhcp]

Alexandria  Posted: Nov 19th, 2003 - 9:36 pm

(King Christian @ Nov 19th, 2003 - 9:24 pm)
They're equals at representing their countries.

Similarily, you wouldn't expect King Albert of Beligum to bow to Queen Elizabeth of England ?

I think some of the Kings and Queens do bow to each other, if only out of courtesy.

Agreed.

Kings and Queens who have been ruling their countries for less time bow to Kings and Queens who have been ruling longer.

For example, I imagine that almost all the present royals would be required to bow to QEII. And say, King Albert would bow to Queen Margrethe who has been ruling since the early 1970s and King Albert since only the early 1980s?

I have a hard time with that position ..... that infers to me that (eg) the country of Belgium is inferior to the country of Denmark. From that point of view, I hardly thinks so, and remember that is who the king/queen represent, is their country and (all) its vested interests.

Sean might know better.

 

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by King Christian@Nov 19th, 2003 - 10:17 pm
I have a hard time with that position ..... that infers to me that (eg) the country of Belgium is inferior to the country of Denmark. From that point of view, I hardly thinks so, and remember that is who the king/queen represent, is their country and (all) its vested interests.

Sean might know better.

It's not about one country being more inferior to another or the exertion of superioity of another country's monarch over another, it's about the length of reign in comparison to each other. Queen Margrethe has been the monarch of her country longer than King Albert has been of his - clearly a fact - and if there is bowing to be done, he would bow to her out of respect because in a sense she is his "elder." By the same token, Queen Margrethe would bow to Queen Elizabeth II.

It's like the order of entrances or procession when many royals get together. For occasions like weddings or funerals, the monarchs and their partners proceed into churches, etc., based on the length of their reign.

If all monarchs are in attendance, Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Phillipp would enter the church first, followed by other monarchs. (Sorry, but the dates that various monarchs succeed to the throne is fuzzy for me, but I think you get the picture.) The one case I can remember it was different was the funeral procession for Prince Claus, in which the Spanish royals proceeded other royals (like perhaps the King and Queen of Sweden? ) despite the fact that they have been reigning for less time than their respective counterparts. But the reason for this is because the Spanish royals are closer friends of Queen Beatrix.

 

[A.C.C.]

Does anyone know where the return banquet that Pres. Bush is giving for The Royal Family will be held?

 

[Dennism]

I wonder then if that meant that when P'u Yi was rather old and had he met any royal then they surely would have had to bow to him because he became Emperor at a very young age.

 

[timtonruben359]

Originally posted by A.C.C.@Nov 19th, 2003 - 3:46 pm
Pres. Bush and Laura Bush shaking hands with The Queen and Prince Philip.  I wonder why they didn't bow and curtsey?

Foriegn heads of state don't bow or curstey when being presented to the Queen as they are not her subjects. Infact having to curstey or bow to the Queen is really a British thing. When the Queen is in Canada, Canadians don't bow or curstey to her even though she is Queen of Canada and we are technically her subjects.

 

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by timtonruben359@Nov 19th, 2003 - 10:36 pm
Foriegn heads of state don't bow or curstey when being presented to the Queen as they are not her subjects. Infact having to curstey or bow to the Queen is really a British thing. When the Queen is in Canada, Canadian don't bow or curstey to her even though she is Queen of Canada and we are technically her subjects.

But what about when Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Phillip visited Norway? There was a lot of chat about how good Mette-Marit's curtsey to the Queen was. And there were also pictures of Queen Sonja and Martha Louise bowing to the Queen, too.

And I recall that when Madonna (!) met the Queen for some movie premiere of hers in London, she bowed to the Queen.

I think that bowing or curtsying is not a requirement or a necessity, but it is a courtesy.

 

[Dennism]

I have a feeling though that royals are not going to emulate anything that Madonna does. That would be funny though.

"Prince Albert, where did you learn to do that dance move?"

"Well, I learned it from my friend Madonna of Michigan, or now Madonna of London".

 

[hrhcp]

Alexandria  Posted: Nov 19th, 2003 - 10:26 pm

Good points you make Alexandria.

It wouldn't surprise me if there is a pecking order among the Royals, and as you say courtesy is an inborn and ingrained thing in Europe.

In regards to order at weddings..... I have never observed that precedence based on length of reign before. If I am given an opportunity to see CP Fred's wedding on TV, I will for sure endeavour to look for that detail.
:flower:

 

[Alexandria]

Originally posted by Dennism@Nov 19th, 2003 - 10:47 pm
I have a feeling though that royals are not going to emulate anything that Madonna does. That would be funny though.

"Prince Albert, where did you learn to do that dance move?"

"Well, I learned it from my friend Madonna of Michigan, or now Madonna of London".

Or even funnier, if QEII picked up a dance move from Madonna!

 

[Dennism]

Actually, that would be scary!

 

[timtonruben359]

Reigning Monarchs don't bow or curtsey to each other. If a Monarch is in uniform when greeting another Monarch, he simply gives a salute. However certain Monarchs take precedence over others at royal functions. Queen Elizabeth II takes precedence over all European Monarchs because she has the most subjects (she is Queen of 13 countries). The only Monarch as far as I know that outranks Queen Elizabeth is the Emperor of Japan. At Royal Functions the Monarch with the highest precedence enters last and leaves first, expect if they are on their home turf then they take precedence over all Monarchs.

For example when the Crown Prince of Denmark gets married (and assuming all the reigning Monarchs were there) Queen Margrethe would be the last Monarch to arrive and the first to leave as she is Queen of Denmark, where the wedding is taking place. When foreign royalty is entering Queen Elizabeth II would be the last foreign Monarch to enter and the first foreign Monarch to leave as she has precedence over all the other monarchs as she has the most subjects.

The British Court goes a bit further, a Monarch's precedence also depends on how distantly related they are to the Queen. The closer they're related to her the more precedence they have.

It's confusing but I hope this makes some sort of sense.

 

[Binny]

I think you're right, Alexandria - about it not being a requirement or a necessity, but a courtesy.

These days, it's more about whatever a person feels comfortable doing..